why Hiroshima or Nagasaki?

[Speaknoevil]

Estimates that were given to the president were that of atleast a million american troops lives, if we indeed did invade Japan.

The loss to Japan would be much much higher as well.

Collateral damage in fact was avoided by using the nuclear bombs.

Pinpoint strikes were possible, we could have razed all of their factories and blockaded them.

It wasn't a black and white scenario.

[logintime]

Estimates that were given to the president were that of atleast a million american troops lives, if we indeed did invade Japan.

The loss to Japan would be much much higher as well.

Collateral damage in fact was avoided by using the nuclear bombs.

except, again, there were other options beyond invading. Like perhaps allowing Japan the one condition they were seeking for surrender (as shown earlier on this thread), and which they received from McArthur anyway. Or by blockade. Or by denotation in a less urban area.

This wasn't a binary choice. It wasn't "drop the bomb or invade the islands". There were a lot of different ways it could have gone, some better than others.

[Wells]

Pinpoint strikes were possible, we could have razed all of their factories and blockaded them.

It wasn't a black and white scenario.

"pin point strikes"?

Right.

And you don't think a blockade hurts civilians?

[Catta]

Such a child.

I'm done with this thread, at least a few people tried to be intelligent in it. There always have to be ignorant thick skulled morons in these kinda of threads that have to ruin the discussion for others. /mourn

again tell me how this is different... I think both of them are bad, the guy i quoted thinks one of them was bad and the other was good

[redruMPanda]

I'd hate to tell you guys this, but 99% of you are wrong. It wasn't about psychological warfare, nor was it just bc it was populated. It was bombed because of the factories that were there. They each held factories that served as both military and economical areas of interest. and if I"m not mistaken a major military arms factory was in one of the cities.

[Boathouse]

First thing that need addressed. The Japanese terms of surrender BEFORE the bombs were dropped were not agreeable, and the emperor was not willing to negotiate the terms.
Secondly, they attacked first. Someone slaps your sister, you just going to slap them back? No, you're going to break their face. Or get them thrown in jail. A fate far worse than a slap.
Third, as to people saying it was a government/military thing and citizens shouldn't have been harmed. Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the government represent the people? Making everything the government does (In a setting of a war, especially one with an Emperor) exactly what the people want/need. It wasn't just an attack on the civilians, they were Japanese, the very same Japanese that dropped the first bombs on us. No different in the eyes of war. The fact that we spare citizens for the MOST part is because we try to follow the rules of war, which do actually exist.

And yes, if they bombed New York after we bombed their military base, yes, we did have it coming. It was a choice and risk they were willing to take by initiating combat. When they dropped a bomb they KNEW they risked civilian lives, they took some of ours as well. The government KNEW what we were capable of, KNEW what we had, and KNEW we weren't afraid to do it. They were spitting in a pit bulls face hoping for it to back down.

[Speaknoevil]

"pin point strikes"?

Right.

And you don't think a blockade hurts civilians?

hurting =/= killing

[Baene]

The weather at nagasaki i believe wasn't "good" like everyone is saying the bomb really was about 1mile off the bomb had a radius of 5miles the us had strategic reasoning for this bomb

[Surfd]

Simply put, the americans knew they couldn't have stopped the Japanese army in a proper way, so they had to go for this back door, even though they did warn the japanese what is about to come, unlike the japanese who raided pearl harbour without warning.

At the end of the day, you just have to blame the japanese themselves for not being able to defend their own citizens.

o.0 WHAT?

Going to post this YET AGAIN. Maybe I will keep posting it untill it becomes evident that people actually read it:

http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v16/v16n3p-4_Weber.html.

READ IT.

The Japanese had been attempting to negotiate peace since as early as JANUARY of 1945. They KEPT TRYING TO NEGOTIATE PEACE for the full 8 months between then and when the bombs were actually dropped. How exactly do you "fail to protect your citizens", when the people you are fighting with are actively IGNORING your efforts to end the war, just so they can throw away the lives of both sides military and civilians in a fit of childish pique because the agressor attacked first and without warning.

The bombing was not about "forceing peace" or "stopping the war", the Japanese had been trying for both. Hell, even the EMPEROR himself was actively commanding diplomats to end the damn thing by almost any means nessicary well before the americans blew two cities to hell.

The bombing was about the americans showing the japanese who is boss, on their own terms, pure and simple. It's was practically the equivilent of kicking a man while he is down on bended knee begging for forgiveness.

[Wells]

hurting =/= killing

No one ever starves or dies from infection.

[dim]

the way i see it...it was a revenge, a payback. The war in Europe ended, Americans were unnecessery losing ppl on Pacific and they want it to stop. So they nuked Hiroshima. If they said then, you have 24 hrs to unconditionaly surrender or we will drop A-bomb on random city every 24 hrs till you surrender......they would surrender ofc.

But Nagasaki bomb was a revenge, for all Americans that got killed. You can now debate about industrial/military target....but at that point Japan was on his knees, so the industrial towns or military complex was just an excuse. American forces were tired, Americans at home wanted justice in any type and they got it.

we can also debate why did Brits burned Dresden. First they destroyed it with high explosive bombs then they burn the town with incinerete bombs. You can also say, Dresden was industrial town with military importance. But at that point, Germany was pretty much defeated. They didnt have resources to do anything with that industry. Dresden became a refuge center and Brits wipe it out. Nobody even knows how many ppl was burned alive cuz new refugies were constantly coming in.

So why did they do it - revenge for every bomb that hit UK towns. Even Churchill distanced himself from that order. War changes ppl in many ways and many times the inoccent ppl die for it.

[Catta]

If you expect for something different then you are sadly mistaken because is the truth. For every action there is an equal or greater reaction, it is a simple fact of LIFE. Whatever you find it morally wrong or not it does not mean it shouldn't have happen or people shouldn't have seen it coming. The US was being an idiot for getting into a war that did not concern them, same with the UK. Terrorist attacks do not happen just because, there has to be a reason for the group to hate you they don't just pick a random country and decide to throw planes at them but the reaction was the US army attacking them in return and being assholes to them, what exactly did they expect? For the US to sit and be joyful? No, but now they bitch about the US being heartless when the US this time is at least attempting not to hurt civilians.

i have not mentioned the US way of retaliation but since you mention it... dont you think that killing civilians, even if its accidental, will create even more fanatics...?

also what i find immoral is irrelevant, i am merely pointing out cognitive dissonance

[logintime]

Third, as to people saying it was a government/military thing and citizens shouldn't have been harmed. Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the government represent the people?

Not when your government is a military-run facist state, it doesn't.

[Boathouse]

o.0 WHAT?

Going to post this YET AGAIN. Maybe I will keep posting it untill it becomes evident that people actually read it:

http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v16/v16n3p-4_Weber.html.

READ IT.

The Japanese had been attempting to negotiate peace since as early as JANUARY of 1945. They KEPT TRYING TO NEGOTIATE PEACE for the full 8 months between then and when the bombs were actually dropped. How exactly do you "fail to protect your citizens", when the people you are fighting with are actively IGNORING your efforts to end the war, just so they can throw away the lives of both sides military and civilians in a fit of childish pique because the agressor attacked first and without warning.

The bombing was not about "forceing peace" or "stopping the war", the Japanese had been trying for both. Hell, even the EMPEROR himself was actively commanding diplomats to end the damn thing by almost any means nessicary well before the americans blew two cities to hell.

The bombing was about the americans showing the japanese who is boss, on their own terms, pure and simple. It's was practically the equivilent of kicking a man while he is down on bended knee begging for forgiveness.

The request for surrender wasn't ignored, the terms were. They weren't agreeable terms.

[ishootblanks]

they were both towns that produced a lot of military supplies.. unlike most nations at the time.. Japan had many many small production facilities spread throughout cities to prevent military production facilities from being primary targets.. and to spread the production around so that they don't lose it all... believe it or not.. the Japanese up until that point were pretty damn good at war..

the USA was LUCKY that Japan thought we had more nukes or WW2 would have been much much uglier..

[Aethilus]

They were military targets to begin with, civilian casualties were not desired. Also, Nagasaki wasn't the primary target of the second bombing. The primary target of the second bombing was Kokura

A great documentary detailing many things that aren't known by the general public regarding the bombings is below.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hiroshima_(film)

[Speaknoevil]

No one ever starves or dies from infection.

It wouldn't have needed to go that far.

The Japanese had been attempting to negotiate peace since as early as JANUARY of 1945. They KEPT TRYING TO NEGOTIATE PEACE for the full 8 months between then and when the bombs were actually dropped. How exactly do you "fail to protect your citizens", when the people you are fighting with are actively IGNORING your efforts to end the war, just so they can throw away the lives of both sides military and civilians in a fit of childish pique because the agressor attacked first and without warning.

The bombing was not about "forceing peace" or "stopping the war", the Japanese had been trying for both. Hell, even the EMPEROR himself was actively commanding diplomats to end the damn thing by almost any means nessicary well before the americans blew two cities to hell.

The bombing was about the americans showing the japanese who is boss, on their own terms, pure and simple. It's was practically the equivilent of kicking a man while he is down on bended knee begging for forgiveness.

Here in the US we teach our children that US history is justified, and the our government makes the best choices it can for the good of the most people.

Ah US schools.

[logintime]

The request for surrender wasn't ignored, the terms were. They weren't agreeable terms.

yep, they were so disagreeable that McArthur did exactly that.

[Boathouse]

It does though, that's the point. In Japan at the time the civilians were nothing. The Emperor and the military made all the decisions for the people. As much as it does suck on their end, the government sacrificed them, the government wasn't afraid, and can seem it all they want after they made terms of surrender, etc. They did not care at first. The only reason they even agreed to surrender the way they did was because the terms didn't have the emperor relinquishing his position.(Which the US decided they wanted him there anyway)

yep, they were so disagreeable that McArthur did exactly that.

Sadly. The terms weren't up to a general to decide.

[macdisciple]

Nagasaki was bombed just because it had the best weather of any of the possible target cities that day.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_...ice_of_targets

There you go.

This is true, Nagasaki was a secondary target that day.

Having lived in Japan just twenty years after the bombings it was quite amazing how the Japanese embraced my family with open arms and never a hint of anger. Japan is a fascinating country with a great culture.