Ret Gurthalak nerf

[Phantoms]

It's impossible for it to be "practically as useful" as it was before the nerf with the massive loss to proc chance. As far as this weapon is concerned, usefulness is determined by the damage output from the proc, of which you won't see (on average) numbers anywhere near what you would have before.

(I'm not arguing here, just clarifying...we're on the same team here from the posts I've seen from the both of us on the WoW forums...)

I'm saying that in terms of our class alone, the weapon is practically the same value as it always has been among other weapons.

In terms of a Raid DPS environment, a Ret paladin with the weapon will no longer be able to match/compete with the damage output seen by an Arms, Fury, or Unholy with the weapon.

[Reith]

They actually confirmed it is a bug, and they do not confirm that it isn't a bug. They confirmed it was not changed by an accidental bug fix, that isn't the same as it not being bugged.

Latest post overrules all previous posts. The proc rate being unintentionally higher for Ret is not a bug, so I disregard the other posts.

[Fredzilla]

(I'm not arguing here, just clarifying...we're on the same team here from the posts I've seen from the both of us on the WoW forums...)

I'm saying that in terms of our class alone, the weapon is practically the same value as it always has been among other weapons.

In terms of a Raid DPS environment, a Ret paladin with the weapon will no longer be able to match/compete with the damage output seen by an Arms, Fury, or Unholy with the weapon.

I'm not arguing either, but with our massively reduced chance to proc it now, we get less damage done, on average, overall. This lowers the value relative to what it was before for us specifically. The base value of the weapon before anyone is using it is the same, because its just a 2% proc chance, but the value of it to us is lower than it was because of the loss in things that proc it, and thus proc chance.

[Phantoms]

Latest post overrules all previous posts. The proc rate being unintentionally higher for Ret is not a bug, so I disregard the other posts.

How could the proc rate have been unintentionally higher...when Motes of Anger for TAiJ and Landslide procs appeared more frequently than what their current reasoning is.

The byproduct of Ret's slow and less frequent melee attacks is Seals. Seals, when triggered (not the DoT), deal a certain portion of weapon damage, and for good reason, because otherwise we would have nowhere near the amount of melee effects that other melee classes do.

This is how it has always worked for weapons with chances on "melee attacks"...and all that precedent is gone with this Gurthalak change. The way this weapon worked with our mechanics naturally means our proc rate will be higher, intentional action from Blizzard or not.

[Senka]

It seems someone doesn't know what a bug is. A game bug is when some mechanic doesn't work as intended due to an oversight. It was not intended for it to trigger from the Seal of Truth hit that applies Censure. As a result, Retribution's DPS was higher than intended after a certain point. The devs figured out that it was because this sword was proccing too much for Retribution and subsequently found this bug. They then fixed it.

That's it. That's all that happened. This is all a classic case of people reading things how they want to read them in order to support their side either because they don't fully understand English or they just enjoy the false support of ignorance.
When he said they took steps to "fix it", they meant the total damage of the sword's proc, not Retribution's damage as a whole, for one example.
For another example, that same bullet point DOES say it's a bug. Like he said, it wasn't an accidental bug fix because it was an intentional bug fix. It was simply proccing too much.
Finally, he says they apologize for not finding this out sooner, so they DID find this out pretty recently.
Finally #2: He says it is intended for Retribution to get twice as many procs as normal. My personal assumption is that this happens through the Seals of Command talent. The bug was that Seal of Truth was giving another chance to proc it, which resulted in more than two chances.

[Holtzmann]

Latest post overrules all previous posts. The proc rate being unintentionally higher for Ret is not a bug, so I disregard the other posts.

Hang on, if part of the game's inner workings not working as intended (giving Ret Paladins two chances to get a proc as opposed to one, regardless of what other classes have) is not a bug, then what is?

This was both a bugfix and a nerf. Of course, we're simply arguing semantics. The point being that something was not right in Blizzard's eys and they decided to change it to something they found appropriate. I don't doubt they'd do the same with every other outlier out there, but very few of them have issues that can be solved with such a tiny modification of the system. Paladins had one ability interacting weirdly with procs giving them more damage than intended. Fire Mages (to name an example) have an entire build that would have to be carefully examined before anything is done to it, since reckless changes could result in a domino effect that would put the spec even further away from where it's meant to be.

Jeez, those caster legendaries really aren't doing balance discussions any good...

[Mukki]

From my understanding the only way to proc the tentacle now is from Auto-attacks, Crusader strike and Templar's verdict? So our chance to proc it was basically halved, on single target? Whereas lets say an Arms warrior can proc it off...

auto-attack, overpower, MS, CS, heroic strike, slam, execute and does their mastery proc it?

An arms warrior can also ONLY deal physical damage, which is not always optimal. It's a tradeoff.

[Adhal-Blackrock]

Our logs are private Max. And that 98k was on trash lol.

Well shit... in that case, our ele shaman did 200k spamming 1 button... NERF! lol

[Phantoms]

It seems someone doesn't know what a bug is. A game bug is when some mechanic doesn't work as intended due to an oversight. It was not intended for it to trigger from the Seal of Truth hit that applies Censure. As a result, Retribution's DPS was higher than intended after a certain point. The devs figured out that it was because this sword was proccing too much for Retribution and subsequently found this bug. They then fixed it.

It seems someone doesn't know how Ret's mechanics work. Retribution needs the melee damage effects on Seal damage in order to compete with other melee classes that deal with procs based on "melee damage" effects. This goes for all the things in game from Bryn'troll to Tiny Abom to Landslide to Bone Link Fetish. Ret attacks too slowly to have similar procs as the other classes without this Seal effect.

That's it. That's all that happened. This is all a classic case of people reading things how they want to read them in order to support their side either because they don't fully understand English or they just enjoy the false support of ignorance.
When he said they took steps to "fix it", they meant the total damage of the sword's proc, not Retribution's damage as a whole, for one example.
For another example, that same bullet point DOES say it's a bug. Like he said, it wasn't an accidental bug fix because it was an intentional bug fix. It was simply proccing too much.
Finally, he says they apologize for not finding this out sooner, so they DID find this out pretty recently.
Finally #2: He says it is intended for Retribution to get twice as many procs as normal. My personal assumption is that this happens through the Seals of Command talent. The bug was that Seal of Truth was giving another chance to proc it, which resulted in more than two chances.

These extra chances flying left and right through whichever Seal effect are what Ret has always needed, and it hasn't changed, until yesterday, and from what it seems like--specifically to Gurthalak. How can all the previous history of a class's mechanics be ignored in the name of a "bug fix" without true understanding and explanation of the mechanics of Retribution?

[Fredzilla]

Hang on, if part of the game's inner workings not working as intended (giving Ret Paladins two chances to get a proc as opposed to one, regardless of what other classes have) is not a bug, then what is?

This was both a bugfix and a nerf. Of course, we're simply arguing semantics. The point being that something was not right in Blizzard's eys and they decided to change it to something they found appropriate. I don't doubt they'd do the same with every other outlier out there, but very few of them have issues that can be solved with such a tiny modification of the system. Paladins had one ability interacting weirdly with procs giving them more damage than intended. Fire Mages (to name an example) have an entire build that would have to be carefully examined before anything is done to it, since reckless changes could result in a domino effect that would put the spec even further away from where it's meant to be.

Jeez, those caster legendaries really aren't doing balance discussions any good...

And if this nerf-fix affects every other proc-off-melee-attack trinket/enchant/etc, it will do more in the end than they think it will. But I'm fairly certain that if you've played a paladin for any amount of time, even if that does happen and we fall below "where we're intended to be", they won't do jack shit about it until the overhaul for mists. We'll just be screwed for another entire patch.

Fire mages are the best dps with a legendary (from last tier) now, and were the best over people with legendaries in the last content patch of wrath. For claiming to try to balance things, they seem to be doing a terrible job of it.

[Deleted]

When I read it my first thought was : "Did everyone at Blizzard switch their heads with their penis?" And "Not sure if trolling?" I want this change to be reverted asap this is an unjustified nerf made by some idiot that doesn't know anything about ret mechanics. I expect everyone to demand reverting this change back. This is beyond retarded what they did.

[Holtzmann]

And if this nerf-fix affects every other proc-off-melee-attack trinket/enchant/etc, it will do more in the end than they think it will. But I'm fairly certain that if you've played a paladin for any amount of time, even if that does happen and we fall below "where we're intended to be", they won't do jack shit about it until the overhaul for mists. We'll just be screwed for another entire patch.

Fire mages are the best dps with a legendary (from last tier) now, and were the best over people with legendaries in the last content patch of wrath. For claiming to try to balance things, they seem to be doing a terrible job of it.

Do you know why they can't balance Fire Mages right now? Because it's a spec that relies both on execution and RNG, with abilities that feed on each other (Combustion, for example). Tweaking Fireball to do 20% less damage, for the sake of argument, might sound like a good way to cut down Fire DPS. But it will then affect Ignite as well, which will affect Combustion, which will reduce the damage even further. It would be a simple tweak if so much of it wasn't the result of the Legendary, since they could simply lower the benefit of Mastery or some other balancing knob they can play with, but since the Fire Mages that are breaking all records are all using that blasted Orange staff, if they do that the Fire Mages who don't have the legendary get shafted. Mind you, Blizzard probably thought they'd be balancing Fire with the buffs they've rolled out in 4.3, and it looks like even they, with far more knowledge and tools than we have, managed to overshoot it. Easy to balance, eh?

[Fredzilla]

Do you know why they can't balance Fire Mages right now? Because it's a spec that relies both on execution and RNG, with abilities that feed on each other (Combustion, for example). Tweaking Fireball to do 20% less damage, for the sake of argument, might sound like a good way to cut down Fire DPS. But it will then affect Ignite as well, which will affect Combustion, which will reduce the damage even further. It would be a simple tweak if so much of it wasn't the result of the Legendary, since they could simply lower the benefit of Mastery or some other balancing knob they can play with, but since the Fire Mages that are breaking all records are all using that blasted Orange staff, if they do that the Fire Mages who don't have the legendary get shafted. Mind you, Blizzard probably thought they'd be balancing Fire with the buffs they've rolled out in 4.3, and it looks like even they, with far more knowledge and tools than we have, managed to overshoot it. Easy to balance, eh?

I never said it was easy to balance. My thoughts are, though, that they should put the work where it's most sorely needed, aka fire and, to a lesser degree, arms. We'll have to wait and see how retarded rogues are with the legendaries.

[Volitar]

I know its a bug but why couldn't they just leave ret really good for once, not just average or good but on top of the meters? It seems they always have a gripe with certain classes being more than viable.

bullshit mang

[Fredzilla]

I know its a bug but why couldn't they just leave ret really good for once? Not just average or good but on top of the meters. It seems they always have a gripe with certain classes being more than viable.

bullshit mang

We were never top of the meters overall. We were miles behind fire and a good distance behind arms, and less so behind combat and shadow.

[Holtzmann]

I never said it was easy to balance. My thoughts are, though, that they should put the work where it's most sorely needed, aka fire and, to a lesser degree, arms. We'll have to wait and see how retarded rogues are with the legendaries.

I respect that, even though that's where we diverge: while I do agree that yes, those specs should be balanced out as soon as possible, I don't think they should hold back on fixing things they can fix already. The less things in line to be looked at, the more attention they'll be able to pay to the thornier issues like Fire Mages and Arms Warriors doing too much damage, Hunters doing too little compared to other Ranged DPS, and similar things.

And yeah, Rogues will probably be very high up with their legendaries. Although I believe that's the point so they won't be balanced until Mists of Pandaria is released and they're forced to replace their weapons.

[Volitar]

We were never top of the meters overall. We were miles behind fire and a good distance behind arms, and less so behind combat and shadow.

Well that's even more disappointing

[Fredzilla]

I respect that, even though that's where we diverge: while I do agree that yes, those specs should be balanced out as soon as possible, I don't think they should hold back on fixing things they can fix already. The less things in line to be looked at, the more attention they'll be able to pay to the thornier issues like Fire Mages and Arms Warriors doing too much damage, Hunters doing too little compared to other Ranged DPS, and similar things.

And yeah, Rogues will probably be very high up with their legendaries. Although I believe that's the point so they won't be balanced until Mists of Pandaria is released and they're forced to replace their weapons.

You also have to take into account, though, the time and effort you have to put into dealing with the responses of your quick and easy changes. The thread on the forums is 22 pages already, and i doubt public opinion of the nerf will change much at all. Whether or not such a nerf was warranted in the grand scheme of things (a plan that has yet to ever come into realization), a lot of people wont see it that way. They'll be angry, some no doubt irrationally so, and, because of how people view this, its just going to reinforce the theme of ret being screwed over for the last 7 years.

[Defender]

Well, looks like I missed it when it was too good. Not one has dropped in either normal or LFR raid for me, but I shall still be competitive with my 391 until 410 Slicer or 403 Gurth drops.

[Holtzmann]

You also have to take into account, though, the time and effort you have to put into dealing with the responses of your quick and easy changes. The thread on the forums is 22 pages already, and i doubt public opinion of the nerf will change much at all. Whether or not such a nerf was warranted in the grand scheme of things (a plan that has yet to ever come into realization), a lot of people wont see it that way. They'll be angry, some no doubt irrationally so, and, because of how people view this, its just going to reinforce the theme of ret being screwed over for the last 7 years.

Well, sure. At this point it's a matter of public relations as opposed to actual game balance. But I have the feeling Blizzard has simply realized that anything they do, even a flat-out buff, will most likely result in pages upon pages of complaints. If it's a nerf, it's instantly considered unwarranted. If it's a buff, it's never enough unless it's a ridiculously big one. In a situation like this, looks to me they're getting it over with quickly.

The amount of QQ that'll happen once Fire Mages are nerfed is going to be epic, though. Forget Ret being screwed for the last 7 years, what about all the Mages who were begging to be able to play Fire since Wrath and will have to go back to Arcane again?! The whining will be powerful enough to generate electricity from. Blizzard will become the first energy self-sufficient IT company.