Running Without A DBM...

[Styxz]

...Is going to take some getting used to, but I love it.

The flashpoints are fun as hell, when you have players that know how to play.

That said, I've noticed an incredible amount of bad play (standing in bad, melee dps just standing not attacking etc etc). I wonder if our coveted add on environments from other games have helped mask the bad players even more than I thought? 0.o

[Nino]

yeah people in some cases probably did/do rely on add ons a bit too much and may feel like a fish out of water when they are playing w/o them
on the other hand some people you have ran across may just be new to mmo play-style altogether

but you should see people doing better as a whole when it goes live and more experienced mmo players are on

[Deleted]

I really hate the term 'bad player'. It's a convenient scapegoat used when an impatient player cannot take the time or effort to simply teach another gamer what to do. The game is currently in the beta testing period, so it should be obvious that most players are still getting their footing and tackling stuff at their own pace. If someone isn't performing as well as they could do, or making a mistake - politely point it out and offer them help. Heck, I've made most of my friends that way. We were all newbies once, so a little empathy goes a long way.

[DaGhostDS]

You play the game, not your addon.
This is the way game should be played.

[Blood Crusade]

I really hate the term 'bad player'. It's a convenient scapegoat used when an impatient player cannot take the time or effort to simply teach another gamer what to do. The game is currently in the beta testing period, so it should be obvious that most players are still getting their footing and tackling stuff at their own pace. If someone isn't performing as well as they could do, or making a mistake - politely point it out and offer them help. Heck, I've made most of my friends that way. We were all newbies once, so a little empathy goes a long way.

I agree with you, and at the same time I don't. Yeah, sure, most players, when they just get into...well anything, will need some guidance. This includes myself. At times, I don't mind helping others out with small things. There are times however, when someone truly is just a "bad player", in my humble opinion. My example is someone leveling to max level and not understanding the basic mechanics of their class. There are also people that (pointing out the last two sentences of your post) that get angry when you attempt to politely correct them. I've been called an asshole and a prick when all I said was "Hey guys, can I get some help on the adds."

[Astounded]

I really hate the term 'bad player'. It's a convenient scapegoat used when an impatient player cannot take the time or effort to simply teach another gamer what to do. The game is currently in the beta testing period, so it should be obvious that most players are still getting their footing and tackling stuff at their own pace. If someone isn't performing as well as they could do, or making a mistake - politely point it out and offer them help. Heck, I've made most of my friends that way. We were all newbies once, so a little empathy goes a long way.

How can you say it's a scapegoat? The reality is there are legitimately terrible players out there. Are we wrong for expecting people to understand their class and how to play it?

Call me impatient if you will but I'm not going out of my way to teach people not to stand in shit that will kill them.

[Deleted]

I agree with you, and at the same time I don't. Yeah, sure, most players, when they just get into...well anything, will need some guidance. This includes myself. At times, I don't mind helping others out with small things. There are times however, when someone truly is just a "bad player", in my humble opinion. My example is someone leveling to max level and not understanding the basic mechanics of their class. There are also people that (pointing out the last two sentences of your post) that get angry when you attempt to politely correct them. I've been called an asshole and a prick when all I said was "Hey guys, can I get some help on the adds."

Oh, there's definitely a lot of people like that present in MMORPG's, unfortunately. Though to be fair, that mentality seemed to spread after the dungeon finder was implemented. When groups are sought out and created without such tools, I find I have a much more enjoyable experience. Since I tend to go down such a route, I haven't really encountered much hostility - but then I tend to keep to myself and help out others when and where I can. Gaming as a whole has become more mainstream and sadly as a result...it has also become more hostile.

[Deleted]

Havent used dbm in wow since ToC personally and yeh already seen lots of people just not move from things on swtor. the big purple circle followed by lightning generally means move out of it

1st day of firelands and everyones broken dbm's so they didnt notice traps spawning them on was one hilarious night for me.

[Daedelus]

As a seasoned wow raider, as soon as I see anything on the ground I GTFO of it. At the moment I'm probably jumping out of 'friendly' stuff but I sure as hell don't take any risks.

The other thing that people will have to start doing is reading their debuffs and boss buffs.

I much prefer it, as long as their is some physical/audible indication of buffs/debuffs

[mystik]

I hate when DBM and most addons have done to the community they think they can't play without them and DMB practically plays for you with dumbing shit down. I hate the concept of dumbing shit down which blizzard seems to love. I'm all for NOTHING like DMB ever being added.

[varkiriel]

As I wow player, I have to admit I use DBM and tend to rely on it quite a lot with the newer encounters. I actually found TOR quite enjoyable and didn't mind the lack of it in TOR at all. It made the screen less cluttered and I focused on the fight rather than watching my addons

[Sparkconater]

I don't blame the community for making things easier. I DO think that DBM is the product of gimmick based mechanics not actually challenging players to be good, but for players to mindlessly move from spot to spot. I've never been a fan of the move here dodge this mechanic. There are many more ways to make things challenging, that require players to be good without addons.

[varkiriel]

I don't blame the community for making things easier. I DO think that DBM is the product of gimmick based mechanics not actually challenging players to be good, but for players to mindlessly move from spot to spot. I've never been a fan of the move here dodge this mechanic. There are many more ways to make things challenging, that require players to be good without addons.

This is why my guild, and many others I suspect, require DBM. There are too many encounters where it's move now to avoid black/green/red/whatever crap.

[Gorsameth]

I don't blame the community for making things easier. I DO think that DBM is the product of gimmick based mechanics not actually challenging players to be good, but for players to mindlessly move from spot to spot. I've never been a fan of the move here dodge this mechanic. There are many more ways to make things challenging, that require players to be good without addons.

Then name 20 different ways of doing this.
Because any succesfull mmo is going to have dozens upon dozens of fights that have to challenge its players in some way.
Movement based mechanics are easy to understand for someone of average intelligence while combined with other mechanics can create fun fights.

As for the whole DBM stuff.
Having raided since MC ive used it on and off and so long as there are signs given by the encounter they are totaly not needed, be that emotes or stuff on the ground.
I for one hope Bioware doesnt not allow for 3e party addons at all. And instead implements the needed things themselves (target of target really would be nice )
Tomany wow players think that its impossible to play without em while in reality they are just crutches keeping up tho who cant otherwise manage.

[Dakia]

The existence of DBM simply increased the number of gimmicky mechanics in boss fights that have been added over the years. If you go back and look, a lot of the boss fights from earlier in WoW where much more simple.

The lack of a DBM will just mean slightly more simplistic encounters, but that is something that I am okay with.

[Jervaise]

I really hate the term 'bad player'. It's a convenient scapegoat used when an impatient player cannot take the time or effort to simply teach another gamer what to do. The game is currently in the beta testing period, so it should be obvious that most players are still getting their footing and tackling stuff at their own pace. If someone isn't performing as well as they could do, or making a mistake - politely point it out and offer them help. Heck, I've made most of my friends that way. We were all newbies once, so a little empathy goes a long way.

Actually bad player is a polite term. There are people that repeatedly do the same mistake although being completely aware of the mechanics and the required response. If a person is failing on the same movement for the 7th time, calling them bad players is only a polite complaint. Many would insult them. Again the description of insult suggests a case of aspersion. Yet calling a man "woman" may occur as an insult due to the nature of the man not being woman, this doesn't imply being a woman is a bad thing. Vice versa calling a woman "man" is equally insulting. So why calling **** people bad players is bad i could never understand. At most it is a compliment.

On topic: DBM's value in wow has decreased a lot lately, yet not many notice this. The encounters themselves include many warnings and a dungeon journal that basically covers the use of DBM. I hope no similar tool is ever released for tor, it increases the challenge factor through real methods. After DBM wow mechanics had to be artificially toughened in order to keep the level of challenge similar. Having 15 different fire patches to watch out with timer bars and full screen warnings and having one unexpected fire patch might turn out equally difficult to manage, yet is not as fun. Raiding in wow is too mechanical atm. Hope tor won't repeat the same mistake.

[Styxz]

I really hate the term 'bad player'. It's a convenient scapegoat used when an impatient player cannot take the time or effort to simply teach another gamer what to do. The game is currently in the beta testing period, so it should be obvious that most players are still getting their footing and tackling stuff at their own pace. If someone isn't performing as well as they could do, or making a mistake - politely point it out and offer them help. Heck, I've made most of my friends that way. We were all newbies once, so a little empathy goes a long way.

Bad players are the ones that don't want to hear advice or flatly ignore it and ultimately continue to underperform.

I ran mammer station with a few guys and we did fine up till the last boss. The tank was cool as hell as a person, but he was bad. I kept telliing the party to move out of the red asap and kill adds, while getting behind the boss when he says "your blood is weak (or w/e he says)." The tank simply sat in the sam spot and got hit by all the things each attempt and when we brought in another dps, he did the same thing.

That's bad play. I wasn't mean to him or anything, just noted to self he was bad. It really showed how some players are terrible w/o addons.

As far as addons in general, I would at least like a recount and ui customizations; a threat meter would be nice too. This argument has been beaten to death, but such toools are very useful indeed.

[vian]

I haven't used DBM since Ulduar : )

[Kirsae]

Interesting things happen when a game's essence is boiled down to a combination of trying to make raiding available to everyone, and what's my next upgrade. Namely, certain things which were commonplace in WoW (such as helping people learn aspects of a class or game) are now regarded as obstacles towards your personal goal. In addition, there's no penalty for not performing well. Someone can have a wonky spec, not enchant/gem, have low dps/heal/threat and yet they still expect to raid because that's the environment that's been presented.

I agree with you, and at the same time I don't. Yeah, sure, most players, when they just get into...well anything, will need some guidance. This includes myself. At times, I don't mind helping others out with small things. There are times however, when someone truly is just a "bad player", in my humble opinion. My example is someone leveling to max level and not understanding the basic mechanics of their class.

How can you say it's a scapegoat? The reality is there are legitimately terrible players out there. Are we wrong for expecting people to understand their class and how to play it?

Call me impatient if you will but I'm not going out of my way to teach people not to stand in shit that will kill them.

Yes, there are players who don't understand their class and have reached max level, there are players with low situational awareness, there are players who get angry when they're told they're playing wrong. The misconception repeated here, and in the community in general, is that players who are your "obstacles" regardless of their deficiency are grouped into one all encompassing "bad" description.

Some of these things can be easily corrected with time, others can't. In any case, I believe the ones that can't are really the exception and not the rule.


Regarding DBM, a funny thing happened when I used to raid lead in TBC; I used to call out in vent (in addition to DBM announcing it) certain things until we realized that people weren't moving out of bad shit until they heard me say it. People can become complacent if their environment allows them to be. I'm all for something that challenges folks, and doesn't tell them what to do or when to do it.

[Skippy88]

So, far I've been pretty good at running out of bads but I have found on my Imperial Agent I've been pulling aggro on the tanks. On one attempt I even tried to dps softly for the first few seconds and even that didn't work out. TOR is really starting to remind me of WOW a bit circa classic/BC.