[MoP Balance] MoP Balance Discussion Thread

[shags the penguin]

I'm really not seeing much of a damage increase from multi dotting over single target nuking, how many targets do we need before we don't bother dotting / nuking and just hurricane/astral storm?

My first attempt at multi dotting went badly :P I think I matched my single target however i soon changed some stuff.
single target 42-44k
2 targets 46-48k
3 targets 55k
Above that with four I could not make it a dps increase

Eclipsed dot hits for about 67k
Starsurge hits for around 63k
Normal dot hits for about 53-54k
Unlimted targets stay in eclipse and spam dots with lunar shower about 40k

Effectively I have ignored times of old and I put dots down almost to 100% gain procs of starsurge and i rank starsurge above everything else the amount of procs I was getting at point allowed me to almost move a complete eclipse with only starsurge really need a way to tell if you are missing out on the damage procs like missing a hot streak type thing.

If you make sure to use as many starsurges as possible it makes it worth multi dotting since the dots no longer do the core of the damage.


As for aoe it could be one of many things:

Single target = normal
Two Targets = multi dot but hope you get lots of procs
Three targets = multi dot procs should really carry you in and out of eclipses quickly
four targets = Not sure cannot find a way to beat 3 currently
Five-eight = Using only the eclipsed dot and starsurge spam (won't give you much over 3 -4 targets as you only gain the difference of non-eclipsed to eclipsed dot)
Eight - ten = Say hurricane does 6k then you would need 10 targets to match your 3-4 target dps

< CA (67*2) *15 seconds about 2 million or 134k each global
In order for hurricane to beat that you would need about 20-24 targets with hurricane

All numbers were mostly taken from unbuffed dummies this will scale better but then so will all the spells, the extra crit in a fully buffed though will really help out 3-4 target dotting. Also this is very much guessing, nothing has been actually tested but hopefully it will give you an idea.

For deathwing will hurricane proc spellweave or am I going to be a very sad chicken ?


Also I don't rate soul I think armoured chicken will out do everything especially since haste is high but devalued because of all the starsurge procs over 50 million on 3 targets I nearly matched starsurge hits to wrath and starfire together.

[Deleted]

For deathwing will hurricane proc spellweave or am I going to be a very sad chicken ?

I'm wondering this to, i couldn't raid with my guild yesterday as my internet was down so didn't have the option to test.

[huth]

Darn, should have payed attention to that yesterday. But then the WLs killed of most of the P1 blood before the parasite spawned and in P2 i was more concerned with getting that goddamn blood dead because it's now slow immune.(Thanks a lot Blizz -v-)

[Juvencus]

These changes are coming soon or already are in live/beta just without tooltip updates (GC didn't specify the version of the game for each change) :

-- We increased the damage of Hurricane by 7.5%. Moonkin sustained AoE damage was too low, and we also wanted to emphasize Solar’s dominance over Lunar for AoE.
-- We reduced the damage increase to spells from Dream of Cenarius from 65% down to 50%.

[earthwormjim]

I'm really not seeing much of a damage increase from multi dotting over single target nuking, how many targets do we need before we don't bother dotting / nuking and just hurricane/astral storm?

You either are letting dots fall off or aren't target switching fast enough. I did 60k dps on heroic morchok in 25m, there's no way I could do that kind of dps if I was only doing single target.

Multi-dotting will always do more dps than single target (provided you get full durations on your dots). If it didn't that would mean our dots weren't even worth using single target.

[xtramuscle]

You either are letting dots fall off or aren't target switching fast enough. I did 60k dps on heroic morchok in 25m, there's no way I could do that kind of dps if I was only doing single target.

Multi-dotting will always do more dps than single target (provided you get full durations on your dots). If it didn't that would mean our dots weren't even worth using single target.

Yeah did an actual raid last night, and it wasn't nearly as bad as I thought it was.

Also ended up taking Incarnation, it seems in sustained dps it was only 1k or so lower than Soul of the Forest, but allowed for MUCH more burst during aoe phases and such, which yielded higher overall damage, for me atleast.

[Lilija]

hey guys, your now not last on latest sims! combat rogues are! wooot!

I have doubts about simc accuracy atm. I was checking for my current gear and level and it showed few ks less than I was able to do on a dummy.

[Deleted]

Morchok dmg is insane now for Boomkins (im Hozu), as for single target i went from 44k>54k on Ultraxion.

Also 51% uptime on Starfall and 82% uptime on NG at Ultraxion with Incarnation as a talent. Fight lasted 3min:22. had CA up last 4 seconds or so.

Morchok: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...e/?s=458&e=591

Ultraxion: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=3094&e=3297

[xtramuscle]

Morchok dmg is insane now for Boomkins (im Hozu), as for single target i went from 44k>54k on Ultraxion.

Noticed similar in 10man last night, although they moved morchok and his mate too far apart so couldn't multi dot the entire fight :'(

Looking forward to the MOP raids !!

[Juvencus]

I run a sim today and I got : Int > SP > Haste = Crit > Mastery

Intel: 1
SpellP: 0.77
Crit: 0.64
Haste: 0.64
Mastery: 0.55

I didn't run hit as we take hit cap for granded.

I'm like wtf now....

With incarnation, lvl 85 live version

[Deleted]

Running simcraft at 50.000 iterations now, 6 houres and counting atm lawlz. I'll post results when its done, curious to see if i get same results as you juvencus.

Btw dps in heroic fucking amazing! Our ret paladin hates me now

[Deleted]

Hi, i'm watching mmo champions long time ago, and the moonkin forum too, i don't know if i should create a new thread or not...so i will try here.
I'm a bit lost for 5.0.4 and specially for MOP...For one targer, there's no problem...but when it comes to AOE, i'm lost. Before it was quickly easy, be in solar, shroom on cooldown, SF on every target, if there's time enough IS, again shroom, etc.
But now it seems there are different AoE Strategies, i think it's still better to be in solar, or maybe now that we switch eclipse so fast it didn't matter...So how to AoE ? Put first the eclipse dot on every one, starsurge if procs, still use shroom's ? Or just Eclipse dot, starsurge on procs, un-eclipsed dot, refresh eclipse dot etc ? And how to start an aoe fight ?

I will take some examples : Yor'sahj => At pull i do as said, starfall, one wrath to lunar, INC, put both dot's, starsurge, starfire, starfall, when going out, CA, MF, Starfall, etc etc. But when it comes to black phase, try to be in solar, put shroom when they are about to pop, use shrooms when they are packed and then hurricane ?

Use Shroom and Hurricane for aoeing low life adds that spawn massivly like Yor'sahj or the little spawn add on Tsulong in the Day phase ? Or no, better, Maloriak, i think we don't really have a "burst aoe" like we had with the shroom before 5.0 ? Green phase be in solar, shrooms, and hurricane.

But how to fights like The Stone Guards, do i still do the same open rotation as said ? ( One cast from lunar ), Do the same rotation, but when hitting lunar and casting INC put eclipse dot on every one ? Or just on one target and only when i hit CA put MF on each ? What should my opening look like on a boss like the Stone Guards ? And during the fight, only maintain both dots on 1 target, and on the others the eclipse dot ? Normal strat there is one who is "outside" so he don't gain energy but take 90% less damage, shall we put dot's on him to get more SS procs ?

The same for the fight of Wind Lord Mel'Jarak or maybe Garalon too. There are 10 targets, 4 are CC, that leave us 6. How should i open this fight ? one cast from lunar, INC, Then put eclipse dot on the 6, Starfire, ( But when doing that, INC will fall off during CA ? ), hitting CA phase, put MF on each ? What should my opening look like on a boss like that, and the combat phase ? Put eclipse dot on each, SS when procs, un-eclipsed dot if there are still each eclipse dot on each add, and just play with that nothing more ? ( no wrath or starfire ).
Or shall i open with CA, and put MF on each so each have both dots ? Starfall on cooldown.

And what if there's an AOE phase right now, but i'm casting the starfire that put me out of lunar, shall i stop the cast, and use shroom/astral storm if like 10 low life adds ( Maloriak ), put eclipse dot on each if 3 4 adds that last longer then 15sec ? Or should i go ahead and only start aoe when i'm in solar ?
The same but i just go outside lunar, cast 3 Starfire to solar and then start aoe ?

Will there be someone writting a moonkin guide for each encounters in MoP ? Still use Shroom or can i put them out of my binds ? It looks like one shroom did more damage then one hurricane tick. But i find that they are a bit slow for putting them on ground...i mean, when i spam the binds, i spam 3 times, but it only put one shroom on ground, it's fairly low actually.

Sorry for so much question, i would like to try thoose bosses with my live UI, but i can't, or try them lonely in a "try room" to find the right rotation, i'm a but lost actually...sorry if my english is a bit bad...thank you for reading and answering me.

[Lilija]

I run a sim today and I got : Int > SP > Haste = Crit > Mastery

Intel: 1
SpellP: 0.77
Crit: 0.64
Haste: 0.64
Mastery: 0.55

I didn't run hit as we take hit cap for granded.

I'm like wtf now....

With incarnation, lvl 85 live version

Personally, I don't trust simcraft for 85 - it is showing much lower results than we are doing in reality. It would be logical if simc is using lvl90 rotation which isn't really suitable for lvl85.

[Juvencus]

Personally, I don't trust simcraft for 85 - it is showing much lower results than we are doing in reality. It would be logical if simc is using lvl90 rotation which isn't really suitable for lvl85.

Problem is that I got the "accepted" priority a few days ago with same settings: Intel>SP>Crit>Haste=Mastery with haste and mastery changing places all the time on the graph but remaining virtually the same (after breakpoints).

Also @Rimak : I don't think using Mushrooms on cd is viable anymore, not when ~2 ticks of Solar Hurricane do the same damage. They are still good for preplace, downtime or movement though.

[Deleted]

Oke, after my simcraft ran for 8 houres (WTH lol) these are the stat values it gave me:
Intellect- 3.94
crit- 2.66
haste- 2.37
mastery- 2.22

Previous simcrafts to show me what kinda dps i should be doing personally (lower settings) gave a value for haste and mastery closer to each other. Now after this long and higher settings there is a clear difference between the two. I know it doesnt mean much for 90 yet, but just for fun :P

[Juvencus]

Oke, after my simcraft ran for 8 houres (WTH lol) these are the stat values it gave me:
Intellect- 3.94
crit- 2.66
haste- 2.37
mastery- 2.22

Previous simcrafts to show me what kinda dps i should be doing personally (lower settings) gave a value for haste and mastery closer to each other. Now after this long and higher settings there is a clear difference between the two. I know it doesnt mean much for 90 yet, but just for fun :P

Can you post your normalised values? All stat ratios against :1 Intel.

[Deleted]

Can you post your normalised values? All stat ratios against :1 Intel.

Im sorry, already closed simcraft now.

[Kritkin]

Normalized values should be, if my math is right:

Int= 1
Crit= 0.675
Haste= 0.60
Mast= 0.56

[Juvencus]

Normalized values should be, if my math is right:

Int= 1
Crit= 0.675
Haste= 0.60
Mast= 0.56

Which means that they are pretty much the same, while favourite slightly crit for reforging/geming etc. No more "useless" itemization for gear and I think that's Blizz's goal for MoP.
Point is that with everything above 0.5 means that the secondary stat gems will be better than Intel, given their double stat nature, especially crit and haste.

[xtramuscle]

Which means that they are pretty much the same, while favourite slightly crit for reforging/geming etc. No more "useless" itemization for gear and I think that's Blizz's goal for MoP.
Point is that with everything above 0.5 means that the secondary stat gems will be better than Intel, given their double stat nature, especially crit and haste.

Wtb yellow sockets for bonus come mop, or we'll have to start working out silly bonuses