Denial of the Armenian Genocide is now criminalized in France!

[Deleted]

There are terrible consequences to allow bs to be spouted anywhere, all the time. It doesn't let people to accept reality and move on. It gives them the illusion that maybe reality can be negated if you believe strongly enough.

German people have been able to move on the terrible thing they did, and made provisions to prevent that from ever happening again. Turkish people simply denied, they justified themselves and they didn't make any provision to avoid bs rule their lives. And they are back at it again with the Kurds, and now even renouncing to their best heritage, being the only secular democracy of the muslim world. Soon they won't even have that left.

Allowing for deception to be freely defended leaves people undefended against con artists... look at the homeopaths, the antivaxxers...

[Deleted]

A new french law now criminalizes denial of the Armenian genocide. Lets hope more countries follow suit! No genocide should ever be ignored.

I approve. Should be like that in every country.

And no I don't view openly denying genocide or preaching false historical facts as "freedom of speech". They are part of indoctrination and malicious spread of misinformation. This is an offence and should be fined.

(Obviously no crazy jail time and stuff but it should be against the law in any case.)

[Deleted]

People should be allowed to have whatever opinions they want on any subject even if it's completely false and wrong. The law is terrible and wrong in my opinion.

But if the opinion is known to only hurts others, it shouldn't be said. We have just as much responsibilities as rights, people throw rights around.

[Urti]

Ouch, tough one.

Even though I am pro-speech and whatnot...



What are the possible outcomes of this law? I am siding with france on this one.


Genocide is bad, mmkay? But so its war, murder, and mayhem.

Also, did you forgot the reason why Iraq was invaded?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide

What the hell does Iraq have to do with genocide?

But if the opinion is known to only hurts others, it shouldn't be said. We have just as much responsibilities as rights, people throw rights around.

Thats where lots of people (european AND american) have issue with laws like this. The Gov't legislating versus Personal accountability. I suspect most people would rather have personal accountability. If someone says something hateful and/or insultingly stupid, then they have shirked their responsibility, but I am still free to make my opinion about their actions known. Up to and including not conducting business with them, excluding them from private functions, etc. Think of it like a personal version of Sanctions.

[Rork]

I approve. Should be like that in every country.

And no I don't view openly denying genocide or preaching false historical facts as "freedom of speech". They are part of indoctrination and malicious spread of misinformation. This is an offence and should be fined.

(Obviously no crazy jail time and stuff but it should be against the law in any case.)

History (from Greek ἱστορία - historia, meaning "inquiry, knowledge acquired by investigation") is the discovery, collection, organization, and presentation of information about past events.

Obviously this law is denying history, as we'll never achieve to acquire ALL the information about any subject in history.

It's like saying you can't deny the theory of evolution... not any scientist would want that not because this would shut the creationist but because we may find new evidences.

Please see how this kind of law are a bad thing for humanity, this leads to censorship, missuderstanding and hate you can recognise the genocide but you don't have to make a law coz that is pure censorship.

[Sterilize]

What the hell does Iraq have to do with genocide?

First Gulf War? Iraq invades Kuwait and kills hundreds of ethnic Kurds iirc. I don't believe it was officially labelled a genocide, but the same idea (smaller scale).

[Urti]

Ahh, thank you Sterilize and UnCorpse. I had forgotten about the Kurdish Campaign. Much clearer now.

[Adeodatus]

Good, it is already labeled as genocide in many countries. Sweden, not US it was stopped by Clinton I believe but most states did individually conclude that it was a genocide.
Dont know what the turks are up too, feel pretty damn bad that they cant accept their history. It is notlike todays turks or even their parents had anything at all to do with it.

Just another example of how fucked up national pride and patriotism can be.

Doesn't mean you get to legislate thoughts, opinions, and speech in this manner. This law is evil in its own right, just as what those Turks did to the Armenians was evil.

In a situation like this I personally think it is better to censor someone or force them to admit reality.

The human race as a whole is pretty stupid and willing to follow anyone as long as they have a convincing argument, but just because someone has a convincing argument doesn't mean they're right. Should these people have the chance to spread that message of denial and hate?

Now I understand that people shouldn’t be restricted beliefs and opinions or what they say, but come on people a dose of common sense here wouldn’t be bad thing.

Just because people have the “right” to free speech doesn’t mean they should always be able to exercise it. At what point do you step in and stop them? After 100 followers? after 100,000 followers? After a million followers? By a million followers it’s too late and that message of hate is too ingrained.

For the benefit of the many a few should be silenced.

Now of course this idea can be perverted to the benefit of a few, but, is it any worse than letting bad ideas spread without control? As a member of parliament it is your duty to ensure that ideas and speech that will greatly hinder the development of society are kept in check.

The only other alternative is to allow people to do/say whatever they want destroying society as we know it.

You Sir, are someone that needs to be kept far away from the reigns of government. Your line of logic, rationale and reasoning leads to the enslavment of your fellow man. Period.

[Sterilize]

As shocking as it may seem - there's a ton of room on the spectrum between criminalizing genocide denial and North Korea. It's not like people in France will wake up tomorrow under a totalitarian regime.

[codesennin]

And let's not forget the one of my own kin...

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_genocide

[Deleted]

History (from Greek ἱστορία - historia, meaning "inquiry, knowledge acquired by investigation") is the discovery, collection, organization, and presentation of information about past events.

Obviously this law is denying history, as we'll never achieve to acquire ALL the information about any subject in history.

It's like saying you can't deny the theory of evolution... not any scientist would want that not because this would shut the creationist but because we may find new evidences.

Please see how this kind of law are a bad thing for humanity, this leads to censorship, missuderstanding and hate you can recognise the genocide but you don't have to make a law coz that is pure censorship.

I was expecting this argument but look. It is called "theory of evolution". It is not called the "theory of the holocaust" (or the "theory of the armenian genocide").

You can believe whatever you want but as soon as you go around and preach it openly it's the same as calling someone the N-word to their face. Or is it also called the "theory of slavery"? Not that I'm aware of.

[Rork]

I was expecting this argument but look. It is called "theory of evolution". It is not called the "theory of the holocaust" (or the "theory of the armenian genocide").

You can believe whatever you want but as soon as you go around and preach it openly it's the same as calling someone the N-word to their face. Or is it also called the "theory of slavery"? Not that I'm aware of.

Or you can convince ppl by giving argument like we do in science and not saying "it's the law shut the fuck up" because people won't believe you and that will cause missunderstanding and hate.

History is serious for some people, as I know there are no laws against denying slavery in the USA ... do you see a lot of ppl denying or even question it? No, because it's fucking well documented and you don't need a law you just need argument.

I don't want to live in a country that forbids me to think one way because now it's the Shoa and the armenian genocide, next you won't be able to deny that sadam had weapons of mass destruction.

An you say it's not called the theory of holocaust but I think it should as in science nothing is closed you can allways find new things, only in religion you cannot question the book.


Watch out for your freedom

[Deleted]

As shocking as it may seem - there's a ton of room on the spectrum between criminalizing genocide denial and North Korea. It's not like people in France will wake up tomorrow under a totalitarian regime.

That's what they said in Germany too...

Just seems most people here don't understand free speech. If you stand for free speech, you also allow people to say controversial things. If you can't allow people to say controversial things like these, then you don't believe in free speech unfortunately.

We in Europe have never really been strong on free speech.

[Stelio Kontos]

And let's not forget the one of my own kin...

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_genocide

I'm Greek, I mentioned it in my posts as well, some use the Term "Anatolian Genocide" to cover the liquidation of Turkey's Armenians, Greeks, and Assyrians rather than referring to each one separately, since they all occurred during the same period.

What the Turks did was similar in my view to what the western Europeans did in North and South America. The Turkish hordes washed in out of central Asia starting in the 10th or 11th century, and eventually wiped out the indigenous populations.

Asia Minor's native inhabitants were the Greeks, Kurds, Armenians, and Assyrians. It's not a coincidence all have suffered genocide or oppression at the hands of the central Asian Turks.

[Kuntantee]

I'm Greek, I mentioned it in my posts as well, some use the Term "Anatolian Genocide" to cover the liquidation of Turkey's Armenians, Greeks, and Assyrians rather than referring to each one separately, since they all occurred during the same period.

What the Turks did was similar in my view to what the western Europeans did in North and South America. The Turkish hordes washed in out of central Asia starting in the 10th or 11th century, and eventually wiped out the indigenous populations.

Asia Minor's native inhabitants were the Greeks, Kurds, Armenians, and Assyrians. It's not a coincidence all have suffered genocide or oppression at the hands of the central Asian Turks.

and... Turks did not suffered from Greeks' hands? Don't be such hypocrite...

[Stelio Kontos]

and... Turks did not suffered from Greeks' hands? Don't be such hypocrite...

Turks and the natives of the region killed each other in wars, no one is faulting anyone for doing that.

But only the Turks engaged is a systematic effort to exterminate or drive out their minorities.

False equivocation ftl.

[Frontenac]

Fail.

While they're correct, that's a fucking dangerous precedent. You can't start to legislate how people can interpret history.

Let's legislate next that you can't deny that Sarkozy has always been the son of God and the supreme ruler of France.

It's already been done for the Shoah in numerous countries. So it's hardly a precedent.

[Kuntantee]

Turks and the natives of the region killed each other in wars, no one is faulting anyone for doing that.

But only the Turks engaged is a systematic effort to exterminate or drive out their minorities.

False equivocation ftl.

That's your opinion, however, it's not a fact. If you check previous pages, a user posted some articles(written by american historicians) stating that it was nota genocide. I wonder which physical proofs(!) you're basing your "opinion".

It's funny that no one could answer back to that guy because most of you just writing something just because you saw it on TV!

Whole world can shout that it was genocide but only Turkey will decide it which I'm so glad.

[Stelio Kontos]

That's your opinion, however, it's not a fact. If you check previous pages, a user posted some articles(written by american historicians) stating that it was nota genocide. I wonder which physical proofs(!) you're basing your "opinion".

It's funny that no one could answer back to that guy because most of you just writing something just because you saw it on TV!

Whole world can shout that it was genocide but only Turkey will decide it which I'm so glad.

I listed plenty of parties that recognize it, including a world-wide group of scholars who have no interest in the issue one way or another. Turkey had a reason to deny it of course, they can't be fair in their denial.

Then again, considering Turkey's barbaric human rights record, and the fact that EVERY ethnic and religious minority in Turkey has been oppressed or butchered at some point, Turkey's true colors are pretty clear.

[ggwowbb]

World is going to believe an unproven genocide.Lots of lobbying lots of bribing unending propagand,whining,insincere ceremonies etc.
Many people say ''denying a genocide is dumb..'' but its not only we Turks deny it.It is also being denied by countless professors,historians and nations.Armenians using these tools so often ''..their denial..'',''...a normal actions of deniers..'',''...they say like that because of their denial propagand..''.As i said its an unproven genocide unlike the holocaust.So why we should admit it as genocide?Which nation would admit a genocide that is actually not a genocide or unproven?
Turkish government called Armenian government to start a complete research about the event in 1915.Our government said,let both Turkish and Armenian historians work together,as well as many historian from all around the world,they should research objectively if it was a genocide or not.Armenian government strongly opposes this research invitation and guess what,they say ''...this is also your denial propagand...''.
Propagand winning over truth nowadays but truth can not be hidden forever.Maybe it was really a genocide maybe it was not.I have strong reasons to believe that it was not a genocide but after a complete research historians may agree on that it was a genocide.On that day,i also will stop denying the Armenian genocide.If historians prove that it wasnt a genocide i dont think Armenians stop whining and admit that it was a part of war and not a genocide.
Armenians are the far most racist nation in the world,if you really really know some of them you would see that.Do not let propagand blind you,do not let Armenians' christendom card effect you and do not blinded by your hatred on Turkish nation.This issue must be examined objectively.