Sargeras vs Old Gods

[ChadBroChill17]

SARGERAS IS TEH DARK TITTAN!! HE WILL DESTRY ALL TEH WORLDS!!!1!!1
HE CANT BE DEFEAT BECAUSE HE IS INVINCICABLE!!1!1!!!
pretty much this..... bonus points if you recognize it

[Deleted]

Perhaps you need a lesson in how to use wowpedia.

"Body Flames (Sargeras’ flesh burns with demonic energy, scorching everything in his path. Sargeras’s body flames slowly increase the ambient temperature by up to 50 degrees in every direction for 1,000 miles. The effect on natural climates can be devastating.)[9][14]"

9. ^ a b c d e f g h i Shadows & Light, 123
14. ^ a b Shadows & Light, 124

Shadows & Light is a source book for the Warcraft RPG and was published in 2004.

Q: Are the Warcraft and World of Warcraft RPG books considered canon?

A: No. The RPG books were created to provide an engaging table-top role-playing experience, which sometimes required diverging from the established video game canon. Blizzard helped generate a great deal of the content within the RPG books, so there will be times when ideas from the RPG will make their way into the game and official lore, but you are much better off considering the RPG books non-canonical unless otherwise stated. (Source)

fair enough but you gotta admit it kinda makes sense, since he is a giant and on fire :P

[Aquamonkey]

fair enough but you gotta admit it kinda makes sense, since he is a giant and on fire :P

It makes sense and his armor is even molten, but Brox wasn't instantly incinerated. And there was no mention of it when Sargeras has half sticking out of the Well of Eternity.

[Realsykes]

still waiting for your e-v-i-d-e-n-c-e

nothing was said before, that shitty book proves nothing since it clearly states that dragon speculates all that supports your ridicilous claims are basically two things:a quote from a minion of the old gods, fair enough this is an actual statement, but then again everyone likes to make his faction seem stronger, it's just propaganda and then there is this awful, awful book from an awful author that contradicted himself two sentences after he made that ridicilous claim

LOLOOLOLOLOL okay, give me evidence that clearly shows Sargeras can beat an Old God.

[Paneele]

I have to say, I can't even bring myself to care about the lore anymore. I've played every Warcraft game since it's inception, and the amount of story revisions over the years have been quite staggering. I forgave and respect what they did with the transition from Warcraft II: BtDP to Warcraft III, it made sense. They formed a solid overarching story for the franchise that gave it a solid background with actions and consequences based on the history of Azeroth and Draenor, and the events that occurred thanks to that history.

When WoW came out I was pretty excited to explore all the places, etc. etc. One of the mostly lasting experiences I had was in Darkshore when you come across the Master's Glaive. I remember staring at it and thinking it was a pretty damn cool little thing. Then you found out through quests that it was the site of an ancient titanic battle between a Titan and an Old God, where the Titan struck down the God with his weapon, which was still embedded in it's skull. Pretty amazing shit right there.

Then came the retcons, the Draenei, the Old Gods, all that stuff. Now I'm not trying to throw blame at anyone. They moved the story forward in a way they felt the story needed to be told, and it is their story to shape and mould as they see fit. I don't like jumping on the 'anti-Knaak', I guess you could call it, bandwagon, but I believe it was a mistake to allow him to touch the lore of Warcraft. Even when I was 13 years old and read The Legend of Huma for the first time, and the prologue was basically 'Forget everything Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman wrote, because I'M going to tell you what really happened, hold onto your seats kids!', I friggin' didn't like the man or his work.

So yeah, new stuff happens all the time in the game and I just go with it. I can't take the Old God's seriously. I just can't. They're phony villains in the Warcraft universe in my own opinion. Like so many people who left when Arthas' story ended, I play the game for the Titan Pantheon and The Legion and once that story has been sufficiently wrapped up, I'll be on my way as well. I like the Old God's as side stories, but the more they become the focus of everything bad that happens in the Warcraft Universe, the less I feel connected to the game's story. I do still enjoy the gameplay.

Anyway, this is probably not really all that pertinent to the poll or whatever, but I just thought I'd throw out my own thoughts on the matter.

[Hctaz]

If one old god and his forces fought against the Burning Legion they would probably lose. Possibly not N'zoth. I'll explain that later. If they all combined their strength they would be greatly superior to Sargeras. The only question is would they? Even when the Titans all combined their strengths the old gods still fought alone. Very silly.

N'zoth is supposed to be the strongest of the Old Gods so far. He engaged in combat with C'thun and Yogg'Saron and their respect armies each by himself back before the Titans imprisoned them. This was also before he added Naga to his group of minions. He MIGHT be able to stand his own against the Legion and Sageras as not even the entire Titan pantheon could defeat and capture him, once again before he added the Naga to his arsenal.
As for the Naga: Some of the strongest arcane users of all time became Naga including Azshara herself.

[Deleted]

LOLOOLOLOLOL okay, give me evidence that clearly shows Sargeras can beat an Old God.

a) Sargeras is the main antagonist of the Warcraft franchise, usually the main antagonist is also the strongest
b) Sargeras is part of a race that has proven to be stronger than the Old Gods
c) Sargeras was stated to be so ridiculously powerful that Blizzard has no idea how they could make us fight him, while we fought Old Gods before and killed them and yes they were not at their maximum power I get it, but still, the fact that we were able to face them doesn't make them nearly as scary as Sargeras, also we KILLED THEM, how powerful can they be if they can be killed by lowly mortals
d) Sargeras was the strongest of a race that is the strongest in the entire universe even before he empowered himself with some sick demon magic and became the scary beast he is now
e) in that shitty knaak book I think it was stated that Archimonde could easily kill Deathwing if not for the Dragon Soul, so this is a comparison of creations: Archimonde (Sargeras) vs. Deathwing (N'Zoth) if one assumes that each creator bestowed its creation with as much power as he can (which is probably not the case with Sargeras) then Sargeras is stronger because Archimonde is stronger.

[Ashroot]

a) Sargeras is the main antagonist of the Warcraft franchise

Any evidence to support your claim ? Have you read my post ? The Old Gods are all inspired from Ctulhu Mythos and there Azathoth is the supreme being in the Universe , more exactly the one that gave birth to the stars so that one day he can devour them . Notice the similarities Azeroth / Azathoth ...

[Hctaz]

Except when Algalon was about to send reply code Omega for re-origination because the Old Gods infestation had become rampant.

It still sort of fits into this theory though. The theory wasn't that the Titans didn't want to simply deal with it again it was that they wanted to avoid it if at all possible.

I actually like that theory... It makes some sense. And what's interesting is the fact that this was written before the Sha were confirmed as Old God spawn. Maybe this theory could be correct. It'd be interesting.

[Deleted]

Any evidence to support your claim ? Have you read my post ? The Old Gods are all inspired from Ctulhu Mythos and there Azathoth is the supreme being in the Universe , more exactly the one that gave birth to the stars so that one day he can devour them . Notice the similarities Azeroth / Azathoth ...

Blizzard saying so, I am aware of the similiar names but Azeroth is not an entity it is a planet like any other.

[Aquamonkey]

If one old god and his forces fought against the Burning Legion they would probably lose. Possibly not N'zoth. I'll explain that later. If they all combined their strength they would be greatly superior to Sargeras. The only question is would they? Even when the Titans all combined their strengths the old gods still fought alone. Very silly.

N'zoth is supposed to be the strongest of the Old Gods so far. He engaged in combat with C'thun and Yogg'Saron and their respect armies each by himself back before the Titans imprisoned them. This was also before he added Naga to his group of minions. He MIGHT be able to stand his own against the Legion and Sageras as not even the entire Titan pantheon could defeat and capture him, once again before he added the Naga to his arsenal.
As for the Naga: Some of the strongest arcane users of all time became Naga including Azshara herself.

Where is N'Zoth? He was mentioned at Blizzcon, then was talked about in Dragon Soul. What is going on with him?!
N'zoth is still lurking. The Titans couldn't defeat it... maybe someday we'll get our chance? Don't expect to hear anything about him in Pandaria, though! (Source)

The caveat with the Old Gods and especially N'Zoth is that the Titans weren't using their full force. While it is true that N'Zoth was never defeated, the method by which the Titans defeated the Old Gods was by "[casting] a magical slumber on [them]." The Titans didn't smack the Old Gods into submission. N'Zoth apparently evaded this spell or was able to overpower it and hide.

The Titans have the capacity to kill Old Gods as evidenced by Y'Shaarj and:

Not every Old God is still alive and plotting. The Titans actually did kill a lot, so this particular Old God is dead. And is safely dead. Not all of the Old Gods were entombed. (Source)

Even when the Titans killed Y'Shaarj, they had the kiddy gloves on because they were trying to salvage Azeroth. When Old Gods corruption becomes too systemic, the Titans have no choice but to take the kiddy gloves off and decompose the entire planet to wipe out the Old Gods.
Brann Bronzebeard says: Planetary re-origination? Speak plainly, ye blasted machine!
Archivum System says: The decomposition of the planet and its living organisms into base elements: metals, rocks, gases. This is followed by a period of reconstitution of each element into the original planetary blueprint.
...
Archivum System says: Algalon diagnostics assess danger of systemic Old God corruption in planetary vital functions. Calculating chance of Omega Reply-code...
Archivum System says: Ninety-nine point nine nine percent.

Something they had been forced to do on other worlds:
Algalon the Observer yells: I have seen worlds bathed in the Makers' flames. Their denizens fading without so much as a whimper. Entire planetary systems born and raised in the time that it takes your mortal hearts to beat once.

[Hctaz]

*snip*

I'm pretty sure the magic slumber was only after they fought them though. The lore also says that the Titans waged a war against the Old Gods... meaning they did fight. But also the Old Gods didn't fight together which means they might be more powerful together. -shrug- Also C'thun was the weakest of all the Old Gods. But oh well. We shall see.

[Vxt]

Old Gods. Without a shadow of a doubt. Sargeras can be killed, Old Gods cannot be killed, not because they are immortal, but because they are directly tied to the very stability of Azeroth itself. To destroy the Old Gods would mean the destruction of the very planet. Sargeras had neither the strength, nor the foresight, like the rest of The Pantheon, to stop the Old Gods from doing this when they first visited Azeroth. Here's some nice info dealing with the most powerful of them all, N'zoth.

When Malfurion finally awoke from the Emerald Dream with the help from Broll and Thura, it is remarked, "When Malfurion Stormrage contained the Nightmare within the Rift of Aln, he sensed an "ancient evil" that was keeping its foothold in the Emerald Dream from somewhere beneath Azeroth's oceans."

Source: http://wowpedia.org/N%27Zoth

From Krasus: "Krasus speculated that should the Old Gods open the gates of their prison, even Sargeras would find himself pleading for the peace of death."

Also about Xavius: "Although the Nightmare Lord in the dream turned out to be the Satyr Lord Xavius, it is suspected that he acted on behalf of a power even greater and darker than Sargeras."

Source: http://wowpedia.org/Old_God

They are the complete embodiment of evil and corruption. Sargeras is a mortal, just like the Old Gods. He can die, be corrupted (which he was slowly corrupted over the countless millenia of fighting against demons. So even Sargeras had a breaking point to where he couldn't handle his duties anymore.), and be slain. He is powerful, but the Old Gods are unflinching in their desire to corrupt and dominate all life. Unlike Old Gods, Sargeras' death would not destroy all life and the planet, as Old Gods are directly linked to the world. The Titans found this out when fighting them. C'thun and Yogg-Saron are not "dead", but instead, their husks have been beaten, while their existence lives on. C'thun and Yogg-Saron are still fully able to be resurrected.

Also, it should be noted that all the various demonic races of the Legion are controlled by corruption and dominance. The Old Gods are the living embodiment of these forces, and are capable of overpowering even Sargeras' magic in doing so. If the Legion was to come to Azeroth in full-force, it takes only a whisper from an Old God to dominate all of them, therefore stripping Sargeras of his power. Sargeras is simply the main antagonist, because he is a tangible enemy that can be dealt with.

[Haseth]

Ok, quick post here to sum up my feelings. Who would win? Sargeras easily.

And now the why.

Firstly, yes the Old Gods were busy squabbling amongst themselves when the Titans originally arrived, but lets not forget that their greatest servants and forces were the Elemental Lords (Ragneros, Al'Akir etc) and the Titans absolutely mopped the floor with them despite them being (as far as we know) hideously outnumbered, since we don't know anything of the Titans ground forces, militia etc, or even if it exists.

Secondly. Sargeras was the physically the most powerful of the Titans, and their greatest combat asset. So powerful in fact that his old Lieutenant, Aggamar, armed with the other half of Sargs old weapon, still hasn't worked up the courage to face him yet went toe to toe with the Old Gods.

The Titans fought to imprison the Old Gods, not kill them. It's infinitely harder to restrain someone without inflicting potentially fatal damage than it is to just kill them. They lost 1 member to the Old Gods during the conflict, and we aren't even sure if they are really dead. The Titans killed Y'sharrj, and then realised that killing the Old Gods would destroy Azeroth since they had bound themselves parasitically to it so tightly. It's a similar principle to burning out an infection, you'll get rid of it, but you'll destroy a huge portion of whatever it was inhabiting in the process, possibly even kill the patient.

And here's the last, and most telling thing. After his fall from grace, Sargeras went back, and freed almost every race of demons, beings and entities that the Titans had imprisoned in the Void after their ordering of worlds. His forces are HUGE, drawn from hundreds, if not thousands of worlds, so I'm pretty sure that he even has a numerical advantage over the Old Gods forces.

Oh, something I forgot. The Old Gods helped the effort to summon Sargeras into Azeroth, hoping to use the force of it to escape their prison. When that went pear shaped and the portal started closing, Sargeras -CONTINUED- to come, physically forcing the portal open, and had it not been for Broxigar distracting him right at the end, would have kept it open, walked through and bent the combined forces against him over the table for a rough session of buttlove almost instantly. Not a damn being, army, demi-god, God or Aspect would have been able to a single damn thing against it.

[Polybius]

A raid of 10-25 players can beat both.

Not counting their forces (demons, faceless), Old Gods can kill Sargeras. Old Gods are extra-dimmensional entities that even when killed (Y'Shaarj), can still manage to corrupt land and living beings.

Think about it, Lovecraftian gods vs the Antichrist. Who could win?

[Aquamonkey]

I'm pretty sure the magic slumber was only after they fought them though. The lore also says that the Titans waged a war against the Old Gods... meaning they did fight. But also the Old Gods didn't fight together which means they might be more powerful together. -shrug- Also C'thun was the weakest of all the Old Gods. But oh well. We shall see.

They waged a war minions vs minions.
The Pantheon, disturbed by the Old Gods' penchant for evil, waged war upon the elementals and their dark masters. The Old Gods' armies were led by the most powerful elemental lieutenants: Ragnaros the Firelord, Therazane the Stonemother, Al'Akir the Windlord, and Neptulon the Tidehunter. Their chaotic forces raged across the face of the world and clashed with the colossal Titans. Though the elementals were powerful beyond mortal comprehension, their combined forces could not stop the mighty Titans. One by one, the elemental lords fell, and their forces dispersed.

The Mogu were sent to kill Y'Shaarj. IMO, the legend is inaccurate due to being passed on by oral tradition for so long before being written down. The Mogu were likely pumping up their importance in fighting Y'Shaarj.

They sent 20 stone giants to kill Soggoth.


However, there's a prophecy that describes an actual fisticuffs battle between C'Thun and a Titan:
In the time before time, when the world was still in its infancy, a battle between a Titan and a being of unimaginable evil and power raged on this very soil. The prophecy is unclear about whether or not the Titan was vanquished in this battle but it illustrates that a Titan fell. An Old God had also fallen - or so it was thought.
IMO, the prophecy isn't actually describing a Titan. It's possible Skeram mistook a Watcher for a Titan.

[Realsykes]

a) Sargeras is the main antagonist of the Warcraft franchise, usually the main antagonist is also the strongest
b) Sargeras is part of a race that has proven to be stronger than the Old Gods
c) Sargeras was stated to be so ridiculously powerful that Blizzard has no idea how they could make us fight him, while we fought Old Gods before and killed them and yes they were not at their maximum power I get it, but still, the fact that we were able to face them doesn't make them nearly as scary as Sargeras, also we KILLED THEM, how powerful can they be if they can be killed by lowly mortals
d) Sargeras was the strongest of a race that is the strongest in the entire universe even before he empowered himself with some sick demon magic and became the scary beast he is now
e) in that shitty knaak book I think it was stated that Archimonde could easily kill Deathwing if not for the Dragon Soul, so this is a comparison of creations: Archimonde (Sargeras) vs. Deathwing (N'Zoth) if one assumes that each creator bestowed its creation with as much power as he can (which is probably not the case with Sargeras) then Sargeras is stronger because Archimonde is stronger.

A). Nope, not the main antagonist, because there isn't one. The frickin Lich King has had more of a prominent role than Sargeras as far as villains are concerned.
B). Nope, just your personal opinion.
C). If you want to go at it that way, then let's take the fact that one mage defeated Sargeras' shadow puppet. Oh? But that's not really him? That's not him at full power? Ohp, Way to contradict yourself.
D). He was not the strongest of the Titans. He was their warrior, however. He then became corrupted by having a different mindset. He did not "gain" anything, he created the Burning Legion for Christ's sake. He merely shifted his powers into a different outlet.
E). Irrelevant, assuming things and really pulling at stings via lackies. Piss poor "evidence"

[Aquamonkey]

A). Nope, not the main antagonist, because there isn't one. The frickin Lich King has had more of a prominent role than Sargeras as far as villains are concerned.
B). Nope, just your personal opinion.
C). If you want to go at it that way, then let's take the fact that one mage defeated Sargeras' shadow puppet. Oh? But that's not really him? That's not him at full power? Ohp, Way to contradict yourself.
D). He was not the strongest of the Titans. He was their warrior, however. He then became corrupted by having a different mindset. He did not "gain" anything, he created the Burning Legion for Christ's sake. He merely shifted his powers into a different outlet.
E). Irrelevant, assuming things and really pulling at stings via lackies. Piss poor "evidence"

A).

I'd written that WarCraft III manual, and I'd written a line in there that Sargeras, the big series' bad guy, had met the Eredar and they had driven him crazy. (Source)

B).

Not every Old God is still alive and plotting. The Titans actually did kill a lot, so this particular Old God is dead. And is safely dead. Not all of the Old Gods were entombed. (Source)

C). It wasn't one mage. Aegwynn was working with the dragons and Sargeras let her win so he could jump into her baby-maker. It was only Sargeras' avatar. Also, being the Guardian, Aegwynn was empowered by the entire Council of Tirisfal.
D). "the Pantheon elected its greatest warrior, Sargeras, to act as its first line of defense." Granted, being the greatest warrior doesn't necessarily make him the most powerful, just the best at fighting. Also, based on the WoW Magazine images, Sargeras pmuch just fought by swinging his sword (which broke itself in half when Sargeras turned evil).

[Yarathir]

There is zero evidence to support your claim that the Old Gods would defeat Sargeras, whereas there is mounting evidence that Sargeras is the strongest known being in the Warcraft universe.

What?






Besides. Even if he was the strongest, which was never explicitly mentioned, that doesn't mean he should be able to trump anything. Being the strongest means he could take anything one on one. And because he is both a Titan and empowered, it'd make sense for him to be able to take a fully-powered Old God one on one. But 4 Old Gods at full power? Get over it, really.


Nothing I've said even contradicts the age-old claim that Sargeras is the strongest being in the WoW-verse. Old Gods and Titans are the two strongest entities in there. I said that Sargeras, due to being stronger than both, could take a Titan or an Old God one-on-one. That still makes him the strongest being. And even so, like I mentioned before: the claim that Sargeras is the strongest being is older than sin. Who knows if it even holds up now? There is a lot more recent information on other World of Warcraft concepts that has been retconned, so if Blizzard wants there to be something stronger than Sargeras, you can't really latch on to old information.

Yarathir is an Old God fan, she believes what she wants to believe, that's why threads like this one are utterly redundant imo, it always ends in the same fan vs fan speculation flexing contest.

Oh, take a hike. You're the one who, without evidence, believes that Sargeras could destroy four Old Gods because he's 'so cooool', while I use some of the logic in the lore. The fact that several lore characters mentioned the Old Gods to be strong enough united to make Sargeras weep, or the fact that Blizzard has obviously set them up to be polar opposites and archenemies. I am willing to say one Old God would be beaten by Sargeras because Sargeras was empowered, but otherwise I'd say one Titan vs one Old God would depend on the circumstances, because it would be very logically an even match.



So think about that before you parade in here with your Sargeras fanboy signature and imply that I am a deluded fanboy just because I don't think Sargeras could destroy anythiiiing!

[Roshar]

For all you Sargeras fans out there



http://wow.joystiq.com/2011/11/06/kn...f-azeroth-pag/

And it's not Old Gods forces , it's either Old Gods or Azeroth (Azathoth). Because Sargeras isn't supposed to fight OG forces according to this debate but rather the OG themselves . The Burning Legion's might should be compare to OG forces .


And I guess this solves the whole debate Sargeras vs Old gods.

While I do believe the Old Gods are more powerful than Sargeras, you do know that the link and quotes you posted are from a Tin Foil Hat edition of Know Your Lore right? Nothing in that article is substantiated by any lore, it's all just speculation.