Concealment operative nerfs plus smoother combat for their foes! awesome

[Deleted]

Anxious to see the combat on my concealment operative after this patch, nerfed damage, shorter knockdown and less armor pen plus added bonus of smoother combat making them classes that were affected by it the most effectively stronger....hoping its not going to kill the fun in playing a conceal OP, our pve damage already seems weak, we have no mobility and now pvp has had the nerfbat issued will it still be fun to play.... im having some serious worries, any other concealment operatives thinking the same?

[Grable]

Can't wait to play my Sentinel without ability delay/stuttering.

[vizzle]

1.1.1 hasn't gone through yet.

[Greevir]

1.1.1 hasn't gone through yet.

Correct, last nights patch was 1.1.0b which contains one of the ability delay fixes. The nerf to Operatives have not gone through yet.

[Shyzhi]

I got a feeling people will not play concealment after the patch, It will still be good ofc. But i feel Lethality will take the higher ground in damage in PvP. The nerf to the knockdown imo makes it kinda useless but then again, 1.5secs is kinda long sometimes :P you can get a good backstab out.

The ONE thing id love them to change is Evis and Headshot (not sure of republic ones) but there serv no use what so ever. ok maybe if your leveling you can get a nice attack out now and then but.. PvP cant use, Raids Cant use... id rather they lowered there damage abit and let us use it when we like.

[Khanjin]

Concealment was practically useless in PvE and will be even more so with these nerfs, though I welcome them in PvP. Hellooo pre-cata sub rogue.

[Valeron]

I got a feeling people will not play concealment after the patch, It will still be good ofc. But i feel Lethality will take the higher ground in damage in PvP. The nerf to the knockdown imo makes it kinda useless but then again, 1.5secs is kinda long sometimes :P you can get a good backstab out.

The ONE thing id love them to change is Evis and Headshot (not sure of republic ones) but there serv no use what so ever. ok maybe if your leveling you can get a nice attack out now and then but.. PvP cant use, Raids Cant use... id rather they lowered there damage abit and let us use it when we like.

I'd like to see overhead shot provide tactical advantage. I think that would be a good change for lethality.

1.5 second knockdown will be kind of useless except as an interrupt. Unless they change it also puts a full resolve bar on the opponent so you can't do any other cc on them. With the GCD you wouldn't be able to get a backstab off by the time the knockdown is over with.

[Tradewind]

Operative nerf was completely overboard. Compensating for L2P issues, nothing more.

[greysaber]

well that sucks, good thing i've moved to another class, temporarily. I'm going to play through a few of the stories before i really focus on my 50s.

[ghostprotocol]

Still leveling my operative for the story, but might just dump it afterwards. It's a bit strange though since it's one of the least classes people seem to play. Reminds me of wow vanilla warlocks. Rare.

[RoninaThorstone]

Concealment was practically useless in PvE and will be even more so with these nerfs, though I welcome them in PvP. Hellooo pre-cata sub rogue.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QXygi...eature=related

Infracted - Please don't post videos that don't add anything to the discussion. Thank you! ~Rag

[asharia]

already rerolled

with no burst dmg, ops are no longer a threat and an easy kill once they unstealth. like you said, no mobility. and by 'no', i dont mean low mobility. they literally have NO mobility. the only way to get to a target is to hold down both mouse buttons and pray you dont get snared and your target stand still for you.

[buddytonto]

Stolen from TOR forums:

Disclaimer: I don't have any more access to a combat log than anyone else does, so all of the numbers in these calculation are purely speculative, and based 100% on tooltip reports. I'm also going to ignore talents that aren't going to be changed this patch, as they aren't going to be of concern to most people.

Disclaimer 2: This is purely a numbers post and assumes an ideal situation with no CC break or support from allies. Since the damage from our ideal, un-countered opening burst with no outside interference prompted the nerf, I believe this is appropriate.

I've already posted the simplified version in the long thread regarding the subject, so Bioware will no doubt see it at some point and in some scope. Beyond that, I'm quite sure a lot of operatives already have realized what I'm about to write. This is for the rest of the community.

The damage numbers used in all equations were pulled from tool tips in-game on my operative (which is NOT in full PvP gear):

HS: 2385-2482 2434 avg
BS: 1609-1625 1617 avg
Shiv: 1497-1570 1534 avg
LC: 1513-1577 1545 avg
AB: 1576 1576 avg
Debilitate(DB): 456-488 472 avg
Explosive Probe(EP) 1905-1938 1922 avg
Flash Bang(FB): 0 0 avg

Our current opener is as follows.

Hidden Strike (HS) with Jarring Strike(JS) and Acid Blade(AB) -> Shiv -> Backstab(BS) -> (Target has escaped CC, and is immune to further CC at this point) -> Lacerate(LC)

That means on average, ignoring armor and the possibility of crits, we currently do:

2434 + 1576 + 1534 + 1617 + 1576 + 1545 = 8,646 damage

Again, before armor, and NOT including crits, buffs, debuffs or talents.

Moving on, that's our current Ideal opener. Again to clarify, this means if you don't break our CC or defend yourself/receive support from allies in any way. In other words, an ideal case for us.

As of patch 1.1.1, whether or not JS gives a full resolve bar, I will not be speccing into it. The reason why is pretty clear in the new opener we'll have access to. Not to mention the two extra talent points (minor buff to have them free).

The opening becomes:

(Opponent starts free to move) HS without JS -> DB -> (opponent is no longer free to move) -> BS -> Shiv -> LC / (Opponent is now free to move for part of a GCD) -> FB -> free action.

If I chose to use the free action to go into 'cover in place', plant an explosive probe on you, and then follow up with a backstab, I will add significant damage to my opener. Note: These are options I did NOT have before, because JS filled the resolve bar.

The numbers for the ideal(uninterrupted, no interference) case:

(.8)2434 + 1576 + 472 + 1534 + 1617 + 1576 + 1545 + 1922 + 1617 = 13,806 damage.

Yeah, that's right. More damage than before.

So by 'nerfing' the Operative, we have been given MORE freedom (JS was too useful to pass up previously. Now we have a choice) MORE control (access to 2 CCs (DB and FB) during a fight instead of one), and MORE damage during our ideal opening sequence (on the order of 40% more). Our only shortcoming will be the increased dependence on mid-length cooldowns (DB and FB), which will likely be mitigated by the time it takes to get back into stealth and find a new target in a typical warzone.

The only remaining concern is the armor pen component, and that won't make a large scale difference against our primary targets anyway. (That means you, all you sorcs out there). We still suck in group v group battles, and we still get kited, and mauled, and etc... but we're actually going to become stronger and more flexible in the 1v1s people are so enraged over.

Additional contributions, especially mathematical corrections or expansions on my lack of formulas, would be most appreciated, and I will add them here if offered.

[Matt0193]

Operative nerf was completely overboard. Compensating for L2P issues, nothing more.

Riiiiight, so when a geared Operative can 3 shot someone, with extraordinary ease when their trinket is on CD, it's an l2p issue? I don't mind being beaten if I'm outplayed but when I'm out-geared as well as out-classed because of one ability, that I've had crit me for 6k - good times -, It's just not an l2p issue.

I'd happily let them nerf Singularity. When I get all the gear and get Biochem sorted, I'll have the PvP Consumable(15% Expertise, and will not stack twice, also won't be able to use an Adrenal), Perma-Stim (120 something Str, and 60 something Power), Crit/Surge Trinket(Basically 100% Crit damage, rather than 50 and Guaranteed Crit from Charging anyway) and Singularity (100% more damage) to do 5-6k everytime I get 4 stacks. I can pull out two of those within 10s. I know, it's balanced. But hey, they have 10-14s to kill me before I kill them rather than me just three shot them.

And as the post above me outlines, your initial burst goes up, as well as giving you the freedom to pick up a second CC. So... what exactly got nerfed again?

[Deleted]

The burst was overboard, but I just hope they give something in mobility and/or defense to compensate. We have no staying power what-so-ever in combat as we burn through energy really fast and most of our damage comes from that opening burst. Afterwards I feel very, very weak, sure right now I might drop one out of three who are distracted but as soon as the other two notice me I am swatted like a fly if they have a brain. Nevermind that even now Heavies are very, very hard to even do comparable damage to.

If we can't instagib people yet can be instagibbed ourselves we need something to cover that weakness. If we are to stay in combat longer before getting a kill we need the means to do so, means we currently don't have.

And as the post above me outlines, your initial burst goes up, as well as giving you the freedom to pick up a second CC. So... what exactly got nerfed again?

You forget the number of gcds involved. The example provided above demands that the target doesn't move and no one else around does anything to us. Right now we spend say 3-4 gcds, that example is 7-8 if I remember correctly. Not comparable at all, if we can do damage without interruption for 10 seconds then that is a grave L2P problem on our enemies' side and they deserve to die, over and over.

[buddytonto]

You forget the number of gcds involved. The example provided above demands that the target doesn't move and no one else around does anything to us. Right now we spend say 3-4 gcds, that example is 7-8 if I remember correctly. Not comparable at all, if we can do damage without interruption for 10 seconds then that is a grave L2P problem on our enemies' side and they deserve to die, over and over.

The post made on the TOR forums was more about people now have to learn to play rather than use 3-4 gcds and kill someone.

The post detailed the ideal openings for pre and post patch. Pre had 6 abilities used, the new one had 8. And for a lot of rotation, the target is unable to move; you just utilize 2 cc's to fill the resolve bar instead of 1. Yes the rotation takes longer to go through, but in the end you end up doing more damage. So the issue is a L2P issue, because before, there was no learning. It was hit and kill for a lot of it. And this also means if they break the first cc, you can still root them in place as the resolve bar is not yet full. It provides more option to keep the targets at you instead of break and run on first attack. I honestly think once people get used to this, Ops/scoundrels will be more annoying than before, because they keep you around longer.

I personally run a medicine hydrid as an Op, and I use the CC sequence suggested in here, and it is quite amazing to keep someone incapacitated for a very long time, for me to be able to kill them or take them down enough it's an easy kill for the next passer-by.

[Valeron]

What i'll probably do is go down the lethality tree and put two points into the medicine tree for the quicker healing so I can get a tactical advantage without using shiv or hidden strike. A dps loss for sure but it will allow me to stay a bit away from melee range. Plus always wanted to try out lethality.

[kliffharry]

Yeah the nerf is way over the top. Next in line should be marauders with the obliterate -> force choke -> 4-6k aoe crit.

[Valeron]

I haven't really seen anyone else have a problem with marauders/sentinels. If anything I'd say they are due for a pvp buff.

[Deleted]

Stolen from TOR forums:

his "maths" are complete nonsense... he compares 6 gcds to 8 (9 or even 10, included the "cover in place" - in a melee fight, for at least 3 seonconds... range will escape, melees will beat the crap out of you) gcds ... but at least he recognizes it.

but even by just posting bullsquirt like this he challenges the community to cry out for more nerfs.

Scrapper/Concealment are quite useless in PvE, even more after the patch.

(I'm playing a Sawbones Scoundrel, but I played scrapper to gear up in pvp and while leveling.)