Pantheon still viable nowadays?

[pateuvasiliu]

He's the only reason I am tempted to go back to League.

How's he doing these days?

[Duilliath]

He's okay. Still does his early game thing, but falls off like a ton of bricks past 30 minutes.

That means you *need* to get ahead and get your team ahead of you're just gonna faceplant into a wall. Had a game not too long ago where a Pantheon mid just completely took over the game. If his ult was off CD, he'd be getting the sidelanes a kill or assist.

[Deleted]

What Duilliath said basicly.

But games tend to drag out to late game most of the time. So he is just walks around doing fuck all in teamfights.

Unless of course you can get ahead early. It just is a gamble to take Pantheon in this meta. Tank junglers just outscale him so hard and are 10 times more usefull in TF's then pantheon will ever be.

[pateuvasiliu]

He's okay. Still does his early game thing, but falls off like a ton of bricks past 30 minutes.

That means you *need* to get ahead and get your team ahead of you're just gonna faceplant into a wall. Had a game not too long ago where a Pantheon mid just completely took over the game. If his ult was off CD, he'd be getting the sidelanes a kill or assist.

Well, he's always been that way.

[Airlick]

Mantheon has always been and always will be (unless he gets a complete overhaul) an early game monster. Can't lose early, can't win late game as Mantheon. If you want to win a game with him, you have to get a massive lead and snowball other lanes. Late game all he can do is try to murder a carry before he gets squashed in fights. I had like 90% win ratio with him in s3, and I mostly played him as support. He's sort of like Shaco, pick him and one team is guaranteed to have a bad time.

[Ergar]

Never been a huge fan of him. Easily counterable with sustain if he goes top. Pick someone like Nasus, go full armor runes and his spears will be nothing more than a mild annoyance. His jungling is better, but even then i would rather have someone that scales better into lategame. Lategame Pantheon is almost as useful as a lategame Shaco.

[Kasierith]

His late game is dependent on the enemy team having bad positioning. Which is fine for low ELO's, but even mid range people generally get the idea of how to fight a pantheon. Ultimately, there are just better jungler choices out there for flanking the enemy without being so squishy if you want to bring damage.

Ultimately, the current meta is favoring tanks who are a presence independent of items. Pantheon absolutely needs items to have any damage late game. He also absolutely needs items if he wants to be tanky. His assassin build to pick off ADC's is nice, but its high risk high rewards, and you can use other junglers to get lower risk but same reward.

[Duronos]

His late game is dependent on the enemy team having bad positioning. Which is fine for low ELO's, but even mid range people generally get the idea of how to fight a pantheon. Ultimately, there are just better jungler choices out there for flanking the enemy without being so squishy if you want to bring damage.

Ultimately, the current meta is favoring tanks who are a presence independent of items. Pantheon absolutely needs items to have any damage late game. He also absolutely needs items if he wants to be tanky. His assassin build to pick off ADC's is nice, but its high risk high rewards, and you can use other junglers to get lower risk but same reward.

This simply isn't true, many would consider Pantheon my best jungler after Shaco and people and currently a lot of high elo players have good things to say about him. His late game isn't necessarily dependent on bad positioning but more of using your ult correctly, that is actually the key to whether you're a good Panth player or not and it does indeed require you to hard read but also using after a teamfight has broke out and having you drop in the middle of the chaos is quite funny watching the enemy team just feel completely lost.

[Yvaelle]

Pantheon falls into the same problem I have with Elise jungle lately. The game is decided in teamfights in the current meta, and both of them only really contribute single target stuns. They do good damage in melee - but that's a very dangerous position in a teamfight. Junglers today either want to bring mass CC (ex. Sejuani, J4), or be impervious to damage (virtually all tank meta picks depending on their build), or have the range to stand on the outskirts and blow everyone up (Nidalee, Evelynn).

Elise and Pantheon both have strong ganks, are great duelists, and good objective takers - but they're not teamfighters - and that's what matters right now.

[Duilliath]

Play him mid instead in a pick / dive comp

[Kasierith]

This simply isn't true, many would consider Pantheon my best jungler after Shaco and people and currently a lot of high elo players have good things to say about him. His late game isn't necessarily dependent on bad positioning but more of using your ult correctly, that is actually the key to whether you're a good Panth player or not and it does indeed require you to hard read but also using after a teamfight has broke out and having you drop in the middle of the chaos is quite funny watching the enemy team just feel completely lost.

All things are relative. Success here and there does not indicate a strong presence in the meta overall, with the reverse also being true. For example, Elise has had and still has many supporters, but as time has ground on since her nerfs a few patches ago accompanied by a meta shift, even her most steadfast supporters like Nightblue have acknowledged that, while efficacious in the right hands if you can get things going the way you want, she's in a very bad place in the game right now compared to the months after her release when she was a star in LCS.

Currently, Pantheon is in the same place as Yi or Fiddles. His output and impact after the early game is very item dependent. The meta right now strongly favors junglers who are strong independent of their items, such as Sejuani, Reksai, and J4.

[Duronos]

All things are relative. Success here and there does not indicate a strong presence in the meta overall, with the reverse also being true. For example, Elise has had and still has many supporters, but as time has ground on since her nerfs a few patches ago accompanied by a meta shift, even her most steadfast supporters like Nightblue have acknowledged that, while efficacious in the right hands if you can get things going the way you want, she's in a very bad place in the game right now compared to the months after her release when she was a star in LCS.

Currently, Pantheon is in the same place as Yi or Fiddles. His output and impact after the early game is very item dependent. The meta right now strongly favors junglers who are strong independent of their items, such as Sejuani, Reksai, and J4.

I'm ranked in the world for Elise (it's not as good as it sounds) and I think she's still relatively shit. Pantheon and Fiddle though? Actual decent Fiddle players know how to countergank pre-6 since Fiddle counterganks are indeed quite good. Your top lane is pushing? You as Fiddle go up there knowing enemy jungler will gank and you wait in the lane bush, oh shit is that the enemy jungler? Fear, Silence, Drain... Countergank successful.

Pantheon at level 6 should always get a kill on his first ultimate, you preferably want to gank bot lane as there are two kills just waiting to be had. Pantheon can scale decently into the teamfight stage even if not ahead by just knowing when and how to ult at the right time... Seriously there is a difference between a normal/average Pantheon player and a solid/decent Pantheon player, it's all about the ult.

[Sin Cara]

His late game is dependent on the enemy team having bad positioning. Which is fine for low ELO's, but even mid range people generally get the idea of how to fight a pantheon. Ultimately, there are just better jungler choices out there for flanking the enemy without being so squishy if you want to bring damage.

Ultimately, the current meta is favoring tanks who are a presence independent of items. Pantheon absolutely needs items to have any damage late game. He also absolutely needs items if he wants to be tanky. His assassin build to pick off ADC's is nice, but its high risk high rewards, and you can use other junglers to get lower risk but same reward.

Pretty much this all the way.
No offense Guru, but could you link your profile, because to me, you seem to be talking out of your ass.

[Deleted]

Played him a lot a few weeks ago, you feel very strong early, but I felt more useless than a wet towel late game. Tank doesn't work, assassin doesn't work, everything is really short range so you are basically another support for your ADC.

[Yvaelle]

Actual decent Fiddle players know how to countergank pre-6 since Fiddle counterganks are indeed quite good. Your top lane is pushing? You as Fiddle go up there knowing enemy jungler will gank and you wait in the lane bush, oh shit is that the enemy jungler? Fear, Silence, Drain... Countergank successful.

I don't think Fiddle is a bad choice right now at all, especially tank-fiddle builds (RoA / Spirit Visage / Rylai's, etc), and/or strong peel builds with lots of CDR: I'm a little surprised we haven't seen more Fiddletanks at LCS so far actually.

Fiddle and Pantheon are very different creatures though - so I don't know why we're equating them.

Pantheon at level 6 should always get a kill on his first ultimate, you preferably want to gank bot lane as there are two kills just waiting to be had. Pantheon can scale decently into the teamfight stage even if not ahead by just knowing when and how to ult at the right time... Seriously there is a difference between a normal/average Pantheon player and a solid/decent Pantheon player, it's all about the ult.

No doubt a good pantheon ult to close out a retreat is the essence of Pantheon - but the amount of time it takes to cast/land makes it generally impractical at high levels IMO. While it is essential to be able to do it at the right time, deep enough behind that you are neither isolating yourself, or undershooting (so that they all retreat before you hit) - most of what Pantheon does in a teamfight is going to be during the like 3 minutes between ults. In the right comp, Pantheon still has a place - if you have Malphite's and J4's and such who can isolate enemies - you can force a full teamfight with a deep lane Pantheon ult where they might normally have cut their losses otherwise: but outside of those Pantheon-built comps he's not meta.

I can Jungle Sejuani on any comp right now and know my CC - my knockup and stun and chain-slows - are going to make big contributions to teamfights regardless of what my teammates pick.

Or I can pick Evelynn and know that early game my ganks will pacify or punish any aggressiveness in the enemy team - and that by lategame I'll be a tanky annoying assassintank who drops a 70% aoe snare with big damage as an invisible initiate to our teamfight. Eve performs the same role that Pantheon can fill - only if he lands his Ult as a proper engage - but she's much more consistent about landing that initiate, at the slight cost of being less brawlery. XZ is the same, he's like Pantheon Jungle - but more consistent - and not quite as tanky.

Consistency matters a lot right now from your junglers - games are long and respawn times are what ends them now, not Aces. Getting a couple kills off a consistent-but-inferior engage is way better than that Pantheon perfect-engage-to-ace that even the best players only land 30% of the time (and even that is probably generous).

[Kasierith]

I don't think Fiddle is a bad choice right now at all, especially tank-fiddle builds (RoA / Spirit Visage / Rylai's, etc), and/or strong peel builds with lots of CDR: I'm a little surprised we haven't seen more Fiddletanks at LCS so far actually.

Fiddle and Pantheon are very different creatures though - so I don't know why we're equating them.

I was equating them in terms of being gear dependent esp in the mid game specifically, not in all areas. Fiddles is pretty dependent on items early on, although he benefits from being able to build into survivability and damage simultaneously, unlike pantheon who chooses one or the other. A Fiddles who gets behind really can't impact a team that is consciousness of his positioning and is wary of ults on their squishies.

Which is why he isn't a LCS champion. He's a bully who depends on already being in a dominant position, either in terms of items where you can force a tower dive or dominance of vision. If you are behind in the game and the other team is warding properly, unless there's a thresh or a bard to help out Fiddles really just becomes reactionary, which means he isn't a consistent threat.

[Yvaelle]

I hadn't considered that before but I now think you're right - when Fiddle is ahead and has vision control, or when he had a strong prelude engage to his Crowstorm - he can do extremely well - but without those things he will struggle to win an uphill teamfight. He can snowball a lead, but if he falls behind he ends up useless fast. People need champions that can still perform when they're behind - and that isn't Fiddlesticks so much.

[Duronos]

Pretty much this all the way.
No offense Guru, but could you link your profile, because to me, you seem to be talking out of your ass.

I'm not going down this road again, let's just say I'm anywhere from high d5 to mid d3 currently depending on the week and if I'm tilting or not.

- - - Updated - - -

Also (on phone so quoting sucks) Kasierith, I can hit Pantheon ults at high levels of play or what people would think is a high level. It's all about predicting your opponents movement something like 5 seconds ahead of time. Doesn't mean I hit it every time but it's not inpossible, depending on the situation you either use it to engage or to cause chaos in already started teamfight. I still remember one game where we had no initiation except me with a Pantheon ult, we won because I made a clutch ult.