A question about tank threat

[Deleted]

We are a very casual 10 man raiding guild doing Dragon Soul and we are running with the same two tanks every week. One DK and one Warrior. My question here is about threat. Our DK tank almost always has to stop doing whatever to give the warrior a chance to hold the boss. This is especially clear on Morchok, Ultraxion and Warmaster. My questions is if DK really is so much better at generating threat or if our warrior is doing something wrong.

Logs:

Morchok:http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/d...d/?s=362&e=557

Warmaster: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/d...?s=8036&e=8436

Any help is appreciated

[mistuhbull]

Dks are threat monsters.

[Omertocracy]

DKs do approximately 50% more dps in equal gear than Warriors, and apparently have a higher threat coefficient on their stuff too. I know that I rip threat off shield tanks whenever I want it. Hell back in Firelands sometimes I had to stop autoattacking because the white hits were pulling threat back.

[Xami]

Warriors probably generate the least threat among the 4 tank classes. It's the tanks' duty to watch aggro on tank swap. It's not as easy as just taunting and doing whatever.

[Deleted]

Thank you, it seems we are doing things right allthough it would have been great if our DK could go all out as all DPS helps.

[Deleted]

Most Warriors neglect aggrostats for (unneed) Stamina or Mitigation. Let him socket/reforge "properly" (so he can function) or get rid of him.

[Stuffs]

Thank you, it seems we are doing things right allthough it would have been great if our DK could go all out as all DPS helps.

If its a big deal, he could just swap presences for 5 seconds or what have you.

[Aquamonkey]

Thank you, it seems we are doing things right allthough it would have been great if our DK could go all out as all DPS helps.

Why doesn't he swap out of BP when it's the other tank's turn?

[Deleted]

Why doesn't he swap out of BP when it's the other tank's turn?

We are a very casual 10 man raiding guild

Thats why.

[Deleted]

If its an issue when the warrior is taunting off the DK, then it could just be down to the fact that the DK has a stack of Vengeance and the warrior does not.

Just ask the DK to hold off from smacking it as much just after the taunt.. Just to give the warrior a few seconds to build up a bit of a threat gap.

[Braindwen]

Intervene the DK after taunting, drops his threat 10% and should give a bit of a buffer.
Have some rage going into the swap so you don't just sit there auto-attacking. Inner rage+HS spam will help. Shield block+Shield Slam on the taunt is also a ton of threat.
Finally, the war can have Colossus Smash up for the taunt if he knows when it's happening. CS, switch to defensive stance, shout for some rage, taunt+intervene+SB+SS and laugh as you're suddenly at 150% threat and the other tank has no hopes of catching back up .
Hell, if healers know it's happening, have the warrior pop Recklessness.

And tell the DK to cool it on the DS's for at least a few seconds.

[Emane]

A good solution is to let the warrior start, so he get the initial vengeance. We had problems as well with the same tank combo. We swapped what tanks starts and it was perfect.

[DemoBytom]

full vengance stacked DK will always overaggro any other non vengance stacked tank that just taunted, since they do more DPS (therfore threat), especially if he gets 1-2 misses after taunting.. Just tell your DK to stop attacking for few secs.
Also using intervene after taunting is a good idea.

[Warhunt]

When it is time for a tank swap do the following:

1) Have the DK switch to frost presence
2) Have the Warrior taunt, then intervene the DK
3) Have your hunter cast MD on the warrior
10 seconds later (or more)
4) Have the DK switch back to blood if he wants to. Vengeance stacking is pretty sharpish after re-taunt anyway nowdays.

Really the se things are what should be fairly simple to work out for anyone raiding or knowing their class mechanics. The hunter should have piped up, knowing he could ease the pressure. The DK didn't swap presences once, knowing that this would ease the pressure and allow him to keep DPS'ing at similar levels.

[Deleted]

I simply can't get it how and why it is considered normal a dk to be able to pull out of this fight (Madness) 8+k more dps than a warrior tank.

I simply can't get how you can neglect that fact as an officer and have your warrior tank on spot. Ever since i remember this game warrior was steadily the last tank in damage output, the last tank in aoe threat and never the best in single target threat. When another tank is tanking is virtually imposible to pull agro off it unless if you crit by accident on pull 2-3 times in a row.
They fixed aoe threat a bit but damage and threat combared to dks is still a joke.

To hit cap and expertise cap to manage to pull agro from a blood dk that has 1% hit and 5 expertise rating is far from being called proper gemming and enchanting.

Warrior is fine, but in this tier that most fights are dps races, he is more of a dead weight especially in the small raid format.

[Deleted]

Lots of great suggestions, thank you so much. The advice to get rid of the warrior tank might have worked if it wasn't for the fact that we are rl friends and are raiding for fun and not server firsts.

[Deleted]

I simply can't get it how and why it is considered normal a dk to be able to pull out of this fight (Madness) 8+k more dps than a warrior tank.

I simply can't get how you can neglect that fact as an officer and have your warrior tank on spot. Ever since i remember this game warrior was steadily the last tank in damage output, the last tank in aoe threat and never the best in single target threat. When another tank is tanking is virtually imposible to pull agro off it unless if you crit by accident on pull 2-3 times in a row.
They fixed aoe threat a bit but damage and threat combared to dks is still a joke.

To hit cap and expertise cap to manage to pull agro from a blood dk that has 1% hit and 5 expertise rating is far from being called proper gemming and enchanting.

Warrior is fine, but in this tier that most fights are dps races, he is more of a dead weight especially in the small raid format.

The thing about this Tier, is that it's more about magical damage and enrage timers and thus you could argue that Warrior tanks like all other tanks should prioritize other stats such as Expertise and Hit.

Playing a Bear myself and through my gear, I'm Expertise and almost Hit capped. I bet you I wouldn't have any issues with gaining/maintaining aggro over that DK. But as a note, the Warrior has a longer ramp up time and that's just how it is. I tanked with a Warrior through Firelands and he had the same issue but at the same time it's not like it's impossible for a Warrior to maintain aggro.

Many others have given advice on how to make it easier for your Warrior OP. The only thing I'll add is to get some Expertise.

[Deleted]

The thing about this Tier, is that it's more about magical damage and enrage timers and thus you could argue that Warrior tanks like all other tanks should prioritize other stats such as Expertise and Hit.

Playing a Bear myself and through my gear, I'm Expertise and almost Hit capped. I bet you I wouldn't have any issues with gaining/maintaining aggro over that DK. But as a note, the Warrior has a longer ramp up time and that's just how it is. I tanked with a Warrior through Firelands and he had the same issue but at the same time it's not like it's impossible for a Warrior to maintain aggro.

Many others have given advice on how to make it easier for your Warrior OP. The only thing I'll add is to get some Expertise.

Still investing to mitigation since threat from dpsers now is almost a non issue.
When the fights have a second tank though, the problem arises and shines.
I have better gear, i have aprox the same hit and exp with the blood dk, still i have to use tricks like intervene and vigilance to maintain agro after a taunt. the fact that warriors have a talent called vigilance is a witness by itself that they have the lowest threat from all tanks atm.
At least i have the most tricks to counter it if it occurs (lose agro), and warrior has by still the most tools for the job.
I am not comblaining, but i feel like im drawing back the team when i see that i strugle to stay at 20k area while our less geared dk that recently restarted tanking after holidays, to flirt with 30k. In a fight that a lot is about dps, and in gunship, that the difference is also VERY obvious, i wonder what purpose do i have in the raid :s.
Thank god its v easy tier.

[Cactusbat]

Tell your warrior to Vigilance the DK as well and let the DK tank first. That'll help some with the vengence gap, plus above recommendations should completely fix the problem. Also tell your DK tank to swap presences during his downtime if he doesn't "need" the boosted armor and health.

[Deleted]

As some before me have stated, generally threat stats aren't worth it for progress, but once you get to a point where you can say: "Okay, wiping due to tank deaths is basically a non-issue now.", you should definitely start getting some threat stats. That way the boss will just go down a lot smoother and on top of that, your tank will add to the raid DPS.