I'll guard you. Let them come through ME first! - Guardian discussion thread.

[WALSRU]

If only we could test it, I'll be at work during the next stress test QQ.

I don't like how high my utility cooldowns are on this build but if I keep Judge's and go with Mace I can still break stun and do a little more upfront damage. The lack of blind from my sword skill might make my Radiance points less useful. Might have to rethink that one. Possible 10 into zeal for 10% more damage on burning enemies and the 10% boost to conditions.

I hear ya on the shouts and I'll have to experiment with it. I've never been partial to buff/debuff playstyles and that's why I went for a more visual wall-off style of Guardian. I really love the diversity within classes.

[DrakeWurrum]

Well the key thing is the ability to dodge, and also the fact that blocking with an Aegis.... probably prevents the application of conditions/effects.

[WALSRU]

True, there are a lot of things I didn't pay much attention to on my Guardian. Especially my F keys.

Any other traits I'm missing out on to compliment my build?

Can't wait to roll Asura Guardian for the lolz. I may try a triple spirit weapons build in the future too.

[DrakeWurrum]

Oh, there's probably half a dozen different ways to do a "Taric" build. You could trait specifically for symbols, for example. You could, as I suggest, focus your build around Shouts. You could probably do a build for both symbols AND meditations, since symbols come as weapon skills. You could even build for consecrations, since you seem to have the goal of point control in pvp.

Maybe when gw2builds.org finally updates their tool to BWE#2 (they seem painfully slow at this, I almost want to offer my arguably lacking programming skills and speed it along), I'll play around with the tool for a good week or two and come up with a ton of crazy builds.

If I were to build a Taric, I'm fairly partial to this build, even though I don't actually grab traits for the shouts. I'll have to see how good/bad symbols actually are. It's honestly difficult for me to resist grabbing Pure of Voice, because I love the idea of not only cleansing off conditions, but converting them into boons.

[Zilong]

at Ynna

So you are saying you already had to defend this a bunch of times? (I didnt read all the posts so far, or even if they are here in this foruns).

But if you did kinda makes me think I'm not so out of the box here.

Ill tell you what, I love guardians and I have fun with them. To be honest I dont care much if it doesnt change much right now, but I'm saying I would like this to be debated since it seems to be something that could cause some stir up in the future. I understand your disc/holy comparison but I don't think it illustrates very much what Im getting at. Since I said on my posts it isnt mandatory o.0.

What I did say it was something too good to maybe pass? I mean, I can do all the content even on my own, with some groups from time to time, but doesnt it worry anyone that you can actually go "I wish there was a guardian here to help this out"? Even more if we expect (and we DO) the content to scale very well with difficulty. And even before people tell me "Yep, but thats right exactly what it means to be a guardian." is really missing my point.

I love the theme and their charm, how they do their support and stuff. But I dont think I'm being too crazy to suggest a discussion about the balance WITHIN the own class.

I do realize I would wish another heavy support class would come , which does make it sound like I just want the guardian erased but thats not even the point.

What I would like to see more is choices within the guardian, more balanced ones. So far (see more further in the post) you are telling me they are awesome support, CAN do good damage, awesome at own survival, and still good at controlling the battle. And that can be reached (I did it myself, as alot other did I'm sure) without any MUCH MUCH effort you speak of.

So why not keep more distributed features/powers for different weapons. I know they do already at some extent but they also retain alot of the other features/powers.

You seem not to realize I dont mind them being the supportive ultimate thing, its pretty much IN THE NAME already. And Others classes can and will be supportive (and some even as much, being the elementalist the most quoted), but they all lose something to gain that power. (and if anyone comes saying that the 4 elements of the elementalist provides them alot of the features/powers, its at least a lil bit too much, since if you keep going from AoE, Damage, Support, Heal all the time you are probably doing it wrong, not to mention we dont swap weapons)

And if anyone tried right now to say I just contradicted myself by saying if you are doing it all, you are doing it wrong, you are wrong. (Unless im missing something lol )
Simply because the guardian skills always have some sort of double 2 way skills, that mostly allows them to control/support/heal/damage at the same time! While if you are the elementalist if you keep swaping the elements you will find yourself not only doing nothing but also trapped in one of the elements (that may not be the best at the time).

Well, that was long sorry hehe. But I dont want to be a enforcer of my view, you are entitled to yours and I respect, maybe I'm just not seeing eye to eye with you.

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at zeelic

Yes, thanks for you feedback .
As I said I dont think they are mandatory, but I think they will be the sweetest deal for the easiest way to go thru some parts for sure.

One of the things I was surprised in the last beta weekend is that on pvp I was doing very well on the sPvp, killing a good bunch and stuff, and on the zone chat one random guardian said "My build is immortal" and I challenged him to a duel (into a empty server bg). Took me a good bunch of times (minutes) to kill him, was an epic duel for sure, but Ill tell it right now, he healed himself to a annoying extent, he controlled me well, he had good boons for a bunch of times and even almost got me once or twice. I wasnt sure if I was indeed going to kill him, but I was almost sure I wouldnt die.

Ill stick my neck out here and say, I dont think the guy was a good player, I think he was an average upperish kind. And sticking my neck again, I consider myself at least good.

Another proof is that: After I killed him once and he asked for a rematch and we stated a THIEF :O joined my team and even tho I tried to stop him to continue the duel after a few seconds we found ourselves TRYING to kill the guardian AGAIN. It did take less, but I would be lying if I say I was really surprised he survived a GOOD bunch.

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at edgecrusherO0

Its fine, the reason I wanted to keep out of here is so guardians lover doesnt misread what I say thinking im a guardian hater, which is far from the case, we will see .

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at Drakewurrum

Just to give you some thought, altho you can grasp that with my full answer above.

I think Anet is doing a good job with the whole Holy Trinity going Down. And my mains are Mesmer and Elementalist, so I know the build you just posted.

But I think they all lack of something that the guardian so far isnt. As a melee support elementalist I think its prob one of the most awesome concepts ever (I always kind wanted Wow to get rid of one of the mage specs and put a kinda of melee mage on it), but to be honest it is cool and all but not my style. I personally like the control of the Scepter/Dagger provides specially in the Air At. I damage slowly controlling the oponent, it does take me some time to get the kill but I think its a smart play.

Anyway sorry I went offtopic here haha, continuing:
As the build posted above as the melee support offensive elementalist, you would think (and as I tested it is) you drop like paper (even with the defensive utility).

Now tell me what the guardian prospects builds are balancing by itself? Is is lacking something? Should It lack something?

Thats my point


---

Thanks if anyone read this haha, I hope its clear enough.

PS: whenever I use (Shift+2 "Your name here") it says:

The following errors occurred with your submission
You are not allowed to post any kinds of links, images or videos until you post a few times.

Im not sure why since Im not posting them o.0, so I just took those off.

[DrakeWurrum]

but doesnt it worry anyone that you can actually go "I wish there was a guardian here to help this out"?

I haven't only thought that about Guardians, though.

There are times where I thought "Damn I wish I had a Staff Elementalist here to drop down healing rains."
I've also thought "Man, if only there was an Engineer here with a Med Kit or Elixir Gun, or even just a Healing Turret."
I've even found myself thinking "Crap, if only there was a Mace Warrior here to stun that guy for me."

[Zilong]

Or you could have the guardian and pretty much have the healing, boons, and some control with stuns. Hell Ill even throw some damage to help you more than a lil xD.

While I think you are not entirely incorrect, you misinterpreted what I meant by that.

I didnt mean just about the heals, every class has its own heal and something more. I said that cause a guardian would easily do what you were thinking AND more.

Edit:
Hammer warrios can control very well with their stuff, while providing some goodie damage, but thats about it, plus you are slow.
Mace is defensive, and have 1 daze, and if you dual mace you have a knock. But really thats about it. Which would be good too, but you would lack mobility, burst and even damage.
I keep going for the situation here (I love warriors lol)

The point is, again:
A guardian in there would pretty much handle alot of what you asked in a single build. Making them VERY versatile while most of the other classes be whatever support kind they provide, situational. And they provide it in probably the best way so far seen.

[DrakeWurrum]

Or you could have the guardian and pretty much have the healing, boons, and some control with stuns.

Other professions bring fancy stuff like that as well. A Staff Elementalist in Water attunement can heal you, can snare enemies, can apply conditions and boons (might even be traited for MORE), and then would be able to switch to Fire attunement for massive aoe damage when you get overwhelmed. Or switch to Air attunement when you need whatever utility is there, etc etc.

Guardians can do what I'm describing and more, but so can other professions. Other professions can do things Guardians cannot.

[Zilong]

Yeah, they all have SOMETHING fancy to bring, but then we do enter what I said previously.

As a elementalist I would be VERY cautious to go for the fire att to burst aoe damage, cause i know the moment someone gets to me Ill be in trouble. And Staff elemen in Water Att is only a small segment of the Elementalist class. Which I heard can keep a good uptime healing (but not the rest). And yet you are cautions because you know your weaknesses. And switching att is something not to be taken lightly, its situational as well, for the wrong move you are dead.

As guardian goes, Im already hard to kill without much effort, providing all things we already stated above (that no one seems to be denying so far) I dont ever remember seeing them being afraid, in fact they should change the class name to Warlord or something haha, because they usually take 2-3 enemies laughing, while me on my mesmer or even ele (pve or pvp wise) had to think hard before engaging a combat.

You seem to be battling me where we agreed. Every class has a lil something (and more) for us all to enjoy, but we do have our weakness. Am I missing something like, guardians are known for being bad against magical damage or something? Im using comparasions in a healthy way to portrait how they could tweak the guardians to a more interesting manner, for me INCLUDED. I aint posting this as a elementalist, or any other class for that matter Im posting this as someone who wants to enjoy that class even more.

[DrakeWurrum]

As a elementalist I would be VERY cautious to go for the fire att to burst aoe damage, cause i know the moment someone gets to me Ill be in trouble.

Not really. You can always switch to Earth attunement right away, if you switched to Fire from Water. You also have your utilities. And I believe Fire attunement has either some mobility improvement or some zone control, I forget which... maybe even both. Oh right, it has Meteor Shower.
And then let's not forget what traits you may have access to. I believe one of the minors means attackers are afflicted with Burning!

[Zilong]

I admit I had to look that up . In my case I think the earth didnt really help me much to survive even more because it my least favored att and I didnt spend much points in it. I did use for OMFG times for some knock down but I preffered to train myself always to a good distance.

Fire does have a 20% chance to inflict burning which is alright, because if you have some burts you can kill him before it kill you, but if hes already there, a burning its the least of your problems. As I see fire is for some nasty aoe damage, that I only got to use when I had some backup, but for some reason people always though that always zerging wins XD, so I usually found myself alone.

But I see your point and I appreciate the feedback , I would like to hear more from others guardians and no-guardians like that guy a while ago. I do still believe they need some fine tuning to the balance inside the class itself.

[DrakeWurrum]

I do think Guardians will be highly-desired. Don't get me wrong about that. When people think "Support" Guardian will probably be the next word on their lips. But that's not to say other professions don't bring good support as well, or that damage/control will be undesirable when you're having trouble with a fight.

[AnnoDomini]

Edit:
Hammer warrios can control very well with their stuff, while providing some goodie damage, but thats about it, plus you are slow.
Mace is defensive, and have 1 daze, and if you dual mace you have a knock. But really thats about it. Which would be good too, but you would lack mobility, burst and even damage.

Hammer warriors can provide great support actually through traits. They can trait to make their shouts heal via the Tactics line (health and buff duration increased), and the Defense line helps hammers, maces, and healing. Healing is just a nice addition to their already strong shouts (IMO).

Anyway, as far as Guardians go I do think you guys are right that they will offer support, but definantly don't knock a warriors support abilties because they are an all around solid class any way you want to build them. I like the Guardian shouts as well, and that is prolly how I will build mine as my alt. It's hard to figure out if I want to trait my Guardian to give healing over time to people around me via Battle Presence or if I want to remove their condtions and turn them into boons via Pure of Voice.

[WALSRU]

If I were to build a Taric, I'm fairly partial to [build], even though I don't actually grab traits for the shouts. I'll have to see how good/bad symbols actually are. It's honestly difficult for me to resist grabbing Pure of Voice, because I love the idea of not only cleansing off conditions, but converting them into boons.

Thanks for offering the build, it gives me a good visual aid in synergy with traits.

My favorite tanks in LoL are these (in order): Nautilus, Shen, Volibear, Alistar. Just to give you an idea of my typical playstyle.

/slightly off topic

Retreat and Hold the Line definitely look toying around with, Stand Your Ground doesn't hold much interest for me. Visually I think the shields and walls are the most distinct part of the guardian, and if I can't throw a little flash out there I'm worried I'll lose interest. Mesmer is flashy as all get out, but I found them lacking outside of 1v1. Personally I found the Mace to lack feel compared to other weapons, it has the utility but it wasn't particularly gratifying.

[AnnoDomini]

Retreat and Hold the Line definitely look toying around with, Stand Your Ground doesn't hold much interest for me.

Retreat needs a rename to Charge or something more adequate. Hold the Line looks like the most fun, Stand your Ground has potential in sPvP.
I agree that I hope Guardian gets abit more visceral or a little more flashy, it's feel is abit off atm but I think it will get better.

[DrakeWurrum]

Hammer warriors can provide great support actually through traits. They can trait to make their shouts heal via the Tactics line (health and buff duration increased), and the Defense line helps hammers, maces, and healing. Healing is just a nice addition to their already strong shouts (IMO).

Don't forget Banners.

Thanks for offering the build, it gives me a good visual aid in synergy with traits.

My favorite tanks in LoL are these (in order): Nautilus, Shen, Volibear, Alistar. Just to give you an idea of my typical playstyle.

/slightly off topic

Retreat and Hold the Line definitely look toying around with, Stand Your Ground doesn't hold much interest for me. Visually I think the shields and walls are the most distinct part of the guardian, and if I can't throw a little flash out there I'm worried I'll lose interest. Mesmer is flashy as all get out, but I found them lacking outside of 1v1. Personally I found the Mace to lack feel compared to other weapons, it has the utility but it wasn't particularly gratifying.

When I tank, I'm a beast. Literally. NOM NOM NOM NOM NOM!
However, I am still refined enough to wear a top hat.

But yes, on-topic, I can understand where you're coming from, especially since shouts aren't even unique to Guardians. I do like that using a shout actually causes me to audibly shout the phrase that it's named after (all the more reason for me to dislike that it's "Retreat!" and not "Charge!" considering that the audible phrase will cause allied players to actually react by retreating), but the flashy spells are also rather satisfying.

I personally prefer the meditations over the other Guardian spells, especially because they're still fairly short CD. Contemplation of Purity is probably my favorite one - really useful to turn the tide against a Mesmer or Necromancer. I completely refuse to use Sanctuary just because it's such a long CD for a utility spell.

I also really love the Spirit Weapons, though, and fully intend to use a triple-weapon build for my primary playstyle. It'll be a bit of a glass cannon and not have nearly as much utility as other builds, but it should be a hell of a lot of fun. I only wish there was a Spirit Weapon elite. (I think what could be a cool Elite Spirit Weapon skill would be controlling multiple spears at once )



---------- Post added 2012-06-26 at 08:14 PM ----------

Stand your Ground has potential in sPvP.

Don't fool yourself - PvE mobs apply movement impairing effects as well. PvE combat is seriously no different from PvP in GW2, with the exception that your opponent is run by an AI. They often have all the same tools.

[Exedore]

@Zilong

The three main points that I gathered from what you said are:
1. Guardians are much better in a support role than other professions
2. Guardians have really good survivability, perhaps too good. This had an sPvP focus.
3. A party may feel obligated to have a guardian for their strong support.

I disagree with all three. A huge factor is the fact that the game is still new and is a dramatic departure from what most players are familiar. Players are familiar with the MMO trinity (heal, tank, DPS) and guardian is the closest to healer when you take a quick look at all the professions. Players that haven't broken out of that mold feel that they need a guardian just because. In BWE2, elementalist seemed to be the most desired profession because of their AoE damage capability in both dungeons and WvW. Once players explore the professions deeper and realize what each can do, you'll see the professions branch out into "non-standard" roles. For example, you have shout and banner warriors that can do support. You can set up a guardian for damage or control as well. But doing those things isn't as straight-forward as damage on a warrior or support on a guardian.

That covers 1 and 3. For 2, I also think this is perception of the player base in a beginner state. Even though you may be "good", you're still not good at GW2 because it's just so different, and there's no way for you to have learned it all from 2 BWE's and a couple stress tests. You're just good relative to the average player that also hasn't learned much. Given that state of the player base, a profession with some built-in defense mechanisms like the guardian is far more forgiving. Even if you're terrible at dodging properly, Aegis still helps mitigate some big hits, especially when opponents haven't adjusted to using throw-away damage to pop the Aegis. Compare that to a warrior that has to use mobility, snares/roots, and dodging to stay alive. In addition, the guardian elite Tome of Courage with it's full heal dramatically influences perception.

---------- Post added 2012-06-27 at 12:29 AM ----------

I spent most of the first 2 BWE playing Mesmer PvP which was the most fun I had 1v1. However I really want to roll a more support oriented character for teamfights and just general tankiness. My goal is to be very Stun and Heal heavy, being able to both keep my team alive and be able to soft taunt the other team by just being a general pain with hard CC. As I didn't get to lvl Guardian past 12 in PvE and played very little with it in PvP I'd like a little feedback on traits and utility skills:

http://www.gw2tools.com/skills#g;afp...Xaa;bade;YRjQY

I can't find the skill that does damage when trying to pass through my wards. I thought that would synergize well with my hammer, shield bubbles, and sanctuary. Maybe that was on a different build site.

Anyway, sorry for the format. Let me know if this would be at all effective in PvP. I've really enjoyed reading this thread!

Is this for sPvP or WvW? I'm assuming it's sPvP.

Your build just doesn't seem very focused. It tries to be offensive with mobility and at the same time go with area defense. Judge's intervention is very offensive, so I would just drop that. Pick up a better support ability instead. I never really liked Merciful Intervention because of the high cooldown and the fact that it's not instant unless you trait for it, but maybe it works for you.

Another thing that I've seen from other guardian videos and personal experience is that there is usually a primary weapon set and the other weapon set is usually for the start of an engagement. You use all the cooldowns on the one weapon set and then swap to the primary for a while. For that reason, I would advise against trying to trait for both weapon sets. I think hammer would work better as the primary weapon for the play style you seem to be leaning towards, which is more control than direct support. Perhaps scepter/shield as a secondary since both work at keeping opponents away. I usually see sword used as a primary weapon for general damage dealing.

[Zilong]

First of all, I would like to know why people (No, not you exedore xD) like to quote what I say (or anyones for that matter), right where it benefits them the most but disregarding the point made. Is it that hard to read everything and just go from there? Its kinda like saying "I dislike burritos but I love rice". and just quote the I love rice part, forgetting that it was about burritos the whole time. (Wow, I dont even know how I did that example, but you know what I mean). But anyways....

Exedore

1. I dont care if they have or do not have the best support role than other profession. Quite frankly I would expect so by the name, and I know other professions (by experience) can do just as well, so thats not the point.

2. They do have really good survival (no one can deny that), and I think its just fine. So this is not the issue either

3. No party will feel obligated (I hope ) to have the guardian for their strong support as other can enter just as well in that way. Its not mandatory, Ive said that before, and will say that again. But I will say I would like another class that could go in a pair with the guardians. (Of course dif themes and all).

I disagree with you telling me that I (or players in general) havent broken out of the old model for mmos specially. I never even touched the trinity subject just because I dont even think its in place. I never even thought guardian was the healer, even more "just because". I do realize that alot of people do that, but Im not one of them. I feel like all classes have the great design to perform however you feel like its fun. Meele/Ranged, Support, Control(I always felt like control is a kind of support, I would go as far as just say Damage and Support to be honest), Damage. And I feel like gw2 is a game where every class has something for everyone, its just a matter of error/trial with the weapons/combos/traits. I'm pretty sure something WILL grab someones attention inside a class, and the only thing stopping them is pretty much the themes (I particularly dislike the Engineer theme being a old school medieval. But I played them and it was a blast, very tatical and inteligent.) And even tho elementalist were desired for the AoE capability, I completly agree with you people will come to realize that all classes has their own ways .

So far I think on that matter we agree !

On the second part of your post we seem to grow apart :__(


First of all, I think im a good gamer, I try to not be biased and think before everything else. Im not a theorycrafter, nor I have learned everything there is about guild wars 2 for sure. Now I have a couple of question I would like to raise.

Would you think that every class has its own weakness?
If so, what are the ones for say thief? or Elementarists?
Im pretty sure you can come up with a couple.
Now what is the guardian ones?

And one thing else:
You have to agree with me, its in your post.
You say everyone can support (banner/shout wars) which is a solid build. But seeing that guardians are more forgiving, why do they seem to regardless of your build, still Support, Control and Damage? While others must forfeit something in order to achieve a deeper game plan? I'm not even saying they are Overpowered, I'm just saying, what is the weak spot of the whole combination of the guardian? Plus the forgiving factor?

You tell me average players (and I know this for a fact) tend to be hard to die because they are forgiving when playing a guardian, but should that really be happening? So, everyone else must learn the guardian to a deeper extent to exploit it to FIND a weakness? That doesnt sound very balanced, cause this surpasses the idea where everyone seems to think Im mad cause "OMG guardians do sooo good support". Maybe they should tune the forgiviness down a little? Thats all Im actually discussing here . If people go for the guardian for the support, awesome, and its even okay if they have a good control/stunish/okay damage for everything else they do, heals/boons, but at least make it be a lil less passive, or start getting some of it out.

From experience when I played the guardian I felt like I was superman lol, I would mob thru pve and rush against 2 or more on pvp. While I felt good about it, and fun, I think a little less here could actually feel like more .

I apologize for my english again, and to be honest I dont think this post was very clear XD but thats the best I can do right now hahaha.

[Deleted]

people could miss a guardian when they dont play how they should i think.

i played my guardian in wvw and the battlegrounds but also in a bunch of pve events and the most people just forget to dodge attacks or that they can cast while moving so i saved there asses often ^^.

line of warding, the speed rune, shield and healing spells where needed because the most people just stand there and waited for the big charr fist to hit there faces.

so i think people like this will miss a guardian because he can stop the big evil charr fist but everybody else who knows how to move will be happy with every ally they can get.

[WALSRU]

Is this for sPvP or WvW? I'm assuming it's sPvP.

Your build just doesn't seem very focused. It tries to be offensive with mobility and at the same time go with area defense. Judge's intervention is very offensive, so I would just drop that. Pick up a better support ability instead. I never really liked Merciful Intervention because of the high cooldown and the fact that it's not instant unless you trait for it, but maybe it works for you.

Another thing that I've seen from other guardian videos and personal experience is that there is usually a primary weapon set and the other weapon set is usually for the start of an engagement. You use all the cooldowns on the one weapon set and then swap to the primary for a while. For that reason, I would advise against trying to trait for both weapon sets. I think hammer would work better as the primary weapon for the play style you seem to be leaning towards, which is more control than direct support. Perhaps scepter/shield as a secondary since both work at keeping opponents away. I usually see sword used as a primary weapon for general damage dealing.

You definitely hit the nail on the head there, I'm pretty unfocused on this point on which traits work with which weapons. And yeah it's sPvP. I haven't even tried the scepter yet so that might be an option. That does sound good for standing on a point and poking. I'll try and rework/drop some of what I put into valor.

URL's still don't work. Taking your point on cooldowns and being more focused, I switched my utilities to Wall of Reflection, Purging Flames, and Merciful Intervention (like it too much :P). I also picked up my valor tree to give Focused Mind for Instant Meditation, and removed my Radiance points for Honor. Taking Battle Presence to give my team more survivability. That seems a like it has a little more synergy with my goal.