GW2 Thief Discussion

[DrakeWurrum]

how did i not see this thread before? D:

yay thief!
and stuff!

uhm.. well i'm just gonna go to bed, but cu tomorrow or so :I

We're really good at staying hidden, it seems.

[Deleted]

The 2nd character i'll make! A sylvari thief. So psyched for this profession. Every video i've seen so far looks incredibly sick.

[Sy]

stabby stabby :3

stabbidy stabstab ^_^

We're really good at staying hidden, it seems.

apparently so! \o/


ANYWAY, thief build!
for direct contact pvp, aka 1v1+, with focus on shadow-dancing around the enemy, high initiative and crits.
the "trickery" minor traits seem very overpowered at the moment, though. 50% more initial initiative (duh..) and up to 25% more damage? m'kaaay o_o

whatcha think?

[Chaith]

stabbidy stabstab ^_^


apparently so! \o/


ANYWAY, thief build!
for direct contact pvp, aka 1v1+, with focus on shadow-dancing around the enemy, high initiative and crits.
the "trickery" minor traits seem very overpowered at the moment, though. 50% more initial initiative (duh..) and up to 25% more damage? m'kaaay o_o

whatcha think?

There are still traits and utilities that make no sense. They'll most likely be changed before live, but still, your build having them seems weird.

Utility skill: Shadowstep.. ground targeted shadowstep on a 60s cd. VS. Infiltrator's signet.. enemy targeted shadowstep on a *30s cd* *plus passive initiative regen*

Power balance seems a little bit lopsided.

Look at the trickery major traits: "bountiful theft: when stealing get *A 10s might, OR swiftness OR fury*" VS "Thrill of the crime: when stealing, *you AND all allies get might AND fury AND swiftness"

Again, why are two major traits so unbalanced? haha. I like your build, but when theorycrafting, I'd probably pick the blatently OP ones.

[Delias]

There are still traits and utilities that make no sense. They'll most likely be changed before live, but still, your build having them seems weird.

Utility skill: Shadowstep.. ground targeted shadowstep on a 60s cd. VS. Infiltrator's signet.. enemy targeted shadowstep on a *30s cd* *plus passive initiative regen*

Power balance seems a little bit lopsided.

Look at the trickery major traits: "bountiful theft: when stealing get *A 10s might, OR swiftness OR fury*" VS "Thrill of the crime: when stealing, *you AND all allies get might AND fury AND swiftness"

Again, why are two major traits so unbalanced? haha. I like your build, but when theorycrafting, I'd probably pick the blatently OP ones.

I don't see how it's lopsided with the information given.
About the shadowstep, the 60second CD one can be used offensively and defensively, and survivability is important.
About the theft, it does not say the duration of the might/fury/swiftness, for all we know it could be a 2 second duration. >.>

[Sy]

There are still traits and utilities that make no sense. They'll most likely be changed before live, but still, your build having them seems weird.

Utility skill: Shadowstep.. ground targeted shadowstep on a 60s cd. VS. Infiltrator's signet.. enemy targeted shadowstep on a *30s cd* *plus passive initiative regen*

the two are very different, ground targeted has way more uses than just shadowstepping towards your enemy. in addition, from what i've seen in the beta, it is a double-activation skill, meaning you can shadowstep to the location and activate it again a few seconds later to shadowstep back to the original location - regardless of where you've moved in the meantime. this is not reflected by the tooltip, sadly.

i think the skill has GREAT potential, as it is much more than a simple gap closer, it is a targeted teleport with potential double effect.

"bountiful theft: when stealing get *A 10s might, OR swiftness OR fury*" VS "Thrill of the crime: when stealing, *you AND all allies get might AND fury AND swiftness"

the 2nd one does not tell us about the duration. i figured it may buff all allies, but only for 3-5 seconds. i'm pretty sure anet is not so stupid not to notice that the 1st one would be useless otherwise.

I like your build, but when theorycrafting, I'd probably pick the blatently OP ones.

i'm pretty sure it will be damn hard to theorycraft a "best" and "strongest" build in gw2 pvp, honestly.
besides, i've always liked to play in my own playstyle, not with min-maxing (unless a big group depends on my performance) and unlike many others who do so, i'm doing usually doing very well with it :]

[DrakeWurrum]

As the latest Jon Peters interview suggested, it's impossible to really know, right now, that something is OP, and something is weak. Aspects of your build may not work out the way you think, especially since the trick to good builds is the ability to master said builds.

It's why I'm still having a hard time solidifying even one build for my Thief main, beyond which weapons I want to favor. I have yet to experience the way any of these skills or traits work and interact, and thus I'm having a hard time deciding which method of traiting will suit me best, let alone what utilities I actually will want to use.
Will I want to be more mobile? Will I want to use poisons like mad? Should I focus on damage-improving utilities, or would I rather focus on controlling the enemy, or supporting allies? Should I get Haste so I could double-speed rez? Which elite skill is best suited to my tastes?

I'd still like to see the trait that gives stealth while rezzing in action, so I can decide just how useful it really is. If it stealths both people just for rezzing, rather than for a successful rez only, it may be one of my favorite traits, especially in pvp.

[Delias]

As the latest Jon Peters interview suggested, it's impossible to really know, right now, that something is OP, and something is weak. Aspects of your build may not work out the way you think, especially since the trick to good builds is the ability to master said builds.

*cough* permastealth *cough*
Seriously, if that's not fixed by now I'm going to /wrists.

[DrakeWurrum]

*cough* permastealth *cough*
Seriously, if that's not fixed by now I'm going to /wrists.

And how do you know that it's OP?

How do you know that the perma-stealth isn't easy to counter, or that it provides any serious benefits beyond the element of surprise?

If a Thief ever allows himself to drop below 5 initiative, which he will want to do if he intends to do any serious harm to an enemy, he can no longer stealth (with CnD anyways). And even when he is stealthed, if you have any indication that he's nearby, any ability, not just aoe, is capable of hitting him and breaking it.

For all you know, X/dagger with those 15 points specifically used for perma-stealth, is balanced around the concept of perma-stealth, by virute of the choices you're not making.

[Delias]

I'm confused,
are you seriously arguing that having an enemy that you can't see for the WHOLE fight 'may be balanced'?
o.o

If you can break it by using some sort of AoE that's understandable, I suppose, but I didn't see any indication of that being the case.

[DrakeWurrum]

are you seriously arguing that having an enemy that you can't see for the WHOLE fight 'may be balanced'?

A Thief being perma-stealthed requires a minimum of 5 initiative, and absolutely requires that the only button he ever pushes, is the off-hand dagger 5 skill, while having two very specific traits that requires 15 points spent in Shadow Arts.

No other action can be taken, ever, or else his stealth is broken.

[Delias]

A Thief being perma-stealthed requires a minimum of 5 initiative, and absolutely requires that the only button he ever pushes, is the off-hand dagger 5 skill.

No other action can be taken, ever, or else his stealth is broken.

1-2.5k damage every time he uses it, damage that he takes does not break him out of stealth.
There is nothing the necromancer can do besides run away.

.. how is the first fight in the video balanced in any way?

[DrakeWurrum]

damage that he takes does not break him out of stealth.

This needs to change.

1-2.5k damage every 3 seconds is worthless. Any faster than that, stealth isn't permanent.


In addition: Have you considered what happens if you apply a daze, stun, or knockdown at just the right moment? HAI THIEF WASSUP

[PonyCannon]

I think the 5 skill on the dagger just needs a CD along with the initiative cost. If you pop in and out of stealth with multiple CDs that seems fine in my eyes but just being able to time hitting one button and do steady damage while invisible does not seem okay.

[DrakeWurrum]

I think the 5 skill on the dagger just needs a CD along with the initiative cost. If you pop in and out of stealth with multiple CDs that seems fine in my eyes but just being able to time hitting one button and do steady damage while invisible does not seem okay.

It may even be that the weapon shouldn't even have a built-in stealth.

But I'm still convinced that the playstyle will be plenty balanced. If you kill somebody by doing 1-2.5k damage every 3 seconds out of, what, a 20k health pool...

Then fine, spend 30 seconds on one guy. With you doing nothing else, to anybody else, whether it's enemy or ally.

[Delias]

This needs to change.

1-2.5k damage every 3 seconds is worthless. Any faster than that, stealth isn't permanent.


In addition: Have you considered what happens if you apply a daze, stun, or knockdown at just the right moment? HAI THIEF WASSUP

In a fight that the enemy can do nothing to fight back, it doesn't matter how 'worthless' the damage is (though 2k every 3seconds out of a less than 20k health pool isn't that low, esp if you're not fighting back. Look how short the fight was. GW2 fights aren't 2second fights, 30seconds isn't that long.)

I'm not saying they shouldn't be able to re-stealth after their stealth runs out, I'm saying there should be some way to counter it.
Currently, it's just a straight up perma stealth. It needs to be a perma stealth unless they fight back, or SOMETHING, because currently it's unfair.
It shouldn't be dependent on knockdowns, because having no way to fight back against someone unless you brought a specific counter skill is hardly fair.

[DrakeWurrum]

because having no way to fight back against someone unless you brought a specific counter skill is hardly fair.

......................................

The whole game is built around this.

Either way, you seem to be missing just how weak and worthless you are in that situation, giggling while you hide in stealth and slowly dig your dagger between their ribs. It's not hard for them to stop you if they're not dumb.

[Delias]

......................................

The whole game is built around this.

Either way, you seem to be missing just how weak and worthless you are in that situation, giggling while you hide in stealth and slowly dig your dagger between their ribs. It's not hard for them to stop you if they're not dumb.

The whole game is built around 'if you don't have this specific skill, you are screwed'?
See, I wasn't under that impression, I was under the impression that you could make any build work.
This perma stealth, assuming they do not fix it and you actually need a knockdown to beat them, seems to be contradictory of that.

[Chaith]

......................................

The whole game is built around this.

Either way, you seem to be missing just how weak and worthless you are in that situation, giggling while you hide in stealth and slowly dig your dagger between their ribs. It's not hard for them to stop you if they're not dumb.

While you bring up a lot of points as to why it's not a complete win button, I can't believe that CnD is working as intended.

Yeah, the opportunity costs of plinking away at someone's health bar every 4 seconds is high. But I see this technique going against the spirit of the game, a technique that just isn't fun for either party.

[DrakeWurrum]

A technique that will only work 1v1.