U.S. Presidential race - Democrat Discussion

[Deleted]

Removing a pay floor makes the pay floor effectively zero. The race to the bottom is not some made-up horror story, it actually happened. That's WHY we have pay floors.

When has this happened? When?

Remember that time before unions and minimum wages? It was called the 19th century. Real wages still rose at speeds that hadn't been seen in the history of man up to that point.

"Race to the bottom" in terms of wages displays a fundamental lack of understanding of how the markets work. Most people today are not being paid a minimum wage, how can you explain that if you believe the floor is the only thing preventing most of us from being paid $1/hr.

[Sunseeker]

When has this happened? When?

Remember that time before unions and minimum wages? It was called the 19th century. Real wages still rose at speeds that hadn't been seen in the history of man up to that point.

"Race to the bottom" in terms of wages displays a fundamental lack of understanding of how the markets work. Most people today are not being paid a minimum wage, how can you explain that if you believe the floor is the only thing preventing most of us from being paid $1/hr.

You realize that since people in the general populace essentially weren't paid at all for their services in large party due to slavery, servitude, feudal systems and that sort up until the 1800s, going from being paid nothing to being paid 10c is an incredible change. Unless you're going to put out some actual numbers, I'm going to continue to keep in mind that you are entirely ignorant of world history.

And are you seriously suggesting that half the working populace is being paid significantly over minimum wage? Being paid 7.35 instead of 7.25 isn't a legitimate improvement.

[Riidii]

Removing a pay floor makes the pay floor effectively zero. The race to the bottom is not some made-up horror story, it actually happened. That's WHY we have pay floors.

Countries without a minimum wage have better wages than we do.

What you said is just a bold face lie.

Don't make shit up, go look at the data.

[Sunseeker]

Countries without a minimum wage have better wages than we do.

What you said is just a bold face lie.

Name some.

[Lenonis]

The irony is that you're criticizing others for "lack of even basic economic theories" and then you throw out this:



What the hell? That's not what removing minimum wage leads to.

/facepalm. You missed my point. I wasn't trying to argue economic theory. I was just trying to show that wages and standard of living is more complicated than just minimum wage. I was exaggerating on purpose to show my point. Subtlety doesn't work very well on these forums...

[Catta]

Then it is wrong.

If it's suggesting that inflation is only something along the lines of 200% in the last 50 years, it's using the wrong numbers.


To this I can only say:


I've got friends and family who work @ Starbucks, and I'll tell you this: they're about as generic as teenagers come.

I wish my country had more starbucks - i hear its good, if overpriced, coffee - i also need to learn to drink coffee...

[Deleted]

You realize that since people in the general populace essentially weren't paid at all for their services in large party due to slavery, servitude, feudal systems and that sort up until the 1800s, going from being paid nothing to being paid 10c is an incredible change. Unless you're going to put out some actual numbers, I'm going to continue to keep in mind that you are entirely ignorant of world history.

And are you seriously suggesting that half the working populace is being paid significantly over minimum wage? Being paid 7.35 instead of 7.25 isn't a legitimate improvement.

Here's an example from Sweden (compiled by their central bank, Riksbanken). They had under 5% unionization in 1900 where this chart ends.

And are you seriously suggesting that half the working populace is being paid significantly over minimum wage? Being paid 7.35 instead of 7.25 isn't a legitimate improvement.

But if wages would only go down if the minimum wage didn't exist, why are people paid 7.35 and not 7.25? The median (middle of the pack) U.S. wage is considerably above $7.25 anyway.

[Sunseeker]

Here's an example from Sweden. They had under 5% unionization in 1900 where this chart ends.

Since when do unions have anything to do with this? Unions serve a similar but different purpose than minimum wage.

But if wages would only go down if the minimum wage didn't exist, why are people paid 7.35 and not 7.25? The median (middle of the pack) U.S. wage is considerably above $7.25 anyway.

Source?

[Deleted]

/facepalm. You missed my point. I wasn't trying to argue economic theory. I was just trying to show that wages and standard of living is more complicated than just minimum wage. I was exaggerating on purpose to show my point. Subtlety doesn't work very well on these forums...

Yes, the minimum wage as it stands in the U.S. right now has a minimal effect no matter how you look at it. But it's still one of the most stupid policies that exist.

Since when do unions have anything to do with this? Unions serve a similar but different purpose than minimum wage.

Well, take Finland for example, we don't have a mandated minimum wage. But we have a defacto minimum wage set by the big central workers union and the big central employer union, that applies to everyone in that field.

My point was that they didn't have a minimum wage in Sweden back then, and they also didn't have what I explained above because unionization was so low.

Source?

Remember, this isn't average, it's median. It also ignores total compensation, and consists of only raw wage.

[Lenonis]

Yes, the minimum wage as it stands in the U.S. right now has a minimal effect no matter how you look at it. But it's still one of the most stupid policies that exist.

Do you at least agree that if you were to abolish minimum wage that it would have the effect of lowering wages for at least a non-insignificant part of society? Do you also agree that without changes to other areas that relate to cost-of-living that you could create a real problem for people managing to survive? At best you end up with a class of people that work full time but are also on welfare because they can't afford day-to-day necessities. That's hardly ideal.

[Riidii]

Do you at least agree that if you were to abolish minimum wage that it would have the effect of lowering wages for at least a non-insignificant part of society? Do you also agree that without changes to other areas that relate to cost-of-living that you could create a real problem for people managing to survive? At best you end up with a class of people that work full time but are also on welfare because they can't afford day-to-day necessities. That's hardly ideal.

One of the ripples of abolishing the minimum wage is price reduction.

So the prices you see now, wouldn't be the prices after the law was removed.

The increased labor allows business to be more productive, which means more supply which drives down the price of goods.

It will also create more competition, which is healthy for the consumer market and drives down prices as well.

[Wells]

One of the ripples of abolishing the minimum wage is price reduction.

So the prices you see now, wouldn't be the prices after the law was removed.

The increased labor allows business to be more productive, which means more supply which drives down the price of goods.

It will also create more competition, which is healthy for the consumer market and drives down prices as well.

Not all prices are effected by a reduction in minimum wage. Apartment rental costs for instance.

[Riidii]

Not all prices are effected by a reduction in minimum wage. Apartment rental costs for instance.

How would that not be effected?

[Deleted]

Do you at least agree that if you were to abolish minimum wage that it would have the effect of lowering wages for at least a non-insignificant part of society? Do you also agree that without changes to other areas that relate to cost-of-living that you could create a real problem for people managing to survive? At best you end up with a class of people that work full time but are also on welfare because they can't afford day-to-day necessities. That's hardly ideal.

The minimum wage can theoretically slightly push up someone's wage, for example if the minimum wage is $8, and the market price would really be $7,90 - then it's possible that the employer will just squeeze his margins and hire that person. Overall, this is an absolutely insignificant effect, compared to the relatively small effect of decreased income because you're "banned from working" if you can't justify a certain wage. In general, those who are being paid the minimum wage, already do work that justifies the minimum wage.

What removing it would do though, is create lots of below minimum wage employment opportunities, especially for teens and young people who are looking to penetrate the jobs market. They would develop marketable skill and gain experience that increases their productivity at warrants higher wages.

The Federal Reserve of Cleveland did an interesting study that shows that the largest beneficiaries of minimum wages are union employees, who earn much, much above the minimum wage.

The net result of all these differences in minimum wage effects is that the earned income of the
lowest-wage nonunion workers (and indeed all nonunion workers up to four times the minimum) is estimated
to decline as a result of a minimum wage increase, while the earned income of low-wage union members is
estimated to rise, with the estimated effects statistically significant

...Union members stand to gain from minimum wage increases because a higher wage floor shifts labor
demand toward higher-paid and higher-skilled workers who are more likely to be union members.

http://www.clevelandfed.org/research...999/wp9919.pdf

[Wells]

The minimum wage can theoretically slightly push up someone's wage, for example if the minimum wage is $8, and the market price would really be $7,90 - then it's possible that the employer will just squeeze his margins and hire that person. Overall, this is an absolutely insignificant effect, compared to the relatively small effect of decreased income because you're "banned from working" if you can't justify a certain wage. In general, those who are being paid the minimum wage, already do work that justifies the minimum wage.

You can't claim the effect is insignificant then turn around and claim its causing unemployment problems. You also have to weigh increased purchasing power to slightly lower employment.

What removing it would do though, is create lots of below minimum wage employment opportunities, especially for teens and young people who are looking to penetrate the jobs market. They would develop marketable skill and gain experience that increases their productivity at warrants higher wages.

What experience would a sub minimum wage job give you that actually gives you a serious shot at a better job?

[Riidii]

What experience would a sub minimum wage job give you that actually gives you a serious shot at a better job?

Work experience is extremely valuable because of networks/connections and references.

A good reference is a great asset.

[Deleted]

You can't claim the effect is insignificant then turn around and claim its causing unemployment problems. You also have to weigh increased purchasing power to slightly lower employment.

There's no increased purchasing power. That's a complete red herring because overall wages decrease.

And I guess you misunderstood my point. My point was that while minimum wages can theoretically create a tiny, tiny increase in the wages of a few people on the margin, this is so insignificant that it is totally outsized by the loss of income by those who can't get hired because of minimum wage.

And I then added that overall, the minimum wage is not a significant factor in the economy.

What experience would a sub minimum wage job give you that actually gives you a serious shot at a better job?

Job experience, even at retail jobs, increase your value for the employer. For example having customer service experience in some random clothing stores is needed to get better customer service jobs, for example as a bank clerk. Few people are going to hire you for a "proper" job if you do not have atleast some low-level work experience. Very valuable for kids and young adults.

[Wells]

Work experience is extremely valuable because of networks/connections and references.

A good reference is a great asset.

What connections and networking would you gain working a sub minimum wage job? What references would you gain that better employers would care about?

There's no increased purchasing power. That's a complete red herring because overall wages decrease.

You haven't shown they decrease at a matching rate.

Job experience, even at retail jobs, increase your value for the employer. For example having customer service experience in some random clothing stores is needed to get better customer service jobs, for example as a bank clerk.

Only if that experience translates into something useful to them in their opinion. I can tell you the first design firm I worked for gave no fucks about the years I spent working in an arcade.

[Riidii]

What connections and networking would you gain working a sub minimum wage job? What references would you gain that better employers would care about?


You haven't shown they decrease at a matching rate.


Only if that experience translates into something useful to them in their opinion. I can tell you the first design firm I worked for gave no fucks about the years I spent working in an arcade.

You can't be serious Wells.

I mean, cmon.

If you go out of your way to really impress your boss, who knows what will happen.

[Deleted]

You haven't shown they decrease at a matching rate.

No, they decrease beyond "matching". The cleveland fed study concludes that. You do not create purchasing power by telling people they can't work. And deciding to pay more to your employee without any increase in productivity only increases the employees purchasing power at the expense of the shareholder's.

Only if that experience translates into something useful to them in their opinion. I can tell you the first design firm I worked for gave no fucks about the years I spent working in an arcade.

True, but in most fields at start it does. Probably not in design. Ofcourse, when you're becoming a Partner at a law firm, where you worked as a teen is of no relevance. But when you're trying to get that intern slot or associate job, it does matter.