Questing and Dialogue: Why it's Limited in Choice

[nyoan]

This is just something I've run into with critiques with the game thus far. Usually folks point out that choices don't matter too much and there aren't that many of them in quests. I agree there are limits, but those limits aren't just conceptual, they are related to manpower and time.

If you have the modding bug like me, you like creating content for games you play. Some content is easier than other types: like new maps for a FPS. You only have to make the map and test it. Lots of fun.

Other processes are more time consuming and freakishly annoying to map out. Mapping out dialogue trees is one of those things. Try getting into a game like Neverwinter Nights content creation side and put together Bioware-style dialogue trees. It is perhaps the most time-consuming and tedious thing in the world. You have to keep track of every possible choice, where that choice can lead, what they choose finally does for the quest, and then track that choice through the rest of the game.

You can easily spend hours setting up a handful of NPCs dialogue trees if you do it willy-nilly, and slightly less time if you map things out before hand. But, either way its an incredible time sink that knows no ends. There's a reason I ended up just DMing conversations in NWN: it sucked up all the time I could use for more impressivve content like maps and mobs and traps, etc.

What Bioware has done with SWTOR and the dialogue and voice overs is impressive, and if they can keep it up over several years it will represent a masterful mastery of workflow that I'd love to get a peek at (I'm a Ph.D. student in Professional and Technical Writing, so I nerd out on workflows).


Just some thoughts and a response to a often-heard critique.

[ptwonline]

I agree. With dialogue, VO, and choices like this in a MMO it's hard to allow TOO much branching of choices without ultimately making your game too small because you spent most of your time on stuff people won't see.

But people will still complain. Mostly it falls under the "What I don't understand must be easy" category of criticism, like so much else I have seen.

[dekcahw]

Just a thought, your fps map comparison isn't really fair.

If you want to setup a crappy dialogue tree it won't take long, if you want a good one it will take forever.
If you want to pump out a mediocre fps map it won't take long, but there is and will only ever be one dust2.

[Hulari]

I know exactly what you mean, I too had a look at the neverwinter nights toolset(brilliant game) and got lost and annoyed in the dialogue creation wizard. It took an absolute monstrous amount of time to set up conversations and decisions.

Bioware have done a grand job and the story lines are brilliant.

[philefluxx]

I agree 100% with the OP. A lot of these critics have not even leveled much past 20. They have no idea how some of the dialogue choices made between lvl 1-15 have permanent effects down the road between lvl 35-50. Mapping all of this for 8 individual stories must have been amazing to complete.

[Eggoman]

This is just something I've run into with critiques with the game thus far. Usually folks point out that choices don't matter too much and there aren't that many of them in quests. I agree there are limits, but those limits aren't just conceptual, they are related to manpower and time.

If you have the modding bug like me, you like creating content for games you play. Some content is easier than other types: like new maps for a FPS. You only have to make the map and test it. Lots of fun.

Other processes are more time consuming and freakishly annoying to map out. Mapping out dialogue trees is one of those things. Try getting into a game like Neverwinter Nights content creation side and put together Bioware-style dialogue trees. It is perhaps the most time-consuming and tedious thing in the world. You have to keep track of every possible choice, where that choice can lead, what they choose finally does for the quest, and then track that choice through the rest of the game.

You can easily spend hours setting up a handful of NPCs dialogue trees if you do it willy-nilly, and slightly less time if you map things out before hand. But, either way its an incredible time sink that knows no ends. There's a reason I ended up just DMing conversations in NWN: it sucked up all the time I could use for more impressivve content like maps and mobs and traps, etc.

What Bioware has done with SWTOR and the dialogue and voice overs is impressive, and if they can keep it up over several years it will represent a masterful mastery of workflow that I'd love to get a peek at (I'm a Ph.D. student in Professional and Technical Writing, so I nerd out on workflows).


Just some thoughts and a response to a often-heard critique.

One thought is "too much work" or "too hard" is never an excuse no matter how you slice it, its an indirect way of saying " I just didn't want to do it".

But because of the quality of the game so far I tend to think that they didn't add super complex dialogue trees because they didn't have enough time, not because it was too much work. Given an infinite amount of time I'm sure they could have an infinite amount of dialogue but at some point they need to strike a balance between getting the game out and making a super complex dialogue tree that maybe 2% of the population would even see.

My second thought is, how many people that have critiqued the dialogue have actually gone through and seen how far the trees will go? The first time I went through the Bounty Hunter I picked all Dark side options and the dialogue was straight forward. The second time I went through I tried to pick the dialogue that would seem to go the furthest, this involved light side and dark side choices. I was surprised at how different certain things could turn out and how sometimes I could get a few extra credits or split the dark/light side points 50/50. In one of the flash points I found a dialogue change yielded a chest we could loot, and another for the smuggler I think let me get some favors from two women while my friend who was also a smuggler doing the same quest never saw the women. I also think that if you just click through the dialogue you miss out on dark/light side point opportunities.

My opinion is the dialogue tree is deep enough where it allows people that want to explore it can and it will feel rewarding but not ridiculous.

[ZeroWashu]

What Bioware has done with SWTOR and the dialogue and voice overs is impressive, and if they can keep it up over several years it will represent a masterful mastery of workflow that I'd love to get a peek at (I'm a Ph.D. student in Professional and Technical Writing, so I nerd out on workflows).


Just some thoughts and a response to a often-heard critique.

If it were not for their voice acting and Star Wars IP this game would have been toast. The voice acting is so well done and by far is such a redeeming feature it alone will have me play the game, now if I can just ignore the rest of it and SW freaks it might be fine.

[Deleted]

And then put in the fact that this is an MMO: you can't have these huge-impact dialogue options because the world has to stay the same for everyone else.

[Deleted]

I agree 100% with the OP. A lot of these critics have not even leveled much past 20. They have no idea how some of the dialogue choices made between lvl 1-15 have permanent effects down the road between lvl 35-50. Mapping all of this for 8 individual stories must have been amazing to complete.

Yes I agree. Also quite a lot of the conversation choices in past Bioware games led to a "why would I want to do that" type response from NPCs which in turn meant you just had to choose one of the other options afterwards anyway

On my Imperial Agent on live I think I won't try antagonising the Sith dude in Kaas city as it didn't go down too well lol.

[gherkin]

imo add Siri to SWTOR.

You: Siri, tell this jackhole I am sick and tired of his bs whining.
Siri: You seem upset. I told him where to go, how to get there, and you gained 50 dark side points. Additionally, his firstborn will die.


Thanks Siri!

[Deleted]

And then put in the fact that this is an MMO: you can't have these huge-impact dialogue options because the world has to stay the same for everyone else.

Also as above sometimes additional options just give the illusion of choice: either no proper dialogue off a couple of the possible options or it makes the NPC stop talking to you which I would rather not do with no way to reload an old save

[gherkin]

And then put in the fact that this is an MMO: you can't have these huge-impact dialogue options because the world has to stay the same for everyone else.

You can have huge impact dialogue that changes dialogue for you. You can even have different quest outcomes where you murder the quest giver for his apprentice to usurp him. You just have to account for everything - later in the game, the apprentice is the quest giver to you and the master is the quest giver to someone else, but the quest is the same.

Net result: illusion of choice, but the illusion IS the game. If it were actually choice, it wouldn't be multiplayer. It would be co-op.

[Drihan]

BioWare could have done A LOT more with the dialog tress, making them more extensive and make each choice mean more, but that would just risk paradoxes to form - You kill one NPC during a convo, your friend doesn't -> in an instance he's the main quest npc, what will happen to you?. Those types of paradoxes could be worked out by having a substitute NPC that says the same things and has the same convo choices as the original, but it would just make things awkward, difficult to code and make it fit into the scenario.

If they manage to keep the conversation choices mean as much as they do now to you, but as little as they do in the grander scheme, they will do very well. I just hope they don't go completely overboard and tire themselves out on it, and forget about making gameplay content aswell. I have faith in BioWare, but there is always the possibility (Speaking from experience dealing with the PMSing of WoW's up-and-downs).

[Deleted]

@Drihan, I thought exactly what you said in your first paragraph after reading Gherkin's post. It would technically be possible but would likely lead to horrible plot holes, which I am sure are already a nightmare to cover without giving players more dialogue options.

Even being able to properly interact with NPCs in an MMO is so refreshing from the normal accept/exit options.

[nyoan]

You can have huge impact dialogue that changes dialogue for you. You can even have different quest outcomes where you murder the quest giver for his apprentice to usurp him. You just have to account for everything - later in the game, the apprentice is the quest giver to you and the master is the quest giver to someone else, but the quest is the same.

Net result: illusion of choice, but the illusion IS the game. If it were actually choice, it wouldn't be multiplayer. It would be co-op.

Very glad to hear that. Only got through the first 12 or so myself.

Also, the FPS map point is a bit unfair, yes.

Though, in regards to the comment that too much work isn't an excuse, I believe it can very much be an excuse. When you are developing a product, you must make a choice between continued development and a larger footprint and getting money for what you've got. Generally speaking you always hit a point where you have to push out what you've got, and you've got to design your game at a scope you can afford to finish. Otherwise you end up never finishing or have to roll it out iteratively in small bursts (which would get large in an 8 class game story wise)

Also glad to know branches are different according to approach (dark/light)

[Deleted]

You can have huge impact dialogue that changes dialogue for you. You can even have different quest outcomes where you murder the quest giver for his apprentice to usurp him. You just have to account for everything - later in the game, the apprentice is the quest giver to you and the master is the quest giver to someone else, but the quest is the same.

Net result: illusion of choice, but the illusion IS the game. If it were actually choice, it wouldn't be multiplayer. It would be co-op.

ehhhhh no, there is no "illusion". for example: in a quest of the bounty hunter storyline, a man ask you to purify the water of a refinery, and a women see you talking with the guy and ask you to close the valves of the refinery, because the toxin used to purify the water transform the animals in monsters. so you have 2 quest in 1, purify the water or close the valves. the 2 quest are in the same area, but you do one of the 2 things, and complete the quest on differents npcs.

is fun to level a character and a brilliant mode of making you leveling alts, because you dont make the same quests ever and ever and ever until lvl 85 with all your alts

[gherkin]

ehhhhh no, there is no "illusion". for example: in a quest of the bounty hunter storyline, a man ask you to purify the water of a refinery, and a women see you talking with the guy and ask you to close the valves of the refinery, because the toxin used to purify the water transform the animals in monsters. so you have 2 quest in 1, purify the water or close the valves. the 2 quest are in the same area, but you do one of the 2 things, and complete the quest on differents npcs.

is fun to level a character and a brilliant mode of making you leveling alts, because you dont make the same quests ever and ever and ever until lvl 85 with all your alts

Depends on how granular you want to go.

It's a choice in that you decided to pick one NPC to hand the quest into over another, but it does not impact anything other than your personal experience. I did this quest and chose to go back, but my group picked destroy the tanks. I still had to defend them as they did their option. My choice was to simply not participate in the quest activity (clicking the tanks) but I still had to participate in combat, navigation, etc.

My dialogue choices were made but I still had to participate. Illusion of choice.

Question: Is it still an illusion if everyone picks the same option?

[nyoan]

Something has been added over at DarthHater on the subject: http://www.darthhater.com/articles/e...rlasting-world

Rather good read I thought.

[Semihage]

You are correct in a sense that it probably won't affect item reward.. But consider that Bioware meant for this to be story driven, it does feel different when you are facing a choice of letting someone go or kill him outright (and I believe you get a small credit in the mail box later on as well).

I personally don't believe the ONLY thing that matters when playing an MMO is the kind of loot you get. So IMO, the choices are there and the reward is for me to witness the different reactions.

And to argue against that article, you cannot save/reload and pick a different choice in that conversation and see the reaction.. Those reactions are "contents" as well.. so even though you can alter the dark side/light side points through crafts or improve companion relation with gift. Your choice has made you to only witness a certain content and missed the other one unless you decide to reroll.