When is it ok to be bad

[Halabash]

tldr; title says it all.

I read the forums most days and the general consensus I get from MMOs is that if your a bad player you are ruining the game for everyone.
I am a former player of Wow let me put that to rest right now. I read the forums to see if the game is moving toward a more appreciable culture. done , now to the point, the normal progression for a player shows that at some point they had no idea what they were doing.

We read the instructions given by the game for basic understanding, we experiment with spells and abilities, we use our imagination, we level, we read up on our hunches about what can be done with a class at its highest level, we go through trial and error, we die, we are the reason for a wipe, but at some point we get better.

We are in the top of the charts for whatever it is that we do, then we feel it is our duty to continue to improve, contribute to theorycrafting, study the highest echelon of gameplay, and become an authority on the game, the raid, the class etc. But all of us, relative to the rest of the community, are miles behind someone in terms of understanding maximized functioning and application of that understanding. To someone somewhere you are bad, you are ruining the game, you are killing your guild, you are being told or at least someone is thinking you should try your hand at something else because this is not going to lead to a happy ending for you.

Why do we beat up on those that are struggling? why do we even care about those that are struggling? When you log in and get ready to arena or raid or whatever, you are in like company, when you step out of that bubble why do you think or anticipate that the rest of the community is in the same boat in terms of experience and study why approach the community with such elitism and hostility? This mind state actually drives the good players out of the community, they drive themselves crazy and have to do something else because whenever they log in they get upset.

(side note) I think the reason for this stems from satisfaction of actually berating another player the way that you were berated, kind of like what happens to kids who are a product of an abusive home they grow up to become abusive themselves. The cyclical nature of this problem, I fear will be the undoing of many games, the next gen that blizzard is targeting with MoP have grown under big brothers and sisters that have grown under their parents IN azeroth.
If blizzard can break this culture it can regain the game, maybe that's why the sudden shift in demographics, out with the old in with the new?

[Deleted]

It's never OK to be bad.

If you can't ace your rotation by the time you're 85 you should delete the game and go play with dolls.

[Halabash]

ok so at max level the game doesn't "start over", there is no retooling? you just have to ace your rotation, hmmm maybe even if you don't have a "rotation"? I still don't get it, if that person quits and goes and plays with dolls who is going to be there for you to team up with once they figure it out? This is very self destructive community wise.

[Mistral]

I never had problems with people who are playing subpar, but there are people who aren't just bad but also don't even want to improve.
There are those days when everything you start will fail. Shit happens. It's okay as long as you're able to recognize your mistakes and then try to overcome them.
But "beeing bad" should never used as an apology for not even trying.
Most of the time it's really not about "gaming skill" but about the ability and intention to learn.

[scdogg44]

Thing is I don't care if people are bad. As long as they try.

What pisses me off are people who just don't care and waste my time, and purposely do stupid shit.

[Autofollow]

I think a lot depends on the definition of "bad". There are certainly players that don't know how to gear, gem, enchant, reforge, rotation... pretty much anything and everything about the game.

These are people who don't know about any of the websites such as MMO Champion or Tankspot or Elitist Jerks.

These are people that log in and use the built in HUD the game provides. They use the abilities that appear on the hotbar and they usually click and most likely keyboard turn. They don't roll on the items that they probably should, and do things like loot leather when they are a hunter or a pally.

They generally just don't have the same overall view on the game that a seasoned player will.

That being said, there will always be "those" players. And it's fine to have them. You have to expect and accept it. Why waste your time being a dick about it in a chat channel?

Everyone starts somewhere and I guarantee that none of us logged in to the game on day one and knew everything that it had to offer. we had help from some place, and a few started in Vanilla but had to learn the same as everyone else.

The "bad" players can continue to be "bad" until the time comes when they want to belong to a guild that actively raids normal content. That is about the time that they need to learn how to properly play the class and do all of the things like gem, enchant, reforge, glyph, spec, and all the other myriad details that are involved. And it's the responsibility of a "good" guild to work with players like this. I've found some very good diamonds in the rough so to speak. They just needed some instruction. Now, if they aren't receptive to any instruction then they need to be removed and that is that.

[Someudontno]

Thing is I don't care if people are bad. As long as they try.

What pisses me off are people who just don't care and waste my time, and purposely do stupid shit.

I completely agree. I don't mind if people aren't the best at playing their class, as long as they put forth sufficient effort.

[oplawlz]

I never had problems with people who are playing subpar, but there are people who aren't just bad but also don't even want to improve.
There are those days when everything you start will fail. Shit happens. It's okay as long as you're able to recognize your mistakes and then try to overcome them.
But "beeing bad" should never used as an apology for not even trying.
Most of the time it's really not about "gaming skill" but about the ability and intention to learn.

This pretty much sums it up. When you have a level 85 wearing the wrong armor type, and they get mad at you for whispering them with ways they can improve, they're "bads". There is simply no justification for rudely refusing any advice which can make you a better player.

That being said, I am completely against drama in any pug. It is childish and wastes more time then a wipe ever does. Same with loot drama, earns you an instant ignore from me.

[Psychadous]

I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that the forum people are talking about the ones that don't learn.
Yes we all were baddies at one point, even if it was for a few moments. However, there are people out there that no amount of instruction or hand holding will fix. And I shall recount an example for you:

Back in Wrath our guild held a 25 man pug when you could do both 10 and 25 in a single week. We never did make it very far due to a low population server with several 25 man guilds still active. However, the one requirement we had for joining the raid was to link the achievement for at least 10 man up to Rotface. Obviously, this means they had to have at least seen the fight. Without fail every week there was some poor retard that would stand in the green ooze he would spit out in front of him for the full duration and die. Now, this didn't occur once or twice it would happen four or five times until the raid time had elapsed. The first time I would call out to not stand in it and explain why. The second time I would being forcefully calling individuals out and after the third time I would just full out rage at them. Sometimes this worked. For some reason shocking people can scare them into line, but every week there would be at least one person that would remain full retard. Obviously, we kept track of these and didn't invite again, but the damage was done.

So in conclusion, yes many of us can take experience and advice into account and then improve our performance. But, experience has shown that there are some that are simply incapable of help. Those are the ones that are "ruining" the game.

[Halabash]

I think a lot depends on the definition of "bad". There are certainly players that don't know how to gear, gem, enchant, reforge, rotation... pretty much anything and everything about the game....

Everyone starts somewhere and I guarantee that none of us logged in to the game on day one and knew everything that it had to offer. we had help from some place, and a few started in Vanilla but had to learn the same as everyone else.

The "bad" players can continue to be "bad" until the time comes when they want to belong to a guild that actively raids normal content. That is about the time that they need to learn how to properly play the class and do all of the things like gem, enchant, reforge, glyph, spec, and all the other myriad details that are involved. And it's the responsibility of a "good" guild to work with players like this. I've found some very good diamonds in the rough so to speak. They just needed some instruction. Now, if they aren't receptive to any instruction then they need to be removed and that is that.

This makes sense to me. Kudos! I think if the rest of the game could define bad as this all would be well. I just believe that being bad is not a static disposition, its transient and all of us are there at some point, so why berate someone for it? How can any of us possibly know how much effort someone has put into learning their character when all we have to go on is character level? Its a huge assumption and its makes the community look like a bag of assholes when we start spouting off that someone has no skill in chat channels so we can feel big b/c this time we didn't cause the wipe.

[Thorfisnson]

This pretty much sums it up. When you have a level 85 wearing the wrong armor type, and they get mad at you for whispering them with ways they can improve, they're "bads". There is simply no justification for rudely refusing any advice which can make you a better player.

That being said, I am completely against drama in any pug. It is childish and wastes more time then a wipe ever does. Same with loot drama, earns you an instant ignore from me.

Fully agree had a DK tank today in an HV who even after being asked nicely to use D&D failed too. Had green 318 legs no enchants or gems, yada yada, yada we've all been there - now that is a bad!

[Underskilled]

It's never ok to be bad. It is, however ok to be new. The difference of course being, a new player will ask for help or advice on improving themselves, while using sites like this, or EJ, to improve themselves further. A bad player will do none of that.

[Halabash]

I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that the forum people are talking about the ones that don't learn.
Yes we all were baddies at one point, even if it was for a few moments. However, there are people out there that no amount of instruction or hand holding will fix. And I shall recount an example for you:

Back in Wrath our guild held a 25 man pug when you could do both 10 and 25 in a single week. We never did make it very far due to a low population server with several 25 man guilds still active. However, the one requirement we had for joining the raid was to link the achievement for at least 10 man up to Rotface. Obviously, this means they had to have at least seen the fight. Without fail every week there was some poor retard that would stand in the green ooze he would spit out in front of him for the full duration and die. Now, this didn't occur once or twice it would happen four or five times until the raid time had elapsed. The first time I would call out to not stand in it and explain why. The second time I would being forcefully calling individuals out and after the third time I would just full out rage at them. Sometimes this worked. For some reason shocking people can scare them into line, but every week there would be at least one person that would remain full retard. Obviously, we kept track of these and didn't invite again, but the damage was done.

So in conclusion, yes many of us can take experience and advice into account and then improve our performance. But, experience has shown that there are some that are simply incapable of help. Those are the ones that are "ruining" the game.

point taken and ty psychadous! this is a good example and from the exceptional perspective of a raid leader kudos! Raid leading is the hardest job in the game, it carries the highest expectation and failure is not tolerated. Raiding on a low pop server means that each player on that server means a whole lot more there than on a higher pop server. As the raid leader you correctly identified the problem player, but it took 3 times before they got the message, you failed at communicating and took it out on the new guy. Yeah he wasn't listening, but your raid invited him based on a criteria that you cannot hope to infer any real appreciable measure of learning or skill or ability. Yes "yelling" at people and getting "fired" up and "passionate" about succeeding are excellent leadership qualities, but effective communication is paramount to effective execution. The fact you refer to them as a retard betrays your higher intent on bringing out the best in your players. Once you blacklisted all the retards and your core players either quit or move on who are you going to use to fill your raid? why not keep bring the poor guy so that next time he will come already knowing what to do since you already "coached" him in the proper mechanics of the fight, instead of doing the same thing all over again with another new guy?

---------- Post added 2012-01-31 at 06:04 PM ----------

Fully agree had a DK tank today in an HV who even after being asked nicely to use D&D failed too. Had green 318 legs no enchants or gems, yada yada, yada we've all been there - now that is a bad!

did the group succeed? was it just harder on you? did you learn to play your character differently to adapt to a new situation? are you the best at what you do? does someone think that you are bad?

[ComputerNerd]

There is a difference between inexperience and a poor player.
That term "Bad" is often misued by an ignorant community which just assumes anyone below some meaningless measure is inferior.
It is never ok to be in content you are simply not prepared for.
It is ok to be inexperienced, as long as others are aware of that, but you are at least prepared for it.

[Halabash]

It's never ok to be bad. It is, however ok to be new. The difference of course being, a new player will ask for help or advice on improving themselves, while using sites like this, or EJ, to improve themselves further. A bad player will do none of that.

well community sites like mmo-champ and ej are not a requirement for purchasing the game or downloading it otherwise, and many players would rather figure out how to play on their own, not necessarily told how to play by someone else. So is it safe to believe you understand bad players to be those that do not seek outside help for understanding, if a player relies on themselves too much then they are a bad player?

[Butterland]

Of course it's ok to be bad. I wouldn't have much fun in random BGs if every opposing player was good.

[Heltoray]

hit 85 -> google some guide for your class -> do right what you did wrong -> if you are unable to, you are a bad player.

No, it isn't difficult with some thinking and the playing experience you get till level 85...
Also, lots of bad players actually hide behind the term "casual". Casual shouldn't mean bad but the bads are certainly among those who call themselves casuals.

[hawtlol]

One of my really good friends is actually one of these bad players. He has played the game since release, he researches his class and everything, but he lacks common intelligence. He tunnel visions, keyboard turns, and doesn't use any keybindings. When I tell him to stop all of these things he says it won't make a difference,

[Underskilled]

well community sites like mmo-champ and ej are not a requirement for purchasing the game or downloading it otherwise, and many players would rather figure out how to play on their own, not necessarily told how to play by someone else. So is it safe to believe you understand bad players to be those that do not seek outside help for understanding, if a player relies on themselves too much then they are a bad player?

Basically, yes. It's foolish to think you don't need help from anyone, or anything, to start playing a game like WoW for example, correctly. Just the same as picking up an instrument, or learning a trade skill in life, if you don't look for help or advice, you're not going to get anywhere.

[hawtlol]

People like you need to get it into their head that with THIS attitude, you better be in one of the world first guilds, because quite frankly I would consider you "bad" if you are "only" in a 4/8 HM guild.

If you aren't aware it takes 9 to 24 other people to complete a raid. Just because his guild is performing at a 4/8HM level doesn't mean he is. That goes for other players as well. Not everyone can be in a world first guild because of exclusivity. People I'm sure have the skill to be just as good as some of the people in guilds like Paragon but are never given a shot.