How Will Baddies Affect The Game?

[theredviola]

Where I draw the line is when I have explicitly helped the person to the point where I feel like I'm literally babysitting a 12 year old. After that, I just don't think they have the mental capacity to handle an MMO yet, simply because, well, they're most likely under 13 years old. I will help many players as much as I can, but at a certain point they just can't be helped because it's too hard for them to understand. This is when I feel it's okay to just let it go.

But to say that giving pointers and occasionally explaining things are methods of "handholding", is just rude, selfish, pompous, and probably self absorbed. People need to realize the point of have it be massively multiplayer is to get to know people and make friends to have fun with. How do we make connections within a community? Being nice is usually a good place to start. Some people just need to get a clue or go home.

I completely agree with you sir.

If I had a hat, I would tip it to you.

Also, @RAWRF

Consider this. If you indeed are that polar opposite personality towards helping people, how will you build a community? How will you retain new players? Getting more players in a game is like recruiting for anything. If the recruiter is being an asshat, do you think that new players would join? I'm not referring to guilds, I'm referring to a game as a whole.

I cite WoW; I know there are PLENTY of people who left that game solely based on the community, or lack-there-of. It had little to nothing to do with mechanics, but had a LOT to do with a bad community.

Why perpetuate an attitude that has very -clearly- failed in one of the world's largest, most successful MMO's? Why continue this attitude when we as a new community have a chance to set our own rules?

[jotad4]

How will baddies affect the game? The most important question is how will elitists affect the game.

The game is fine with self-taught and learners, but once elitists come in, it goes downhill. Look at WoW.

[Deleted]

They said they we're going to do that weeks ago (╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻

Such a fine feature should be implemented immediately. ಠ_ರೃ

[TheImmortalLordAtlas]

I always get the feeling that people that constantly use the term "baddie" are the people that get carried by others in raids...

[Cuchulainn]

I completely agree with you sir.

If I had a hat, I would tip it to you.

Here, borrow mine.
I already tipped it for you too, so give it back.
No, wait, actually you can keep it. I have more hats than I can handle.
Wait...no, actually give it back.

I agree with his post too, the second paragraph, that is. I believe all players can become good, even if it takes a long time.

[theredviola]

Here, borrow mine.
I already tipped it for you too, so give it back.
No, wait, actually you can keep it. I have more hats than I can handle.
Wait...no, actually give it back.

I agree with his post too, the second paragraph, that is. I believe all players can become good, even if it takes a long time.

Oh Cuchulainn, you cheeky fellow you.

[Cuchulainn]

Oh Cuchulainn, you cheeky fellow you.

I'm totally ninja'ing a off topic post here. For those of you who don't know, my screen name is pronounced Coo-hoo-len, which means "Hound of Cullan". Cuchulainn is an Irish patriarch and legendary warrior in Irish mythology. Murals and statues of him can be found in Ireland as he is commonly seen as the embodiment of Irish strength and independence.

[Acquiesce of Telara]

I always get the feeling that people that constantly use the term "baddie" are the people that get carried by others in raids...

How would you best describe a DPS warrior that refuses to use an axe because he prefers the sword, even if the axe is a major upgrade and unlocks additional talents? What about a Hunter that refuses to kite because it'd hurt his DPS, A Shadowpriest that has 4 heals in their build but refuses to use them? Please, I would honestly love to know what terms could accurately describe such players in place of the word Baddie. Other options offered thus far include Asshole and Elitist.

You either haven't read what I've actually posted, or you'd see my attitude isn't what you're making it out to be.

[Cuchulainn]

Its not contradictory at all actually. I will help people by offering advice and answering a question if they ask me. If I see someone doing poorly 9 times out of 10 I will inspect them and see if I can find an obvious reason then let them know. I will also give weblinks to people to find relevant information for them. But anything beyond that is what they need to do if they want to get better.

You are reading WAY to much into my postings. Don't add your own words to it, read it and understand the words I am typing. I am far from an elitist. I play with people both more skilled and less skill then I am. That being said, I am a hell of a good player at any game I choose to play. Why would I play a game if I was bad at it? And why would I surround myself in people who do not think like me?

You want to have your little harem of followers then that is fine. Go out and hand feed information to people who are too lazy to do a few simple google searches. If that is what is fun for you then so be it. If you think it is elitist for me to expect the people I play with to put forth at least as much effort as I do then you have a fucked up view of what elitist is. If I were elitist I would simple rage on baddies and kick them from groups the second I see them. I woudl also not help anyone at all for any reason. This is obviously not the case with me at all.

Just because I disagree with you saying we should all hand feed info to baddies doesn't mean that I am elitist. It simply means that, for some reason, you enjoy doing it. I don't. But I guess since I don't have fun the same way as you do I should be spit on and shunned from the game right?

You're reading way too far into my posts also. I don't go on personal conquests to make people better players, that would be retarded. It's not like I walk around town asking people if they want my help. No, I help people in-depth when they are doing something wrong. That is, when it's effecting me or my group is when I'll point things out and help them. I'm not going to throw them a few points, links, and let it be. You might as well help them then and there while it matters, or would you rather have a player in your group go AFK while they look at the sites you just linked them? I wouldn't, instead, I'd ENGAGE with the player (engage? In an MMO? What is this foul sorcery!?) and help them rather than sitting around waiting for them to read. It just sounds like you're willing to slap a band-aid on a rough player, but that's about it. I've raid lead in WoW for many guilds, and if someone decided that they wanted to do what you would, then I'd put the raid on halt and explain the fights over again, just to be an ass toward the elitist people in our raid.

"hand feed" is such a poor term. It's like you're trying so hard to make helping people sound like a bad thing. It doesn't help much that you accuse all bad players of being lazy. Some are casual, some are new, some have never done a serious dungeon before but wanted to give one a try. If I were one of these players then I'd be insulted if someone threw me a couple links and said "just throw down fire wall here, and BTW your gear sux. Get so and so gear". It's a little more complicated than just throwing tips and links around.

On the point of effort. People who are bad and want to learn are trying to put in the effort. It just so happens that they're doing it the wrong way. How can you expect everyone to up and become leet as fuck after reaching level 80? It's just not realistic, and that's what makes you an elitist; you EXPECT for people to be damn good. And yeah, I'll spit on you for that type of shit, because it's pompous, arrogant, and self-centered way of thinking.

What are you going to do when you get into your first explorable mode dungeon and you're the only one in the group who knows the ins and outs of it (alert! scenario!)? You're going to fucking blow a brain vein when everyone fucks up from the way you sound about the issue. So what is it man, are you a team player, or someone who cares only about being in the most leet group of players? You're teetering in the middle and going from one end to the other every time you post.

[Mort459]

It's the players with a solo-role mentality, the ones who will refuse to adapt to circumstances and the ideals of GW2 that worry me.

The example I presented earlier is (I think) a valid one: A group of 5 go into a dungeon. One player won't lay traps, heal, debuff or assist other than by laying out ranged DPS. The other group members are forced to work around him, holding on to specific duties to compensate and cover his ass. The more often you're forced to deal with a particular mentality, the more likely you are to respond in the same manner over and over, until it becomes second nature. Before long, your plate wearer is always trying to be a tank, a scholar is trying to be the main healer, and DPS give up their tricks and alternate abilities just to get the dungeon over with.

Think of it like selfish behavior in LFD groups. Everyone rolls need 100% of the time, because if they don't, they'll lose a main spec piece of gear because some jerk will roll need for off-spec. You started off generous and considerate, now it's every man for himself; you've altered the way you do things because of the actions of others. (let's please not get into an argument over LFD etiquette )

With a little luck, a group is destined to fail if everyone doesn't play their roles dynamically. If not, the "pure" spec players have an opportunity to push everyone else into a static role. We won't really know until NDA-free beta reviews come in.

I think this is an impeccably well written post, but my general response to it is... I think it's eventually going to happen. It's sad, and it pisses me off, but I don't think you're going to be able to avoid these people. And they will eventually represent a substantial percentage of the player base.

Maybe I'm deeply cynical, and maybe I'm seriously overlooking some mechanics of the game. But there will be people who are going, "OMG, WAI ARE U ONLY DOING XX DPS?" To which you respond, "Well I've been throwing out heals and debuffs when I can, Players X and Y have been putting out solid damage and..." *cuts you off* "OMG PLAYER Z IS HEALER JUST FUKING DPS BOSS U N00B L2P" *ragequit*

As a long time MMO (and WoW) player who had a boatload of fun playing casually in GW1, these people are not confined to the WoW community. They infest the human race. And just like ANY other game, the key will be finding a group of players who you are familiar/friendly with, and going out and having a good time.

There is a positive to take from this, though: Unlike any MMO-style game I can remember, GW2 will reward players who play all facets of their character. A party with 5 PCs performing all roles will succeed most highly. So the "baddies" who try to force the 1/3/1 Tank/DPS/Healer set up on group can defeat the dungeon, but will not succeed as efficiently or effectively. This is fundamentally contrary to WoW (and all other MMOs I've played). But these people will exist, and you're just going to have to learn to deal with them, and laugh at them, or ignore them.

Worrying about "baddies" will only make you hate this game instead of have fun. This thread worries me more than the baddies. No one will enjoy flame wars in dungeons.

My 2 cents.

[Cuchulainn]

I love how talk out your ass about what I would do. You don't know me, don't pretend like you do. You're telling me your going to stop a raid and make 8-23 other people wait while teach someone to play their class so your raid can succeed? That sounds realistic to you? At all? No one reading this is stupid enough to believe you would do that and expect the raid to stick together.

A player who wants to step into something above there head is fine by me. Someone walking into a heroic in all blue gear is obviously doing one of his first few heroics. If he does poorly then I will try to offer him some advice and give him some websites to look at. After I tell him that info I will carry him through the instance and let him decide for himself to either A) continue to be carried and become a true baddy or B) go read the website and do some research so he can fix his toon. Sadly most WoW players choose option A, but for everyone that chooses option B I have done the community a service. It doesn't matter how you would go about it because that player that chose A over B will continue to be lazy and as such they will continue to be bad whether they ran into you or into me. If you think otherwise you are fooling yourself.

Your effort comment makes me giggle. People who are bad and want to learn can put forth the effort by doing a few simple google searches to find relevant information about their class. Anyone who plays WoW or any other MMO knows this is 100% fact. And no, I don't expect people who play WoW to gain any skill at all from levels 1-max. WoWs leveling experience is truly unchallenging and pathetic. You can level any toon in WoW from 1-max spamming a single attack and never have to worry about dying. If you do die, so what? There is no penalty but a joke of a repair bill and a short run to your corpse. There is NOTHING about the WoW leveling experience that challenges people in any way, shape, or form except making sure they don't fall asleep. What I do expect is for people to hit max level and realize they are not doing as good as other players and then take some initiative to try to figure out why. If that is asking to much..... I just don't know what to say. It's a video game, why bother playing a game with a monthly fee if you don't want to be good at it?

As to your GW2 comment about what I would do in that scenario. In the first 1-2 years of the game being open I am not asinine enough to think everyone has fully figured the game out by then. I will have no problems leading people through it and tossing out the same type of character advice as I would in WoW. The one thing I won't do is rage at people and leave. At the most I will say "see you all latah" make up some dumb excuse and leave. That is something I would only do if I thought the dungeon was undoable because of the player skill in the group.

I am now and always have been a team player, I have not said a single thing in any of these posts that should make anyone think anything else. Unfortunately you people decide to read into things. Saying "I expect people to learn to play the game" does not make me an elitist. It makes me someone who who has the RESPECT for the people I play with to learn to play my class to the best of my ability and as such I expect the same out of other people. If you don't have the respect for your fellow player to care enough to learn how to play your class right then I will throw you a bone and let you decide to catch it or watch it fly by your head.

The expectation for people to hand feed info to poor players whenever they come across them is unrealistic to say the least. Kudos to you for doing it, but you're 1 in a hundred thousand if you really practice what you preach.

Yeah, I don't know you, that's why I said "(Alert! Scenario!)", you ass. After saying that, you then proceed to accuse me of blowing smoke out of my ass about how I've handled raids. Balithfrigg, Jam, Baalz? Is that you? No, I thought not, so don't assume anything about me if I'm not doing the same thing to you. As it is, your entire post is a huge smear of rage and point switching. I'm pretty sure if someone gave you two paint cans (one red, one blue) and asked you to paint a wall ONE color, you wouldn't be able to just use one can of paint. God, where the hell do you stand, guy? You'd say "latah" and leave, huh? Yeah, in the game you would, but that's just a way of masking the rage that the group didn't meet your standards. Then you go on to say "I'm a team player"...wait...What the fuck?! Are you fucking kidding me?

I'm not even talking about "player A", where the fuck did you get in your mind that I'm talking about helping people who refuse to learn? In my first post I pointed out "player A" as the "stubborn asshole" player. Which flew over your head when you first responded to me, and it seems it's still over your battle cruiser of a head. Do air planes ever land on that thing?!

I'm not talking about WoW when I pointed out the level 1-80 thing. Last I played, the cap was 85 anyway. I was talking about GW2, because, you know...THIS IS A FUCKING GW2 FORUM BOARD. Considering that level 1-80 is pretty much the game experience of GW2, people will learn their classes on a basic level, with little hand holding, but no one will be perfect like you've suggested they should be, or not be, seeing as your points are fucked up and ass backwards.

Lastly, nice try turning the expectations argument around on me. That's really "clever" of you. It's not unrealistic for people to help people, but will everyone do it? No. It just makes me a nice guy with a lot of patience for new or unrefined players. That would be like you expecting everyone to be elite...oh wait. You already stated that. It's just my moral code of conduct. There's nothing more to argue with you about. It's just the battle of opinions right now, and all you're saying is "I'm an elitist, but I'm not an elitist and here's a long winded and clever explanation as to why".

Jesus what a waste of time posting this.

[Ynna]

How would you best describe a DPS warrior that refuses to use an axe because he prefers the sword, even if the axe is a major upgrade and unlocks additional talents?

This seems like a problem with the talent design. Seriously, in WoW weapons are just stat sticks, so why force someone into a certain weapon class.

@RAWRF
Looking up things about a game online isn't the norm. And requiring it is a failure of the game. Any game should teach players how to play properly, without resorting to external sources.

[Deleted]

How would you best describe a DPS warrior that refuses to use an axe because he prefers the sword, even if the axe is a major upgrade and unlocks additional talents? What about a Hunter that refuses to kite because it'd hurt his DPS, A Shadowpriest that has 4 heals in their build but refuses to use them? Please, I would honestly love to know what terms could accurately describe such players in place of the word Baddie. Other options offered thus far include Asshole and Elitist.

Hmmmmm...for me the needs of the individual player and the needs of the team must be balanced.

Sacrificing individual fun for team success is, in my opinion, exactly the kind of elitism I do my best to avoid - it leads to burnout, resentment and the game feeling like a job. If the whole success of the group depends on this dudes axe then we're probably doomed anyway.

[Acquiesce of Telara]

Hmmmmm...for me the needs of the individual player and the needs of the team must be balanced.

Sacrificing individual fun for team success is, in my opinion, exactly the kind of elitism I do my best to avoid - it leads to burnout, resentment and the game feeling like a job. If the whole success of the group depends on this dudes axe then we're probably doomed anyway.

Thing is, in GW2, every player in every profession is that warrior with the axe. Circumstances will call for each player to switch weapons on the fly to unlock particular talents associated with that weapon. Game design demands changing out a particular school of magic, and/or switching from ranged to melee. There will be times the warrior should go ranged, other times the elementalist goes melee.

This isn't like Warcraft; no one is going to tell you "OMFG, go Fury spec, Arms is garbage" because all three trees are rolled into a single dynamic spec. To succeed, you're supposed to have to flip your style on a dime to get things done. You're not supposed to play as a cat druid 100% of the time, the game requires you to bounce from bear tank to resto druid to boomkin on the fly.

Success depends on adapting to the situation. Every dude's axe determines our outcome.

[Edge-]

Cool it with the personal attacks guys, or some baddies are gonna get this thread closed.

[Takanasi]

I don't really like the term "baddie", I prefer "Unskilled". Because someone doesn't know how to do something doesn't make them bad, it just makes them unskilled. It's not bad to be unskilled, because there's always room to learn, and there's always other players to help the unskilled players learn.

That is indeed an important distinction. Stupid vs uninformed.

Uninformed = Has not been taught a specific skill or concept.
Stupid = Unable to _learn_ a specific skill or concept even if taught.

[Cuchulainn]

Cool it with the personal attacks guys, or some baddies are gonna get this thread closed.

Did I just get trolled by a mod? hahahaha!
Burn the baddie! Cleanse it in tribunal fire!

That is indeed an important distinction. Stupid vs uninformed.

Uninformed = Has not been taught a specific skill or concept.
Stupid = Unable to _learn_ a specific skill or concept even if taught.

Yes, I pointed that out in one of my later posts, I don't blame you for not reading them. Most of this thread is TLDR anyway. At least the last page of me and RAWRF going at it.

[Deleted]

Thing is, in GW2, every player in every profession is that warrior with the axe. Circumstances will call for each player to switch weapons on the fly to unlock particular talents associated with that weapon. Game design demands changing out a particular school of magic, and/or switching from ranged to melee. There will be times the warrior should go ranged, other times the elementalist goes melee.

This isn't like Warcraft; no one is going to tell you "OMFG, go Fury spec, Arms is garbage" because all three trees are rolled into a single dynamic spec. To succeed, you're supposed to have to flip your style on a dime to get things done. You're not supposed to play as a cat druid 100% of the time, the game requires you to bounce from bear tank to resto druid to boomkin on the fly.

Success depends on adapting to the situation. Every dude's axe determines our outcome.

I understand all of that - this is why I love everything I've seen and heard about the game. This is why, it feels like the game was being made for me...and for people like me.

On the flip side of the coin - folk have different skill levels...some amazing people don't read all of the guides and journals and tactics, some of them do but have sausage rolls for fingers.

Enhancing my social experience and making new friends is my aim...finishing the dungeon, getting the new magical axe all come second - and always will.

That's cool - I'm happy that other people get their buzz another way...and I think it's very mature to discuss these kinds of things...it's cool for us all to enjoy different things.

For me, the villain of the story is the player who doesn't respect that.

[Cuchulainn]

And another post of utter shit putting more words in my mouth that I did not say.

You have failed to support yourself in any meaningful way, and ignore a mods warning.
Please, just drop it, or take it to PMs if you want to "discuss" it further.

[Fencers]

You guys were arguing over a premise not supported by the thread topic. LOL