2013 NBA Season News and Discussion

[conscript]

I actually think these slots are interesting. If the Wizards and Cavs can stay healthy (huge ifs), both are pretty interesting teams. When Nene and Wall were both in the lineup last year, the Wiz were about .500 and looked the part. They'll roll out what looks to be a competent starting lineup of Wall, Beal, Otto Porter, Okafor, and Nene. Eric Maynor is a big upgrade over the Garrett Temples of the world as a backup point guard, Martell Webster brings competent shooting and defense on the wing, and if any of the Booker/Vesely/Seraphin group can give them anything at all, that's actually a decent enough team.

If Wall can continue progressing with his shooting like he did in the second half of last season, the Wizards could be pretty decent (up until the inevitable Wizards implosion that always happens). As for the Cavs, they have to show me for me to believe. I don't like what they did in the draft at all. I think Bennett is a bad pick especially when you just used a first round pick (4th) on your starting PF TWO YEARS AGO. Unless they are moving Bennett to the 3 in which case, who knows. It fits his size better, but I don't know if that guy has the athleticism to guard 3s. Their other 1st round pick of the Russian kid won't factor in for a year or two. If Kyrie and Bynum are healthy though, they should be decent. I don't know if Bynum can even bowl without getting hurt though, let alone play basketball and I love Kyrie, but I'm betting he throws an overhand pass too hard and tears his rotator cuff.

[buck008]

I think those last 2 to 3 spots are going to be the only interesting races in the East. We all know who the best four teams are. We know that Miami and Brooklyn are probably not going to give much of a shit about the regular season and will rest guys as much as possible. The only real question is Rose's health and how good Chicago will be (I could see them sitting anywhere from 1-4). The Knicks will be inconsistent as always but are probably still the 5 seed. So seeing who is going to step up and take those last spots will be entertaining. It's also entirely possible that a young, athletic team like Cleveland could sneak up on an older team like the Nets in the first round. I'd like their chances better in the old 5 game first round series, but it could happen.

[Blueobelisk]

Funny story about Knicks, apparently they're letting Melo choose the 2015 roster after everyone gets off the books. It's kind of a ploy for him to stay I guess since he can opt out of his contract end of this season.

OH. SHIT. SON. You remember when I said this shit above? Apparently Lebron is "strongly considering Knicks" in 2015. :OOOO

Melo + Lebron + who else can we get?

[Stommped]

OH. SHIT. SON. You remember when I said this shit above? Apparently Lebron is "strongly considering Knicks" in 2015. :OOOO

Melo + Lebron + who else can we get?

A whole bunch of vet minimum guys because those two alone will hit the salary cap. You have to feel like Lebron feels like he is underpaid since he makes 11 MILLION less than Kobe does per year. He already has a few titles under his belt, I feel like he is going to try to break the bank with his next contract.

[Blueobelisk]

I don't know about that Stompped, if it meant good players I think Lebron would be willing to take a slight pay cut, again. And Kobe Bryant is fucking Kobe Bryant, richest NBA player and LAL superstar past 15+ years.

More so than not I think the Knicks are willing to throw a little money in if they can get a championship roster. Not a LOT of extra money (certainly not Nets level) but NY is the most expensive NBA franchise/team valued at over a $bil, they can spare a little cash.

I'm sure Knicks could get a 3rd superstar there, it's just a question of who's coming off their contract in 2015. Not Bosh. I don't see Wade leaving Heat. Can't think of anyone else off the top of my head.

[Stommped]

I don't know about that Stompped, if it meant good players I think Lebron would be willing to take a slight pay cut, again. And Kobe Bryant is fucking Kobe Bryant, richest NBA player and LAL superstar past 15+ years.

More so than not I think the Knicks are willing to throw a little money in if they can get a championship roster. Not a LOT of extra money (certainly not Nets level) but NY is the most expensive NBA franchise/team valued at over a $bil, they can spare a little cash.

I'm sure Knicks could get a 3rd superstar there, it's just a question of who's coming off their contract in 2015. Not Bosh. I don't see Wade leaving Heat. Can't think of anyone else off the top of my head.

Here's your buffet. http://www.hoopsworld.com/2014-nba-free-agents

Tony Parker
Lebron James
Carmelo Anthony
Dirk Nowitzki
Pau Gasol or Tim Duncan

That will be your starting 5.

[Spectral]

A whole bunch of vet minimum guys because those two alone will hit the salary cap. You have to feel like Lebron feels like he is underpaid since he makes 11 MILLION less than Kobe does per year. He already has a few titles under his belt, I feel like he is going to try to break the bank with his next contract.

Two max-level players don't really break the bank to the point where other contracts are impossible to sign with the current CBA, particularly since the Knicks have shown a willingness to pay the luxury tax. A Kobe-type contract isn't possible under the current CBA.

[Paranoid Android]

While not conventional, it can definitely work. I would argue that Lebron is Miami's point guard and he undoubtedly shoots the most and is their best scorer. Isiah was the same back in Detroit.

Your comparisons are not very good. Lebron is not the person bringing the ball constantly up the court and starts the offense. Blurred Lines here but you more or less call him a point forward. Lebron is by far a more superior passer than Rose is and more unselfish. Not really a knock on Rose, it just happens that is what makes Lebron great. As far as Isiah that is a good example to Rose but when Chuck Daly took over the team he made Isiah fit more into a conventional point guard. Lil off topic but if you tried to make the Isiah and say Stockton comparision it would be same as Rose and Pual. Isiah is definitely a more scoring point guard.

[Spectral]

The Isaiah/Rose comparison is a good one in a number of ways, I think. Both play on teams that work well with them stylistically, have fantastic defense and rebounding to play around, and are fierce competitors. The spot where the comparison breaks down is that Isaiah averaged 9.3 assists per game career, peaked out at 13.9, and was over 10 four consecutive seasons. Purely as a distributor, Thomas likely better, but this may be skewed by era.

The other thing they have in common is never having been the best point guard in the league.

[Stommped]

Two max-level players don't really break the bank to the point where other contracts are impossible to sign with the current CBA, particularly since the Knicks have shown a willingness to pay the luxury tax. A Kobe-type contract isn't possible under the current CBA.

Hyperbole obviously... but Lebron will not take the 19M/yr he took so the Bosh/Wade/Him thing could work.

Your comparisons are not very good. Lebron is not the person bringing the ball constantly up the court and starts the offense.

While he doesn't bring up the ball as much as other point guards in the league, he still brings it up more than anyone else on the Heat.

The other thing they have in common is never having been the best point guard in the league.

Keep posting this. Eventually I won't check the thread for a couple of days and you get the satisfaction you are clearly looking for by thinking you've won the argument (otherwise why would you bring up this irrelevant point?)

Played a third of the full seasons Paul has and already has been further in the playoffs and has more MVPs. This clearly upsets you and I enjoy that it upsets you.

[PyrrhusKing]

Keep posting this. Eventually I won't check the thread for a couple of days and you get the satisfaction you are clearly looking for by thinking you've won the argument (otherwise why would you bring up this irrelevant point?)

From everything I've read, you lost or at the very least you're losing the debate.

Played a third of the full seasons Paul has and already has been further in the playoffs and has more MVPs. This clearly upsets you and I enjoy that it upsets you.

This is a pointless thing to point out in this case, just to be clear. Team success doesn't always tell us how good a player is. Yet, Paul has pretty much always been on bad teams and he has always been in the tougher Western Conference. His playoff stats with the Hornets are actually great with the exception of one year. He has always delivered high assist numbers and most of the time his scoring is efficient. His teams failures were clearly a result of a tough conference and a team that wasn't good enough.

Pointing out that Derrick Rose won an MVP is also pointless (I'm sure you will quote just that sentence and make some "clever" comment). Sure, Rose won an MVP, but that doesn't tell us much about his numbers. It was also due heavily to team success and a lot of that is owed to the talent of the team and the great coaching they have. This team and coach Rose has is better than any Chris Paul has had until the arrival of Doc Rivers. Add onto this that the Eastern conference has been weaker for quite some time now. They have the Heat at the top, but if you continue down, The West has had many great/good teams (Spurs, Lakers, Mavs, Suns, etc). Rose has benefited from this as the real tough challenge, at least in regards to his conference finals season, didn't come until the last round of the playoffs.

It should be noted that the Bulls are not a terrible team without Rose. They aren't a contender without him, but they are still solid. You cannot really say the same for the Clippers. Without Paul they probably aren't even the best team in LA. Chris Paul has totally transformed what the Clippers are. Your argument here against him is quite silly. I'm not necessarily stating any of this as top reasons Paul is better, but I am arguing against your claim that they are reasons Rose is better.

Not that any of that stuff really needs to be pointed out to show that Paul is a better point guard than Rose. It has already been pointed out that Rose scores more, but that is with more shots. Scoring more with more shots doesn't tell us he is a better scorer, it tell us he shoots more. It is widely accepted and pretty obvious that Paul could score more. He averaged nearly 10 assist last year and still scored well with 17ppg on 48% shooting. His first job/desire isn't to look for his own shot, but he is more efficient than Rose is. He didn't shoot as well from three as he had in the past years, but he has always been a very capable scorer from range as evidenced by his three point numbers from previous years. Speaking of the post season, his FG% actually went up. His percentage went up while being guarded by great perimeter and post defenders.

The fact that Rose is bigger or faster or whatever doesn't tell us who the better player is. I'm sure we could find other examples of this. Yes, Rose hasn't played nearly as long, but at the moment he isn't a better player.

[SL1200]

O god, the rose debate came back. I'm done with that one no DRose hater will ever convince me Paul is better than Rose.
Call me a homer whatever.

I'm more interested in Lebron's upcoming free agency.

I don't believe Lebron will tolerate being underpaid too long. I just read an article that said he was considering making a run at being union president. If you think he's going to join the Knicks for a reduced salary you're dreaming. He may be the most underpaid player in all of sports, it's almost an injustice, except that he gets millions, and Injustice is a strong word. Lebron, ,Durant, Rose, Melo and the other top tier guys are all getting screwed by a bad collective bargaining agreement. Put lebron on an open market with reasonable salary cap restrictions and he could easily get 40million per year or more.

http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/story/l...mi-heat-073113

[Spectral]

Hyperbole obviously... but Lebron will not take the 19M/yr he took so the Bosh/Wade/Him thing could work.

Do any of us know what sort of contract he's allowed to get under the new CBA? I don't really understand what qualifies as "max level"; it apparently has to do with previous contract, years of experience, and a couple other things, but I'm not clear how they come up with the number. I know I heard Carmelo's eligible for $22 million/year. I'd imagine that Lebron fits whatever the same criteria are to at least $22 million, but I don't know that factually.

Keep posting this. Eventually I won't check the thread for a couple of days and you get the satisfaction you are clearly looking for by thinking you've won the argument (otherwise why would you bring up this irrelevant point?)

Played a third of the full seasons Paul has and already has been further in the playoffs and has more MVPs. This clearly upsets you and I enjoy that it upsets you.

I wasn't interested in arguing it with you any further; I think I've already made it clear what my stance is and why. I think you're basically a complete fanboy when it comes to Rose, lack coherent arguments on the matter, and that doesn't really interest me. The alternative is that you're just really, really bad at understanding statistics and sample sizes, which isn't terribly unusual, I suppose. In any case, it bores me. Really though, it's just another nice parallel between Rose and Thomas; great players that are just not quite as good as the best. Potentially good enough to win a title in the context of a defensive system and great coaching and talent though.

- - - Updated - - -

I don't believe Lebron will tolerate being underpaid too long. I just read an article that said he was considering making a run at being union president. If you think he's going to join the Knicks for a reduced salary you're dreaming. He may be the most underpaid player in all of sports, it's almost an injustice, except that he gets millions, and Injustice is a strong word. Lebron, ,Durant, Rose, Melo and the other top tier guys are all getting screwed by a bad collective bargaining agreement. Put lebron on an open market with reasonable salary cap restrictions and he could easily get 40million per year or more.

I think in an uncapped environment (truly uncapped, like baseball), it's possible that the Knicks or Lakers would pay him something approaching $100 million/year. He more or less guarantees 55+ wins and a shot at the title every single year he's there, he's a revenue monster on a year to year basis, and even escalates the valuation of the team he's on. Of course, none of that really matters since we have an individual player cap.

Ultimately though, I don't know how much he cares about basketball salary; that's not where the majority of his money's going to be coming from. If money's his top priority, he should be going to New York or LA, regardless of what he'll be paid. I suspect that you're right and he won't be giving out a discount again though.

[Stommped]

I wasn't interested in arguing it with you any further; I think I've already made it clear what my stance is and why. I think you're basically a complete fanboy when it comes to Rose, lack coherent arguments on the matter, and that doesn't really interest me. The alternative is that you're just really, really bad at understanding statistics and sample sizes, which isn't terribly unusual, I suppose. In any case, it bores me. Really though, it's just another nice parallel between Rose and Thomas; great players that are just not quite as good as the best. Potentially good enough to win a title in the context of a defensive system and great coaching and talent though.

You can't be serious right now? How are my arguments incoherent?? All you pretty much said to debunk my pros vs. cons list was to say size, speed, strength, atheltic ability don't mean anything in the sport of basketball. Your insanely hypocritical when you try to say a small sample size isn't relevant (which in itself is wrong, because they are GUARDING each other, so those games are incredibly relevant) because your sample size is their careers which is also wrong as I've stated over and over again but you refuse to acknowledge.

As I also stated earlier, it is hilarious that you try to call me a fanboy when even though you say you aren't a Clippers fan, you have clearly latched onto this godlike worship of Paul (because he can average double digit assists? I don't know haven't really figured that one out yet) and will never bend from that line of thinking. You are so sure that Paul is so much better than Rose just like you were so sure the Nationals would have the best record in baseball, so I guess I'll use your line "I'll be excited to quote this in 6 months when Derrick is averaging 24 and 8 and Paul is at 15 and 10." Not quite the same though because I'll know you'll still be trying to fight for the latter.

I can't see how you have any respect posting in this thread because you come across more of a hater than anyone I've seen in here. A lot of people would take Paul over Rose and I can have a respectable debate with them discussing certain things Paul does better than Rose and vice versa. You're the only person I've seen who is fighting that "Paul is better at literally every basketball aspect" (I'm too lazy to find the exact quote, but that is close). There's no feasible way any rational mind who understands basketball could watch these two players and think that. Your close-mindedness and inability to see anything other than what YOU want to see is a terrible quality.

[Blueobelisk]

Do any of us know what sort of contract he's allowed to get under the new CBA? I don't really understand what qualifies as "max level"; it apparently has to do with previous contract, years of experience, and a couple other things, but I'm not clear how they come up with the number. I know I heard Carmelo's eligible for $22 million/year. I'd imagine that Lebron fits whatever the same criteria are to at least $22 million, but I don't know that factually.

*busts out my lawyer glasses and calculator*

Melo's current contract is $21,490,000 according to Hoopshype. Any player coming off a max contract can sign their new max contract during free agency and make 105% of their previous contract. 105% of Melo's previous salary is $22,564,000 so ya.

Unfortunately for our friend Lebron he isn't coming off a max salary, 105% of his 19 million is less than what a normal max contract would be, which would be 35% of the salary cap, something like ~$20.5 million.

- - - Updated - - -

Uhhhh just to clarify and educate you guys, here's how max contract works. You can either take:

105% of previous salary.
25% of salary cap if you're in league 0-6 years.
30% of salary cap if you're in league 7-9 years.
35% of salary cap if you're in league 10+ years.

[conscript]

Uhhhh just to clarify and educate you guys, here's how max contract works. You can either take:

105% of previous salary.
25% of salary cap if you're in league 0-6 years.
30% of salary cap if you're in league 7-9 years.
35% of salary cap if you're in league 10+ years.

I can't wait to see the Lakers sign Kobe to 105% of what he is making right now.

[PyrrhusKing]

You can't be serious right now? How are my arguments incoherent?? All you pretty much said to debunk my pros vs. cons list was to say size, speed, strength, atheltic ability don't mean anything in the sport of basketball. Your insanely hypocritical when you try to say a small sample size isn't relevant (which in itself is wrong, because they are GUARDING each other, so those games are incredibly relevant) because your sample size is their careers which is also wrong as I've stated over and over again but you refuse to acknowledge.

I really did get to this point you made about physical tools being better for Rose. True or not true it doesn't tell us who is a better player. Again, we can find other situations where a guy has better physical tools, but it isn't a better player. Statistically, Paul is the best point guard in the league. These stats have been pointed out over and over again. You can't just say Rose has more physical tools if they don't translate statistically. You keep talking about physical tools, how about assist, efficiency, steals, etc? You've already explained that you think shooting more and scoring more is evidence of being a better scorer, which is just silly.
No, small sample sizes are not good. You have to look at large sample sizes versus varying competition. A small sample size can be heavily influenced by a number of factors which can be negated with a large sample size. This stuff is really basic in terms of all fields.

[Stommped]

I really did get to this point you made about physical tools being better for Rose. True or not true it doesn't tell us who is a better player. Again, we can find other situations where a guy has better physical tools, but it isn't a better player. Statistically, Paul is the best point guard in the league. These stats have been pointed out over and over again. You can't just say Rose has more physical tools if they don't translate statistically. You keep talking about physical tools, how about assist, efficiency, steals, etc? You've already explained that you think shooting more and scoring more is evidence of being a better scorer, which is just silly.

Chris Paul was also more efficient than Lebron James and Carmelo Anthony (For Lebron you have to exclude his dunks/layups), more assists than them, and more steals as well. So I guess by your logic Chris Paul is just the best player on the planet?

No, small sample sizes are not good. You have to look at large sample sizes versus varying competition. A small sample size can be heavily influenced by a number of factors which can be negated with a large sample size. This stuff is really basic in terms of all fields

My thoughts exactly.

You're trying to approach this in a purely scientific way and it just doesn't work that way. Normally bigger sample size > smaller sample size, but not in this case. In a large sample size Paul is playing against Wester Conf. teams for the majority and Derrick is playing against Easter Conf. Judging the games where they play AGAINST each other and GUARD each other is great tool to see who the better basketball player is. If I beat you in one on one 11-0, barring something bizarre I think it's a fair assumption that I am better than you, I shouldn't have to beat you 100 more times to develop that conclusion. By increasing the sample size you are actually bringing MORE influencing factors that skew the results, such as what I listed above and the amount of time each player has been in his prime.

I'm glad you made an account just for this.

[Blueobelisk]

Chris Paul was also more efficient than Lebron James and Carmelo Anthony (For Lebron you have to exclude his dunks/layups)

*cough* I don't think you can exclude Lebron's points at the rim, that's what makes him Lebron James.

But I just wanted to clear up this misconception. Melo isn't that great lol. He's getting a lot of attention because he's pretty good offensively and won scoring title, but Knicks team is basically balanced around him being the offense and JR smith pouring in a huge amount for the bench. I don't think Melo is even that efficient. At least not enough to use in an argument.

Not that I want to hurt your argument, it's just that...maybe you don't know the Knicks as well as I do and you're giving me false hope by putting Melo on the same level as CP3 and Lebron lol.

Speaking of me bashing Knicks, apparently NYK vs. OKC is a Christmas day game. I gotta say that seems a little lackluster, I don't think Knicks will be anything near OKC level lol...I like competition, not big name games, on Christmas.

[Stommped]

*cough* I don't think you can exclude Lebron's points at the rim, that's what makes him Lebron James.

Well the thinking is that it's pretty easy to be efficient shooting those shots. Lebron dunks the ball about a million times more than Paul does, so is it really fair to compare FG% with that factored in? When I think efficiency, especially for non post players, I'm looking at efficiencey from 5ft and beyond.

Not that I want to hurt your argument, it's just that...maybe you don't know the Knicks as well as I do and you're giving me false hope by putting Melo on the same level as CP3 and Lebron lol.

What level do you think CP3 is on? Does it go 1. Lebron 2. CP3?

I feel like I'm in the twilight zone where I missed a whole 2 seasons where CP3 averaged 25 and 15.