Rogues

[Flaks]

No? ALL of it was in i377. I didn't even get to do anything that game because i went into cc him being at 80% and i got out when he was 25%, i also mentioned that. But you like to base judgements on a 1 minute view, therefore i don't even value it.



Your point being? It's not that patch that made Rogues suddenly omfg wtfbbq good. Rogues before that patch underperformed heavyly in damage.

Ofcourse it now comes back at us, but at the time.. that didn't make us top of the line.

Actually, they didn't. Rogues have been strong in every department throughout this expansion. The fact that they had abysmally low representation was, I'd say, in overall arena rep. If you looked at 2200+ ratings like we do now you'd notice rogue representation was actually fairly high.

The thing is, with things such as glyph of blind and sanguinary veins not allowing gouge to break on your bleeds, rogues have lost their retard checks. They have fallbacks. And then they have fallbacks for their fallbacks. This gutted the rogue skill floor to the extent that any joe schmoe can play a rogue at a moderately competitive level. The damage changes for PvE only exacerbated a problem that was already inherent in the spec.

[Shaderas]

They are not going to nerf rogues, and you want to know why? Because Blizzard realizes that the people QQ'n are doing so about the top <1% of rogues. If they make changes they will destroy PvP for up-and-coming rogues.

I actually get to have my turn at being in the top three strongest PvP classes, and the QQers are trying to cockblock...get out of the way boy, and let me have my turn!

Eh, Rogues have always been strong in PvP. So have Mages, and before Cataclysm I would have said warriors were always in a good position for PvP.

Don't get me wrong, I like being powerful in PvP, but I don't want to be overly so. I think a lot of the problems we are having with Rogues right now are due to balance adjustments made early in Cataclysm for PvE (seriously, Rogues sucked early in Cata for raiding)... Blizzard probably did think these changes through, but not well enough for end game Cataclsym, and now we're seeing Rogues scale way too well with top end gear available. The biggest problem is that it appears Blizzard (and they may change their mind) will not bring Rogues down until MoP... making this a LONG PvP season for everyone who hates Rogues.

---------- Post added 2012-03-02 at 04:33 PM ----------

Actually, they didn't. Rogues have been strong in every department throughout this expansion. The fact that they had abysmally low representation was, I'd say, in overall arena rep. If you looked at 2200+ ratings like we do now you'd notice rogue representation was actually fairly high.

Rogues (when Cata first started) were nearly 5k DPS behind other specs in raiding. Someone posted a graph of DPS from World of Logs early in Cata, and Rogues were the low man on the totem pole for DPS classes. I know this doesn't have an impact on PvP, but that's why you see a lot of the early changes which we are really feeling the effects of now.

[Evolixe]

Actually, they didn't. Rogues have been strong in every department throughout this expansion. The fact that they had abysmally low representation was, I'd say, in overall arena rep. If you looked at 2200+ ratings like we do now you'd notice rogue representation was actually fairly high.

We were not strong in 4.0.3. I can give you that without a doubt. We got placed in a good position that should have been left alone in 4.0.6 in my opinion.

As of the high representation, pvp rogues are popular. Even when we are overall the least played class of the game.. pvp rogue is probebly the only class that outnumbers their pve brothers.

People playing a rogue untill then mostly did for years and got to love the class for what it is. In good and in bad times. I recognize myself in that alot aswell. I wouldn't leave this class even if it was nerfed to the ground. As long as it keeps it's "touch" so to speak.

[Nocuous]

Eh, Rogues have always been strong in PvP.

Yeah, no. In cataclysm up to 4.3, Rogues were a strong supporting class and had good survivability, but never a major threat when it came to doing anything more than supporting the group. Personally, I never liked being relagated to a supporting class. Yes, we scale well with gear, but we are on par with frost mages and blood dks. If Blizzard nerfs damage, control, or survivability, they will be nerfing low to mid-high level rogues to the point that it will not be fun for them to PvP.

Personally, I would love to see this thread locked and see it disappear because it is obviously not adding anything to the discussion nor will Blizzard be making changes until MoP. Continuing this discussion is only getting people arguing and upset with each other...

[Shaderas]

Yeah, no. In cataclysm up to 4.3, Rogues were a strong supporting class and had good survivability, but never a major threat when it came to doing anything more than supporting the group. Personally, I never liked being relagated to a supporting class. Yes, we scale well with gear, but we are on par with frost mages and blood dks. If Blizzard nerfs damage, control, or survivability, they will be nerfing low to mid-high level rogues to the point that it will not be fun for them to PvP.

Personally, I would love to see this thread locked and see it disappear because it is obviously not adding anything to the discussion nor will Blizzard be making changes until MoP. Continuing this discussion is only getting people arguing and upset with each other...

As you stated (and I'm sure a lot of people would disagree with you on this one), Rogues were a strong supporting class and had good survivability, thus they were still strong in PvP.

I'm not sure what you are stating about low to mid-high level rogues... if you are talking about actual character level, Rogues are very strong at less than level cap. If you are talking about skill level, I consider the argument irrelevant... a lot of people (more than people who play rogues) are saying it's not fun to fight a Rogue right now, because they are not balanced well. And, if you look objectively, I think you'll agree that we are overtuned. Possibly not as much as some of our biggest complainants are saying, but nonetheless we are too strong.

I've never been a fan of the "I felt weak for so long, so I want my turn to be powerful" argument. That's not balance. That's the pendulum swing back and forth of nerf and buffs. And while this does seem to be Blizzards practice at times, it's not a good one.

[ophion1990]

so after 26 pages we have:
1. almost every non-rogue saying rogues are OP
2. a lot of rogues saying rogues are OP
3. a lot of bad rogues (think we all know who they are) saying rogues are fine
4. some (probably good) rogues saying they are balanced, and that other classes should be brought in line.

all I know is my rogue is in every single way superior to my warrior.
Oh and 6k ticks of recup ftw.

I was doing a BG 2 days ago,and had on me, Bane of agony, devouring plague, SW:P, frost fever, blood plague, and I just /sprint and let recup heal me up. Recup outhealed 5 dots on me (albeit probably from poorly geared people), but that's just too much healing for a non-healing class.

Hey, this warrior outhealed all my grey geared mage's damage while he was deepfreezed omg QQ! I got a rake tick from 600 the other day, outhealing damage from people in terrible gear isn't what PvP should be balanced around. Also to get 6k recup ticks you need 160k hp which you only have if you get MotW/Kings and the priest buff unless you are still specced in imp recup.

I agree though, recup heals alot and rogues are superior to warriors atm. Rogues do have alot of control and survival... but I said this so often since the new season started ... so many classes are out of line atm that nerfing rogues would hardly even matter, put them on par with warrs and feral will reign supreme, put those on par with them and it'll be DKs again, I'm just talking about melee ofcourse, multiple caster have ridiculous burst aswell. Not to mention that one caster with just as much control and more burst then a rogue.

Let's just wait for MoP and start with a clean slate for all classes, and hope that balance will be better in that xpack, I doubt blizzard is gonna bring another patch with a number of class changes when they are already having their team work on the new MoP spells etc.

I've never been a fan of the "I felt weak for so long, so I want my turn to be powerful" argument. That's not balance. That's the pendulum swing back and forth of nerf and buffs. And while this does seem to be Blizzards practice at times, it's not a good one.

Not to mention that this argument is completly wrong for rogues aswell, the last time we were actually bad in PvP was ... oh right, never?

[Bisque]

from blizz you will just the usual "we don't balance around 1v1", whether that is because they don't know how or that it will take too much effort-I can't tell you. Nothing
new to see here, the cycle will again repeat come MOP and I guarantee the new crippling poison talent stun will open up a whole new flood gate of QQ.

[Shaderas]

Also to get 6k recup ticks you need 160k hp which you only have if you get MotW/Kings and the priest buff unless you are still specced in imp recup.

Eh, I hate to nitpick (well actually, I don't hate it, but I realize it's a bad habit), but you can get 6k Recuperate tics by taking Quickening and Improved Recuperate. It's a tradeoff for what you lose, but it can be worth it at times.

[Wolfdragon]

We were not strong in 4.0.3. I can give you that without a doubt. We got placed in a good position that should have been left alone in 4.0.6 in my opinion.

As of the high representation, pvp rogues are popular. Even when we are overall the least played class of the game.. pvp rogue is probebly the only class that outnumbers their pve brothers.

People playing a rogue untill then mostly did for years and got to love the class for what it is. In good and in bad times. I recognize myself in that alot aswell. I wouldn't leave this class even if it was nerfed to the ground. As long as it keeps it's "touch" so to speak.

I'm really sorry to pull this threath out, but remember that rogue that was whooping you really badly in durotar all the time, and that shut's you up constantly on the eu forums? Zanaken was the name I remember, I happen to be a good friend of said person, I believe you migrated to stormscale because of the same guy, and well he points out, that your expirience, and view's on rogues are entirely biased and utterly wrong. He also points out, a good rogue can stop 3 people from hitting his healer for 6seconds even if they trinket. Whereas you have issues with two people in arena, I've faced you, and I'm far from impressed. Oh how I love when people talk smack when they're from Stormscale, that's my home turf kid, LEARN YOUR PLACE.

[Nocuous]

As you stated (and I'm sure a lot of people would disagree with you on this one), Rogues were a strong supporting class and had good survivability, thus they were still strong in PvP.

I'm not sure what you are stating about low to mid-high level rogues... if you are talking about actual character level, Rogues are very strong at less than level cap. If you are talking about skill level, I consider the argument irrelevant... a lot of people (more than people who play rogues) are saying it's not fun to fight a Rogue right now, because they are not balanced well. And, if you look objectively, I think you'll agree that we are overtuned. Possibly not as much as some of our biggest complainants are saying, but nonetheless we are too strong.

I've never been a fan of the "I felt weak for so long, so I want my turn to be powerful" argument. That's not balance. That's the pendulum swing back and forth of nerf and buffs. And while this does seem to be Blizzards practice at times, it's not a good one.

A strong support role is not for rogue...paladin, druid, priest, shaman? Yes, those are supporting roles. Rogues should be on par with the best classes in game. They finally are...I'll have fun with them finally putting us on par with the rest of the "favored classes" until MoP.

The part about low level and mid-high level was about the fact that rogues are really weak when they try and start up pvp. These people coming in and boasting of 60k backstabs are flat out lying, I can only assume they are lying to get people worked up and call for rogue nerfs. The only thing low ilvl rogues are good at when they start PvP, is getting a cheap shot in, cloak, and vanish...

I'm done with this stupid back and forth, it solves nothing, and the moderator should see that...

[Kreeshak]

Yeah, no. In cataclysm up to 4.3, Rogues were a strong supporting class and had good survivability, but never a major threat when it came to doing anything more than supporting the group. Personally, I never liked being relagated to a supporting class. Yes, we scale well with gear, but we are on par with frost mages and blood dks. If Blizzard nerfs damage, control, or survivability, they will be nerfing low to mid-high level rogues to the point that it will not be fun for them to PvP.

Personally, I would love to see this thread locked and see it disappear because it is obviously not adding anything to the discussion nor will Blizzard be making changes until MoP. Continuing this discussion is only getting people arguing and upset with each other...

For the underlined part, just for one second, imagine how much fun lesser geared warriors are having right now in pvp. Especially when they have to face a rogue which consists of numerous fotm rerollers. Try to realise that 385 ilvl rogues are completely destroying 400 ilvl warriors in bgs and arenas. Try to think how life would be if you didn't have your guaranteed spot in a RBG because of skill bomb and every RBG group considered your as lolarms. I consider the underlined part outrageous arrogance for the reasons mentioned above.

For the italic part I also disagree. Everyone should see in the first page of one of the communitys most popular forums the truth about rogues. They should realise that they lose to a broken class design and not because they are lesser skilled. They should feel better for venting their fustration just as like talking to a shrink. And Blizzard should be embarassed for poor pvp balancing. And once rogues are fixed, even in mop, and they cry people should direct them to this thread and realise that arrogance or ignorance got punished.

[Lulbalance]

For the italic part I also disagree. Everyone should see in the first page of one of the communitys most popular forums the truth about rogues. They should realise that they lose to a broken class design and not because they are lesser skilled. They should feel better for venting their fustration just as like talking to a shrink. And Blizzard should be embarassed for poor pvp balancing. And once rogues are fixed, even in mop, and they cry people should direct them to this thread and realise that arrogance or ignorance got punished.

Exaggeration.

I've been playing my destro lock in bg's lately just to see if i'm crazy for my pro-rogue position..if you dont know the state of destro atm; it's pretty awful and arguably one of the hardest class specs to play.

Sure a few rogues have dropped me, but nothing crazy..and they certainly had to work for it. people are overreacting as usual when they cant global a class down without paying attention to their CDs.

Giving people an excuse to be bad like 'it's not you its the class your facing' is sorta a sad way out, and not one that i'd ever take. to each their own tho.

EDIT; recoupe and double bomb .. the only two things i can't defend in terms of Opness..that sounds dirty.

[Kreeshak]

Giving people an excuse to be bad

After all these MASSIVE unrest and complaints, I find it amusing that if you lose to a rogue, then you must be "bad", especially if you outgear the rogue by a whole 15 ilvls.

[Rorke]

Exaggeration.

I've been playing my destro lock in bg's lately just to see if i'm crazy for my pro-rogue position..if you dont know the state of destro atm; it's pretty awful and arguably one of the hardest class specs to play.

Sure a few rogues have dropped me, but nothing crazy..and they certainly had to work for it. people are overreacting as usual when they cant global a class down without paying attention to their CDs.

Giving people an excuse to be bad like 'it's not you its the class your facing' is sorta a sad way out, and not one that i'd ever take. to each their own tho.

BRB, i'm going to play a spec that nobody plays, run a few bgs, claim I'm good at it and then go on the forums to tell people on the forums that I'm not having a hard time against rogues.

Therefore, the game must be balanced only bad players complain and don't know how to use their cds properly. I am so cool and much better than 90% of the players that play this game.

[Asatru]

For the underlined part, just for one second, imagine how much fun lesser geared warriors are having right now in pvp. Especially when they have to face a rogue which consists of numerous fotm rerollers. Try to realise that 385 ilvl rogues are completely destroying 400 ilvl warriors in bgs and arenas. Try to think how life would be if you didn't have your guaranteed spot in a RBG because of skill bomb and every RBG group considered your as lolarms. I consider the underlined part outrageous arrogance for the reasons mentioned above.

For the italic part I also disagree. Everyone should see in the first page of one of the communitys most popular forums the truth about rogues. They should realise that they lose to a broken class design and not because they are lesser skilled. They should feel better for venting their fustration just as like talking to a shrink. And Blizzard should be embarassed for poor pvp balancing. And once rogues are fixed, even in mop, and they cry people should direct them to this thread and realise that arrogance or ignorance got punished.

You see, here's the thing tho. Rogues are NEVER going to get "fixed." Look at their new poisons they're getting in MoP. The Paralytic Poison they're getting is a root-effect...NOT a stun so unless Ghostcrawler decides to put both roots and stuns on the same DR... They're getting an other CC that's applied passively or with Shiv ON TOP of their current Stuns for even MORE control. Ghostcrawler and "his" development team really have no clue what they're doing.

[Deleted]

So when do rogues get balanced? I think pretty much everyone (high or low rated) will agree that rogues are insanely overpowered at the moment. Before 4.3 they were good, but not really OP. THey have the utility (stuns, slows) and they have the survivability (cloak, vanish) and since 4.3 they also have insane damage. This all has to do with the extra agility bonus they get from mastery (passive ability called Sinister Calling) and it needs to be tuned down. Even rogues who aren't that good can beat a skilled player. And at the moment rogues have NO COUNTER at all, as opposed to any other class. Maybe blood DK, but let's not start about those.

What have other people to say about rogues and their state at the moment?

You are a warlock. Even a blue geared rogue will tear you apart.
As for rogue counter:
gnomes, fucking gnomes. Can't see where the back is, can't backstab= no damage.

[Lulbalance]

BRB, i'm going to play a spec that nobody plays, run a few bgs, claim I'm good at it and then go on the forums to tell people on the forums that I'm not having a hard time against rogues.

Therefore, the game must be balanced only bad players complain and don't know how to use their cds properly. I am so cool and much better than 90% of the players that play this game.

wow.. someone is projecting his own feelings of inadequacy. It's like if 2 guys buy the same underwear and one says 'hey this is alittle snug' and the other says 'weeeellll look who thinks he's so great cause he has a big d*ck!!'

no one said that bro - you wildly missed the point. thanks for making this about me and not rogues though. the point was - if i'm not getting ruined against them playing that class and spec its because they can be handled if you play against them correctly. i dunno how else to dumb that down so you get it..BECAUSE of that - the argument that rogues are somehow infallible is just false.

i've played for 3/4's of a decade.. i damn well better be a better player then the majority of wow players.

[Kreeshak]

You see, here's the thing tho. Rogues are NEVER going to get "fixed." Look at their new poisons they're getting in MoP. The Paralytic Poison they're getting is a root-effect...NOT a stun. They're getting an other CC that's applied passively or with Shiv ON TOP of their current Stuns for even MORE control. Ghostcrawler and "his" development team really have no clue what they're doing.

I didn't look at the talent trees thorougly, but one change I saw is that rogues will have to choose between shadowstep and preperation which is a nerf if you ask me.

[Lulbalance]

After all these MASSIVE unrest and complaints, I find it amusing that if you lose to a rogue, then you must be "bad", especially if you outgear the rogue by a whole 15 ilvls.

A 2400+ player of any class or spec is NOT letting an honor-geared rogue solo him..period. Unless that rogue is played exquisitely...and exquisitely played rogues are NOT wearing honor gear at this point in the season ^^.

not sure what the def. of good and bad players is to you..

[Diaxx]

Yeah, no. In cataclysm up to 4.3, Rogues were a strong supporting class and had good survivability, but never a major threat when it came to doing anything more than supporting the group. Personally, I never liked being relagated to a supporting class. Yes, we scale well with gear, but we are on par with frost mages and blood dks. If Blizzard nerfs damage, control, or survivability, they will be nerfing low to mid-high level rogues to the point that it will not be fun for them to PvP.

Personally, I would love to see this thread locked and see it disappear because it is obviously not adding anything to the discussion nor will Blizzard be making changes until MoP. Continuing this discussion is only getting people arguing and upset with each other...

Stopped reading there... There is not a single blood dk over 2200.