[Megathread] DotA 2

[Deleted]

Did you see the link to Swiftending's experiment? How did he manage to win 95% of his games from 3k MMR to 4k MMR? How did he manage to get mid? Was he just lucky? How did he manage to win his lane every time? You don't need anything from your team. Get better and you will win games.

*Get good as OP heroes and mid heroes to win while some poor fucker on your team gets raped as a solo support.

Until somebody gets their rating from a new account to 5.5k as PURE support the system is total trash.

[Charge me Doctor]

Did you see the link to Swiftending's experiment? How did he manage to win 95% of his games from 3k MMR to 4k MMR? How did he manage to get mid? Was he just lucky? How did he manage to win his lane every time? You don't need anything from your team. Get better and you will win games.

I wonder more about "how did he managed to get mid all the time" part. From my experience, all games have mid instant lockers or mid callers

[Lysah]

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If top level players want to play, they should 5 stack so they don't ruin other's games. Sure, they will face 5 stacks that are worse than them, and it'll be free wins, but if you are truly a 6500 player and there is truly nobody online to match against you then any game you play in is a guaranteed win anyway. The system cannot possibly make a match that is not already mathematically guaranteed for Arteezy to win, so it doesn't matter what his game actually IS, all that matters is that he ruins as few people's time as possible. It's minimizing the damage of having a player way outside everyone else's league, as that's really all that can be done. In his situation, if he solo queues and there aren't enough people online for a match - guess what? He doesn't get to play - exactly. He sits in queue for 3 hours waiting for people to log on and fill his match.

Hey wait, it's almost like I've actually been in this situation myself and know the system is capable of making these decisions.

Or was, anyway.

And all I'm saying is that you have no reason to think the system works. You want to believe it works so you do. I just spent literally like six hours trying to explain this to Manni so I'm not going to write much more about it here, you'll figure out what I'm saying or you won't, it would take me far too much forum space to write more down.


As far as the system itself goes, you're right, what we have is probably the best Valve can do. That doesn't mean it doesn't have flaws. That doesn't mean anyone should defend it as a good system. "The best we got" does not immediately mean good. You yourself are giving me evidence for my own argument, showing ME that it can be abused and manipulated. Thank you for that, you are arguing my position for me.

In the end, as long as the system is what it is and has potential for abuse, it leads by logical extension that you cannot assume anything about MMR. A 4500 player is not necessarily better than a 4400 player, or even a 4000 player. All the system currently says about him is that he wins more games. To most people, that's good enough, winning more games makes people better players than others who don't win more games. But as we've been discussing, this is not necessarily true. The 4500 player might just be better at playing the system. He counterpicks and he always goes mid. He is not a better player than the guy who always randoms and has a slightly worse MMR, he simply sets himself up for success. Yes, some people might say that setting yourself up for success makes you better, but when you win merely because you outpicked the enemy, and not outplayed them, we will have to agree to disagree. You will never convince me that a 4500 rated player who always counterpicks is better than a 4400 rated player who always first randoms, ever, so don't bother.

And, to finalize that train of thought, as you fail to ever convince me that hypothetical 4500 rated tryhard is better than hypothetical 4400 casual (to be artistic about it) I hope you can see why I believe that MMR is a joke and should not be taken remotely seriously. If you want me to explain my personal experience with matchmaking which has led me to actually argue these things I can certainly enlighten you, but I didn't really want to bring up personal anecdotes in this discussion unless people are interested in it.

- - - Updated - - -

And to add to that, if people want to prove that climbing MMR is easy and they are God's gift to DotA, I propose this challenge:

Randomize the lane you go to. Random your hero every game. Only play AP. See where you end up after calibration, see if you can climb to 6k. Don't game the system, don't always go mid, don't pick your hero around the enemy team. Play casually like 99.99% of the world does, pick heroes because they're fun. Pick heroes because your stream said so. Go shadow blade mjollnir daedalus Lina in a 5000 rating match because you felt like it. If you are truly a better player, you should still be able to win.

[Charge me Doctor]

@Lysah
What about people who play only one hero, all the time? A friend of mine played only Rubick (carry, support, mid, w.e. was needed for the team) and had 50%-55% wins, while i played all heroes i wanted (mainly Omniknight) and never had win ratio above 52%
As you spoke about people who pick certain role (mid) and certain type of heroes (snowball) to cheat the system, i just wonder what do you feel about people who play "fill the niche in the team" role, and/or one hero exclusively.

And i remember playing (and enjoying, and stomping) Meepo when he was released in WC3 dota, it was fun time, and back then, on Garena, i played him exclusively, i called that i will pick him in lobby and was kicked half of the time tho.
And now, i don't want to risk others people time and nerves because people can't kick me from lobby for picking Meepo, and they will flame me all the time if i lose (and it can happen due to counterpicks or mine fuck ups).
But i've seen some good Meepo players with more than 500 games on him, but looking at their history, they all use blink-nuke strategy which is kinda boring and non creative =(

[Lysah]

It depends, I think playing one hero and only one hero can get you so high but you won't penetrate (hue) the upper echelon of ranked because people will start counterpicking you and you will get kicked back down for not knowing more heroes. Which is fair. The problem arrives when all 10 players are waiting to counterpick each other, all 10 players want to go mid because they need to win to boost their MMR and get out of the trench, etc.

Suffice to say you can't both play for fun and play for rating, that's pretty much how I feel.

[veiledy0]

I wonder more about "how did he managed to get mid all the time" part. From my experience, all games have mid instant lockers or mid callers

I wonder this as well, as from my experience, there's always that braindead russian pudge instamid, whom you can't argue with since he only speaks his mongoloid language. I can't remember the last time I got to play mid because of this, up to a point I don't even try to call mid anymore, but nor can I remember the last time I lost mid, or my team lost with me playing mid in general.

Warning: Let's simmer down on the nation bashing please.

[Deleted]

I wonder this as well, as from my experience, there's always that braindead russian pudge instamid, whom you can't argue with since he only speaks his mongoloid language. I can't remember the last time I got to play mid because of this, up to a point I don't even try to call mid anymore, but nor can I remember the last time I lost mid, or my team lost with me playing mid in general.

I've no idea what's the deal with calling stuff in pubs. Everyone (including yourself) does whatever the hell they want - 4 carry team? sure. 3 people "calling" mid and arguing? sure. Only viable support picker going carry? no problem.

You want mid? You go mid. Usually, 5/10 they swear, ping, harass you etc but will leave before creeps come. 4/10 they leave after you take all their farm and piss them off by ignoring them by the 3rd-4th wave comes. 1/10 they match my stubbornness and we dual mid, which I admit is usually the perfect recipe for a lost game. Still, by the looks of it, odds are in my favor if I want to go mid.

If you can make them think that you are even more hard to communicate than they are (I just tell them "muted" when they start spamming), they will develop this sense of superiority and leave you alone because they are so much "greater than you" - which is exactly what I want.

[Deleted]

Then whats the point to play a teamgame when you need to carry 4 guys that hard?

If you want to play a teamgame I suggest you get some friends.

dota 2 MMR problems is a dejavu from lol mmr before they implemented the league system.

What.
The League system has no impact on MMR whatsoever, it's just a glorified achievement system.

[veiledy0]

I've no idea what's the deal with calling stuff in pubs. Everyone (including yourself) does whatever the hell they want - 4 carry team? sure. 3 people "calling" mid and arguing? sure. Only viable support picker going carry? no problem.

You want mid? You go mid. Usually, 5/10 they swear, ping, harass you etc but will leave before creeps come. 4/10 they leave after you take all their farm and piss them off by ignoring them by the 3rd-4th wave comes. 1/10 they match my stubbornness and we dual mid, which I admit is usually the perfect recipe for a lost game. Still, by the looks of it, odds are in my favor if I want to go mid.

If you can make them think that you are even more hard to communicate than they are (I just tell them "muted" when they start spamming), they will develop this sense of superiority and leave you alone because they are so much "greater than you" - which is exactly what I want.

Did what you said, just to prove my point. Russians gonna russian, no matter what.



The best part was when their Sven said "Come feed me, not Invoker"


Infracted. Nationality bashing is against forum guidelines. Also you should post thumbnails for larger images or crop them. -Hermanni

[Deleted]

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You are still saying that anyone above 5.5k can't play Dota because of not enough players in the pool. This would lead to them quitting the game and you'd have the same issue all over again. The ones that were once 5k will rise because the 5.5k players won't keep them down there and suddenly the 5k players can't play Dota. This will effectively cut off a portion of the player base until you have none left. That's not a working system in my opinion.

And Arteezy doesn't win all games even though there never is anyone at his rating. That means the games aren't guaranteed win.

Why can't people defend it as a good system? I never felt like I met a 4k player that played like a 6k player or vice versa. I'm not saynig all 6k players are super good but they are for sure better than 5k players.

Abused accounts are a problem, yes. But they are being looked into and there are very few of them at the moment and they aren't played anyway because they know they'd start losing and go down in rating because the system works and will bring you down eventually. And abuse only works in calibration. It doesn't work in a normal ranked game, which is 99% of the cases. You are again taking the 1% case to declare a system broken. That makes no sense to me. It's like saying a car model is bad because 1% of the cars have a problem.

Your 4.5k vs 4.4k is also quite weird. Sure, the 4.4k player might be better if he tries hard but what does that matter? If he doesn't and plays worse because he doesn't try hard and wins less then that's all that matters for the ranked system. The 4.5k try hard is winning while the 4.4k isn't because he is playing worse. Do you want to give the non-try hard a higher rating even though he plays worse just because he is a better player in theory?

Your challenge is silly and logically flawed. "Don't try your best to win and see if you get the same rating as when you try your hardest to win". You want people to go SB Daedlus Lina and lose the game and then say that these people deserve higher rating because they're better? It makes no sense to me what you want with this. If you go weird builds and "fun" builds and lose because you are not trying, don't you think the system should put you at a lower rating where you have a 50% chance to win when it matches you with equal MMR people? I think that makes sense. You get to play your style of "fun" Dota and still have a 50% chance to win, also known as a fair match.

It does not matter if you in reality are a better player. No one cares that Messi is the best mid fielder in the world if he is playing as a defender and Barcelona wouldn't let him play as defender in a Champion League finals either because if he plays as a defender then those kind of games are out of his league. Especially if he doesn't try to win and is just playing for "fun".

@Puffler

OP heroes? More like heroes that let him win games on his own because he is better than the rest. Surely that is what you want when you consider yourself way above the MMR you were given? Why rely on people you consider worse than you? The people in your team can only win 50% of their games because that is how the system works so if you rely on them completely to win games for you then of course you are going to only win around 50% of your games. What is it that people don't get about that?

I hear everyone say "If I get to go mid and play OP heroes I would win like Swiftending". No you wouldn't. You think you would? 1v1 me and I'll show you the difference but then you'd say something along the lines of "I'm not a mid player".

[Deleted]

I've won my last 15/20 games when I went mid.

So I could say with reasonable facts that if I went mid every game I could get to 5k.

But I don't get to go mid every game unfortunately.


And the whole 1v1 mid thing is a pointless argument really.

[Deleted]

I've won my last 15/20 games when I went mid.

So I could say with reasonable facts that if I went mid every game I could get to 5k.

But I don't get to go mid every game unfortunately.


And the whole 1v1 mid thing is a pointless argument really.

Oh, I thought we talked about 6k here. Yes, going high impact heroes usually wins you games if you are better than your MMR. Getting mid is not that difficult if you just insta lock your hero and call it. But I guess people wait until after someone else calls it and then whines about not having the chance to go mid.

And 15/20 isn't 95%.

[Deleted]

I can't really talk about 6k, as I i'm not 6k

At my rating 4.5k currently, people tend to insta pick mids so its kinda hard to get it.

By no means am I a top tier player, but I think i'm around 4.8k - 5.k mark and I do not feel that my MMR reflects that, as I like to play support in ranked.


I never said anything about 95% did I ? - I see what you was talking about now, that just backs up my point about supports and MMR really.

[Deleted]

I can't really talk about 6k, as I i'm not 6k

At my rating 4.5k currently, people tend to insta pick mids so its kinda hard to get it.

By no means am I a top tier player, but I think i'm around 4.8k - 5.k mark and I do not feel that my MMR reflects that, as I like to play support in ranked.


I never said anything about 95% did I ?

I don't think being 300-400 MMR under your mark is that unreasonable. Just try your hardest to win if you want to rise quickly or you can just keep playing ranked and eventually you will get there.

You made it sound as what Swiftending did was easy because he picked OP heroes and went mid.

[Deleted]

I just feel like the people I play with are just all terrible, but I've played with top tier players a few times and I did okay, not great - so I guess i'm sort of in between "decent player" and "Really good player"

I'm not saying its is easy to win 90% of your games, shit its hard to win 60%

Its more than I am annoyed that you have to pick mid heroes or high impact heroes to increase your rating currently.

[veiledy0]

Its more than I am annoyed that you have to pick mid heroes or high impact heroes to increase your rating currently.

Not really. A good ganking support, or a support duo, can win games almost as much as a good mid hero/player can. You and I can, for example, pick Mirana/Bane from like 3k and rise to 4k in a week or so.

[Sorcereria]

Was that an invitation veiled?

[Maruka]

Does anyone think that guy could win 95% of his games in the 3k bracket by randoming every time? Im just curious as to what people think.

[veiledy0]

Does anyone think that guy could win 95% of his games in the 3k bracket by randoming every time? Im just curious as to what people think.

Only if he repicked Shadow Fiend every time he didn't random it.

[Deleted]

Does anyone think that guy could win 95% of his games in the 3k bracket by randoming every time? Im just curious as to what people think.

In the 3k bracket? Yes.