I'll guard you. Let them come through ME first! - Guardian discussion thread.

[Ynna]

@Zilong :
I know that at this point you probably think I'm a biased Guardian lover, but really, I'm not. If you look through this thread, you'll notice that I've mostly been calm and level-headed and that I back up what I say with personal experience. You'll also find the builds I tested, and what were their weaknesses. And yes, their were plenty of weaknesses.
I'm curious what build you used that did great damage, awesome control and good support, because I personally haven't seen anything like that.

I do believe that Guardians are probably the easiest profession to play "okay". They're pretty hard to do really well, but you'll do "okay" with them no matter what. A bit like the Soldier or the Pyro in Team Fortress 2. Easy to learn, but really hard to master.

Your build just doesn't seem very focused. It tries to be offensive with mobility and at the same time go with area defense. Judge's intervention is very offensive, so I would just drop that. Pick up a better support ability instead. I never really liked Merciful Intervention because of the high cooldown and the fact that it's not instant unless you trait for it, but maybe it works for you.

I've personally liked Judge's Intervention in my defensive build, because mobility was the biggest issue I had with those builds.

[zeelic]

I am looking at a build and wanted to get some input on how well it "could" run. It is 30/0/20/20/0 Taking major traits in Zeal: Fiery wraith/Greatsword Power/Zealous Blade.
Major traits in Valor: Purity/Retrituvie armor and major traits in honor: Resolute healer/Two-handed mastery. Weapon sets Greatsword/ sceptor & Focus. IN SPvP I would be using the amulet that gives 284 to all stats and +15% crit damage, I belive it's called celestrails amulet and also superior rune of divinity +10 to all stats(6) and + 3% crit damage(6). Power is roughly 1800, crit is 40%, health is 18k, 625 defense 2777+ armor and +68 crit damage. Skills 6-0 are: Healing breeze, Sanctuary, Bane signet, signet of judgement, Renewed focus. Any thoughts would help out alot.

[WALSRU]

/watch?v=icmxnwPGWXQ

(not allowed to post links still)

Found a vid of a guardian running Sword/Shield and Hammer

[Exedore]

@Zilong

I wasn't saying you're still in the MMO trinity mindset. However, I've seen a lot of players that still haven't broken away completely, and when other people look for the class, it makes it seem more necessary, even if that's not personal experience.

On your question of a guardian's weakness:
- Not very strong at ranged combat.
- Not a large burst component to their damage. It's mostly sustained.
- Doesn't benefit a lot from Malice (increases condition damage) or Expertise (increases condition duration).
- Very few offensive boons.

On your statement that guardian can damage, support, and control all in one and do it well:
From sPvP experience, I really disagree. I've seen builds with damage and survivability, but it wasn't really group survivability. I've also seen great support builds, but they did laughable damage. Going to agree with Ynna on this point.

I've personally liked Judge's Intervention in my defensive build, because mobility was the biggest issue I had with those builds.

I've found Judge's Intervention to not be all that good in most builds. Sure, it does a great job at closing the gap. But then what? Usually they just dodge away. I'm leaning more toward using Signet of Wrath (activate: immobilize target) since it allows you to close a gap and prevents dodging. Though I've use greatsword in practically every build, so the leap ability serves as a gap closer for me.

Found a vid of a guardian running Sword/Shield and Hammer

Saw a video like that from tournament level PvP. If it's the one you're referring to, you'll notice that he was sitting on a control point the whole time. It wasn't really supportive of a group so much as just very defensive of an area.

[Dundebuns]

I've not had the pleasure of participating in the beta weekends, but how viable for pve and pvp is a support centric guardian looking?

[DrakeWurrum]

I've found Judge's Intervention to not be all that good in most builds. Sure, it does a great job at closing the gap. But then what? Usually they just dodge away. I'm leaning more toward using Signet of Wrath (activate: immobilize target) since it allows you to close a gap and prevents dodging. Though I've use greatsword in practically every build, so the leap ability serves as a gap closer for me.

Greatsword #5 also is able to pull enemies directly to you, don't forget that. Basically a two-stage scorpion wire. Although the wiki doesn't currently list the second skill in the chain yet, the way it doesn't for Impale.

The way I see it, Judge's Intervention is a perfectly fine gap closer, it just doesn't also control the enemy. If I was using Mace/Shield + Hammer, I'd want to use JI combined with the Hammer #5. Then I've closed the gap AND prevented them from escaping.

I still think Stand Your Ground! is one of the better shouts Guardians have access to, just because it fully prevents enemies from kiting you AND your allies for a full 6 seconds.

Random note: I'm finding I dislike that Sanctuary has a 120 second CD. It's the only utility skill I can think of that doesn't rez, but has a triple-digit CD. Is it really so powerful that it needs to have that long of a CD? O_o

[Ynna]

I've found Judge's Intervention to not be all that good in most builds. Sure, it does a great job at closing the gap. But then what? Usually they just dodge away. I'm leaning more toward using Signet of Wrath (activate: immobilize target) since it allows you to close a gap and prevents dodging. Though I've use greatsword in practically every build, so the leap ability serves as a gap closer for me.

My defensive builds never had gap-closers on the weapons, so Judge's Intervention covers up a pretty big weakness. My main use was getting onto points with it, then knocking them off with my shield. It's a pretty good mobility skill, which is why I took it.

I've not had the pleasure of participating in the beta weekends, but how viable for pve and pvp is a support centric guardian looking?

In PvE, you're probably good.
In world PvP, it's pretty much the only meaningful thing you can do when assaulting a keep, and it makes you pretty useful for the other things, provided you can stay with a group.
In structured PvP, I wouldn't advice running a strictly Support build. It's kinda okay as long as you have (at least) one ally with you, but you become completely useless on your own. If you want to be supportive, you should pick a build that does that and something else. You have a couple of good Support/Offensive or Support/Defensive builds available.

Random note: I'm finding I dislike that Sanctuary has a 120 second CD. It's the only utility skill I can think of that doesn't rez, but has a triple-digit CD. Is it really so powerful that it needs to have that long of a CD? O_o

Yeah, it's a decent skill, but the cooldown is too long. I liked it better as an elite.

[Deleted]

As long as i'm able to do something interesting, make and impact on the game and help my team members; it will be all rosie.

[WALSRU]

My defensive builds never had gap-closers on the weapons, so Judge's Intervention covers up a pretty big weakness. My main use was getting onto points with it, then knocking them off with my shield. It's a pretty good mobility skill, which is why I took it.

In structured PvP, I wouldn't advice running a strictly Support build. It's kinda okay as long as you have (at least) one ally with you, but you become completely useless on your own. If you want to be supportive, you should pick a build that does that and something else. You have a couple of good Support/Offensive or Support/Defensive builds available.

Thanks a lot for this post, this really helps me with my thought process. I really don't want to put all my eggs in one basket and then be worthless outside of that specific situation. I know defense is my first priority, but I'm going to do some soul searching next BWE to see if I prefer meshing it with support (staff, scepter, mace) or Offense (hammer, sword).

What's everyone's opinion on Purging flame? Does it make sense to take it with/without burning traits (removing boons, 10% damage)?

[DrakeWurrum]

I don't like it because it's a consecration, but if you want to support allies and give a bit of zone control, it could be useful.


Worth noting: Judge's Intervention is a stun breaker. This does make it a smarter choice in my earlier build than Stand Your Ground!, but it's worth noting that, apparently, Hold the Line! is also a stun breaker. O_o
Now that I look at that build, by the by, Retributive Armor may be a smart trait choice, simply because of Vigorous Protection. Depends on how much crit that actually gives when you tally up Toughness from your gear.

[WALSRU]

Very nice, I really like that build more by replacing Hold the Line with even Purging flames gives zone control and an aoe cleanse. Sounds like an awesome support/defense build I'll have to try depending on team comp. That's just my taste though.

I wonder how the Asuras will sound when shouting, could be hilarious.

[DrakeWurrum]

I wonder how the Asuras will sound when shouting, could be hilarious.

I keep thinking of Veigar, Teemo, and Kennen emotes, but I've noticed that most Asura don't actually have high-pitched voices.

---------- Post added 2012-06-27 at 11:28 AM ----------

Very nice, I really like that build more by replacing Hold the Line with even Purging flames gives zone control and an aoe cleanse. Sounds like an awesome support/defense build I'll have to try depending on team comp. That's just my taste though.

I think if you replaced any of the shouts, as much as I like Stability, you'd want to replace Stand Your Ground! instead. Simply because Protection and Regeneration applied to a whole team is incredibly powerful. (Note: you can apply it even when you're CCed by the enemy, which makes it doubly powerful)

[WALSRU]

My bad I said the wrong one, you're completely right.

Too bad I can't post links I've got the build bug now too. Working on focusing up my offensive blind/burning build with the instant mediation perk. I finally went to the wiki and figured out what skills fall under consecration and meditation. Are their any decent signet builds? Seems like you'd lose a lot with them on cooldown.

[DrakeWurrum]

Too bad I can't post links I've got the build bug now too.

Don't have to tell me twice. I'm impatiently waiting for that tool to update before I get to work on revising builds OR making new ones.

[WALSRU]

^ you have given me mucho reading

[DrakeWurrum]

^ you have given me mucho reading

Worth noting - that tool currently has the wrong secondary attributes for certain trait lines.

Example: Zeal is now Power and Expertise, not Power and Concentration.

---------- Post added 2012-06-27 at 04:52 PM ----------

Worth noting: Sword of Justice has a 30 second CD and a 30 second duration. The command ability has a 10 second CD.

There's two traits affecting this uptime. One that reduces spirit weapon recharge by 20%. Another that increases duration by 50%.
Hammer of Wisdom has a 45 second CD and a 20 second duration. Both of those traits combined only change that to be 30 second duration and 36 second CD.

Edit: Turns out the cooldown does not start until the weapon duration ends, or it's destroyed.

[grandpab]

Did some pvp for a little bit...Shit made me so mad...Between all the cripples people were putting on me, and the abilities that lock you in place, I just wasn't able to hit people more than once or twice after jumping/teleporting to them.

[DrakeWurrum]

Did some pvp for a little bit...Shit made me so mad...Between all the cripples people were putting on me, and the abilities that lock you in place, I just wasn't able to hit people more than once or twice after jumping/teleporting to them.

Smite Condition and Contemplation of Purity, combined with Meditation Mastery and Focused Mind, and maybe Monk's Focus.
You should also check out the Purity trait, and consider using Signet of Resolve.

I'm pretty sure that will be absolutely required for Guardian competitive PvP, if you receive THAT many conditions. In every PvP-oriented build I've imagined, I made sure to have tons of condition removal.

Alternatively, you could get Stand Your Ground! and focus on Shouts, but I think that's less useful (for you, at least - depends on how much you want to help allies).

[grandpab]

I had signet of resolve, Smite condition, and purging flames (was a build built for burning), but it just wasn't enough. I swapped one ability out for contemplation of purity, but still not enough.

I kept running in to this earth elementalist...He was the one that was pissing me off the most. Fighting him was just stupid and the way he could kite me and mitigate my damage made it a losing battle no matter how hard I tried.

[Deleted]

Did some pvp for a little bit...Shit made me so mad...Between all the cripples people were putting on me, and the abilities that lock you in place, I just wasn't able to hit people more than once or twice after jumping/teleporting to them.

"L2dodge! " - But really, it's about dodging and counter them with your abilities You'll learn in time, it's hard:P