New 5 man dungeons loot shouldn't be better than the previous raid tier content?

[Deleted]

Again one more time you misunderstand my way of thinking about this I will say it one more time I have nothing against casuals or anyone who get gears same lvl as I do either I get it from raid or they get it from 5 man heroics with the same item lvl. I don't treat them as unworthy just because they didn't experience the same thing I did this is just immature and childish way of thinking. I'm casual myself I'm not some kind of elitlist who get jealous of some players who get the same item lvl gears as me in 5 man heroics instead of raids that is not my point I will say it in caps so you can see it : I HAVE NOTHING AGAINST CASUAL PLAYERS BECAUSE I'M ONE OF THEM.... now that we are clear with that my point was to make old raids viable for longer period of time than just one patch content as it's now. By doing that the lifespan of the raid content will be longer and people will be busy progressing still even to this day instead of just clearing the latest raid content patch in less than 1 month then get bored of not enough content or raiding to do it's just a method to keep people busy while new patch inc but yeah this is just my opinion of this matter ofc I don't expect everyone agree with me.

To answer your question how would I get gears up my alt if this system get on? simple answer will be: craftable items, valor points and justice points epics will be more than enough to let me enter LFR and start farming because 5 man heroics still get you valor points so this is not a problem at all.

History (TBC, WotLK) showed Blizzard that it's simply not a good idea to have the player-base spread out over several Tiers; the more the player-base is spread out, the harder it is to get groups fo everyone.

OP, you sound sincere when you claim you want to respect casuals, but eventually they want to experience that current content as well, not at some point in the future, but NOW. In this day and age people do not want to take time to gear up first: they want to see and experience current content NOW! If not, they will leave.

Having people people progressing through raids means that t will take them longer to be in current raids, and eventually that WILL lead to elitism of those who are geared and it will put off those who feel belittled by it and they WILL leave. So Blizzard decided that 'current' content should be easily accessible by all who want to experience it now.

[Blackmist]

Who's going to be running dungeons now we'll have LFR for everything? Nobody's going to be running them outside the first few months of MoP. If questing gives you the right ilvl to hit the first tier of LFR, dungeons will be dead outside of challenge modes.

[Deleted]

Having a big pile of content you've already completed doesn't mean you have lots of stuff to do. It's identical to waiting for a new game and your parents telling you that you have a bunch of games you can play that you've already beaten multiple times.

THIS!! Great analogy.

[ComputerNerd]

Those not in need of the older tiers of content would simply not run them.
Therefore forcing new players / alts through them would penalise them for simply being new.
For older tiers of content to be viable to run through as a progression there has to be the demand.
Currently there is just not enough of that.

[Oerba Yun Fang]

My opinion? Don't fix what isn't broken.

[Otaka]

i liked this style in vanilla. Because back then you had 40 man raids, you could boost someones alt for epix in an older raid to be efficient in the newer ones.
It was better style, old raids didnt become obsolete because newer raiders would raid them.
Now its like if someone dings 85 and starts raid, he raids DS and never touches the older ones = wasted content.

It was same in tbc. I liked this because the content never became completely obsolete. Now its just a waste of boss mechanics and amazing raid dungeons.
But what can i do about it? nothing!

[Pull My Finger]

It's a complete nonsensical idea, and obviously so.

Raiding isn't meant to be the only source of character progression through gear - only the best one. And that's exactly the way it should be.

[Otaka]

Those not in need of the older tiers of content would simply not run them.
Therefore forcing new players / alts through them would penalise them for simply being new.
For older tiers of content to be viable to run through as a progression there has to be the demand.
Currently there is just not enough of that.

There is no demand because there is no reason to do them... remember vanilla/tbc? there were lots of guilds on different stages. Some where raiding aq40 already, and some in molten core. You could easily get a guild that raided MC and then start raiding.

There IS no demand because the gear sux compared to new 5 mans. If it still was usable gear there would be demand.
Because that was the way the progression used to work.

[Nashud]

History (TBC, WotLK) showed Blizzard that it's simply not a good idea to have the player-base spread out over several Tiers; the more the player-base is spread out, the harder it is to get groups fo everyone.

totally agree!

They allow you to gear up in dungeons so you can do end game raids
The first time they changed this was in TBC and Badge of Justice gear and MGT dungeon in Isle of Quel'Danas (and ofc the shatterd sun offensive rep gear). At that time ppl raided in sunwell (t6.5) and with running hcs ppl could gear up and prepare for the raid. (badge of justice gear was close but not quite good as tier 6).
This happened again in WOTLK (ICC 5mans) and in CATA (HoT 5mans). And it will happen in the future.

[Deleted]

Can you compare Magisters' Terrace with an actual dungeon ?.... Do you really think that Magisters' Terrace was free loot ?

That was one of a multitude of reasons why very few people got to see the Sunwell raid (when it was current tier).

[theburned]

I'm in favor of a ladder based tier system. It just sucks not being able to progress at your own pace. Hate that we never get to take down the last few HC bosses, before Blizzard judge that it's time for a new raid tier, which everybody has to do.

But I do think that in such a ladder based tier system, that the percentage of loot dropped from the bosses in older raids should be increased, in order to avoid guilds having to spend too much time gearing up in the older content, everytime a new member joins them.

That way you still get to progress through the raids the way they were meant to be, without being forced to farm the older raids too much.

well with dragon soul you should be able to take everything down at least with the 30% nerf, and considering it is one of the easiest raids.

[Deleted]

Just let people get the gear, jeesh. Whats the problem.
Skill > Gear.
It helps players there good, to get in the raiding guild as they want.

[Deleted]

I'm mostly geared in heroic DS loot, still run old heroics regularly, wether it be helping guildies new alts gear up or just doing a quick heroic for VP. I'm so tired of HoTs, and since I don't need anything from there I just choose "cataclysm heroic".

[Deleted]

The 25's are dead because 10-man raids are much easier to set up and start with, and also to maintain in the long run.

[Grimbold21]

The way it is now provides a clear progression from old heroics, to current 5-man heroics, to LFR, to Normals. Design goal met.

If it weren't for the ilvl requirement, that should be like LFR - 5 man heroics - normal mode

[Deleted]

The 25's are dead because 10-man raids are much easier to set up and start with, and also to maintain in the long run.

25s aren't dead, endangered species... yes, but not dead! As long as there are people who, like I do, enjoy 25man more, we will never die!
Or unless blizzard decides otherwise...

[theburned]

25s aren't dead, endangered species... yes, but not dead! As long as there are people who, like I do, enjoy 25man more, we will never die!
Or unless blizzard decides otherwise...

they are still the only competitive ones, though casual 25 man guilds are quite endangered

[wombrage]

I think it would work out better if the newer 5 mans were roughly equal to the gear you get from the LFR from the previous tier. That way, there'd be some some of concurrent paths of progression.

Maybe vaguely something like:

Tier 1	Tier 2
5man (heroic)
LFR	5man (heroic)
normal raid	LFR
heroic raid	normal raid
	heroic raid

not necessarily equal in item level, but the items would be comparable, stats-wise.

also, i'm not sure how I feel about new patch 5mans dropping loot for every slot (e.g., HoT 5mans).

as another topic for discussion, how would everyone feel the 5mans added after launch came available in normal mode, as well as heroic?

[Maester]

IMO it's a good idea, but mounts/gimmicks/pets won't make the majority of players do the hard dungeons over the easy dungeons.

A solution to this would be to make the gear get higher in item level, but still not higher than the first raid tier.

So, for example, the first set of dungeons would give you gear of iLvL 420 and the first tier raid would give gear of iLvL 450. All new sets of dungeons will give gear below iLvL 450, but higher than iLvL 420.

Probably won't work, but could be possible.

[Boogieknight]

The 25's are dead because 10-man raids are much easier to set up and start with, and also to maintain in the long run.

25-man raiding isn't dead, it's dying. And it's dying because when you only have 1 lockout between the 2 raid sizes and identical gear drops it's just not worth it for some people to wrangle and distribute gear to 24 players instead of 9.