1. #19861
    Quote Originally Posted by Ariadne View Post
    A 5k NA player is not the equivalent of a 6k MMR player in EU. I can already tell from Arteezy's stream.
    Not saying that's necessarily true, that doesn't mean the ratings are equal, either, though. EU is probably inflated because of more games played and more players. That will lead to some degree of skill inflation as well, probably not a clean thousand yet, but it does mean that I don't think you really know what it's like to be on a team of 4500s in NA until you play NA.

  2. #19862
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    Not saying that's necessarily true, that doesn't mean the ratings are equal, either, though. EU is probably inflated because of more games played and more players. That will lead to some degree of skill inflation as well, probably not a clean thousand yet, but it does mean that I don't think you really know what it's like to be on a team of 4500s in NA until you play NA.
    I will try.

    I believe ritsu is for sure one of the most promising up-and-coming players. I saw his skill when he played against Arteezy in FPL. The way a top tier core player pressures the map by just farming shows a lot about how good they are.
    Last edited by mmoc9f3c8526e6; 2015-09-12 at 04:53 AM.

  3. #19863
    Quote Originally Posted by Ariadne View Post
    I will try.

    I believe ritsu is for sure one of the most promising up-and-coming players. I saw his skill when he played against Arteezy in FPL. The way a top tier core player pressures the map by just farming shows a lot about how good they are.
    http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1786947840
    There you go. Lesh got shut down and he never came back. Of course, we raxed at like 21 minutes so he never got a chance to. Games are so much nicer the very rare occasion you can go roaming CK and your team picks good heroes and wins all 3 lanes.

    Even still, 1-11 Lesh has 134 CS in 30 minutes and still rocking 300 gpm.

  4. #19864
    Deleted
    Results so far from US East pubbing from 1 game:

    Had a griefer from minute zero that AFK woods. Everyone is fucking bad. I faced an Ember who didn't use shield at all and if I didn't play with delay I'm sure he'd die. Had a Mirana shoot 5 arrows mid and miss all of them instead of just fuck with a BS woods. She then laughs at my Meld max against Ember. Rofl.

    Conclusions so far: Can't really draw any conclusions as our supposed 5k Veno was griefer but that Ember was for sure bad, too bad I missed all my Melds due to delay.

    By the way, rocking 300 GPM is bad. Real bad. Any mid player on any hero should have at least 400 GPM. Doesn't matter how shut down you are. If you don't break 400 GPM when you lose you are a trash mid. And even then, 400 GPM is on the low end when you're losing. You should average 500-600 GPM when losing.
    Last edited by mmoc9f3c8526e6; 2015-09-12 at 10:56 AM.

  5. #19865
    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1786947840
    There you go. Lesh got shut down and he never came back. Of course, we raxed at like 21 minutes so he never got a chance to. Games are so much nicer the very rare occasion you can go roaming CK and your team picks good heroes and wins all 3 lanes.

    Even still, 1-11 Lesh has 134 CS in 30 minutes and still rocking 300 gpm.
    the fuck is that ck, did u roam or something
    "We live in a world where a style of play that uses posession and passing to try and make spaces is made fun of.
    While a style of play where a team sits back for 90 minutes and breaks away in 1v1 situations is respected."
    - Ronald Koeman.

  6. #19866
    Deleted
    http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1787761588

    Tell me there wasn't a massive difference between Riki and BS vs rest of their team. They were for sure much better. Both BS and Riki were much higher MMR than rest of their team. Are you also surpised that DP is the lowest in our team?

  7. #19867
    Quote Originally Posted by Ariadne View Post
    Results so far from US East pubbing from 1 game:
    Everyone is fucking bad.
    Welcome to my turf.

  8. #19868
    Deleted
    http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1788844916

    Yeah, US East isn't better after 3 games. Actually, the 4k players on US East feel more entitled and really suck dick. Just watch that game and tell me which players were 4k and which were 5k and above. It's blatantly obvious.

  9. #19869
    Quote Originally Posted by Ariadne View Post
    Everyone is fucking bad.
    True
    And 300 GPM when you get raxed at 15 minutes and are 1-11 is definitely not bad. It's bad if it's 30 minutes and you still have towers and you can farm jungle, sure, but when you literally cannot ever leave your fountain it's pretty solid. The point here is that he pretty much got kicked to his fountain straight from level 1, died repeatedly mid (was level 5 when Lina was 7 iirc), and still got 134 cs before he lost. He managed to keep up with the Drow on his team who literally avoided all of us the entire game and sat in the jungle with MoM while Lesh tried to defend in vain.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ariadne View Post
    http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1788844916

    Yeah, US East isn't better after 3 games. Actually, the 4k players on US East feel more entitled and really suck dick. Just watch that game and tell me which players were 4k and which were 5k and above. It's blatantly obvious.
    Is it really that obvious? When the lower rated players are also the most fragile heroes on the team, they're bound to do poorly, this is not a support meta.
    http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1786391577

    Quote Originally Posted by EqualWin View Post
    the fuck is that ck, did u roam or something
    Yeah, ganked mid at level 1, then went bot, then went back to mid, then top, only time I spent in lane was taking over mid for a while when he went jungling. CK is actually a stupidly good ganker and will probably be my second pick for when idiots pick my BH.
    Last edited by Lysah; 2015-09-12 at 09:59 PM.

  10. #19870
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    Is it really that obvious? When the lower rated players are also the most fragile heroes on the team, they're bound to do poorly, this is not a support meta.
    It was extremely obvious. That Spectre was low. He kept dying to mines that he saw got placed. He literally had a lane ward from me all early game yet he kept dying to mines on lane and didn't ping mines to teammates so when we went there we died. All he did was stand on the lane and all he had to do was watch Techies place mines. Second low guy is the Sand King. Why? I knew he was low from the first 5 minutes. I took it upon myself to zone out Techies and let Sand King pull and stack and get his dagger. Color me surprised when he didn't stack at all between his pulls. Fuck that guy too.

    In my other game it was obvious who was low because our DP was total shit. She made all the wrong calls. Every time she made the call to take a fight we lost the fight. And she made the mistake I said before. She died without having any purpose.

    I'm not talking about stats here when I say "watch that game". I'm talking about their play. Doesn't matter what hero you're on. The moment you are in a game with me and you affect my play in any way I will figure out your MMR level.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Update 4: Yeah, US East players are definitely worse. They're so weak laners. I am actually shocked at how bad at laning US East players are.
    Last edited by mmoc9f3c8526e6; 2015-09-12 at 10:21 PM.

  11. #19871
    How low were they actually? I never see the kind of bad you are describing in my games. Sounds like low 3ks when the lowest I've ever been matched with is around 4200. People generally know how to "play" i.e. copy the pros in my games.

  12. #19872
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    How low were they actually? I never see the kind of bad you are describing in my games. Sounds like low 3ks when the lowest I've ever been matched with is around 4200. People generally know how to "play" i.e. copy the pros in my games.
    4.5-4.7k I think they were. I mean another example is I face an Ember as Storm and he manages to get zoned out at level 2.

  13. #19873
    Quote Originally Posted by Ariadne View Post
    4.5k I think they were.
    Interesting, I never see people who don't know how to play their hero period. The usual 4.5k problems are essentially not knowing when to avoid fights and just farm, not knowing when to abandon teammates because you can't save them, being too confident late game when ahead and getting picked off. Most of their problems persist all the way up to the pro level, too, it's not like we don't see teams at TI5 trying to take Rosh when they can't possibly win a team fight there and have no vision. I would say the thing that holds most 4k NA players back from being 6k is that they're all a bunch of assholes and refuse to cooperate even a little bit. Most of the people I play with are alright, but they tilt the second they die once and start intentionally feeding or do other stupid shit and lose the game on purpose. I would switch to EU just to avoid the cancer that is the NA playerbase, but I don't think it really gets any better.

  14. #19874
    Deleted
    The 4ks in the US I've seen are as bad if not worse than EU 4ks. Trust me, it's not the attitude that's keeping them back. I mean, just laning against the 4ks I know exactly where they stand. I mean, it's unfair for me to lane against them since I am a laning god but that gives me an even better understanding of what they do wrong.

    I mean, I can watch one of your replays with 4ks and I am sure they do almost everything wrong.
    Last edited by mmoc9f3c8526e6; 2015-09-13 at 12:49 AM.

  15. #19875
    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    Interesting, I never see people who don't know how to play their hero period. The usual 4.5k problems are essentially not knowing when to avoid fights and just farm, not knowing when to abandon teammates because you can't save them, being too confident late game when ahead and getting picked off. Most of their problems persist all the way up to the pro level, too, it's not like we don't see teams at TI5 trying to take Rosh when they can't possibly win a team fight there and have no vision. I would say the thing that holds most 4k NA players back from being 6k is that they're all a bunch of assholes and refuse to cooperate even a little bit. Most of the people I play with are alright, but they tilt the second they die once and start intentionally feeding or do other stupid shit and lose the game on purpose. I would switch to EU just to avoid the cancer that is the NA playerbase, but I don't think it really gets any better.
    Whoa, that's just because in the US, its either you go balls deep or go home!

  16. #19876
    Quote Originally Posted by Ariadne View Post
    The 4ks in the US I've seen are as bad if not worse than EU 4ks. Trust me, it's not the attitude that's keeping them back. I mean, just laning against the 4ks I know exactly where they stand. I mean, it's unfair for me to lane against them since I am a laning god but that gives me an even better understanding of what they do wrong.

    I mean, I can watch one of your replays with 4ks and I am sure they do almost everything wrong.
    Want to watch someone intentionally pick TA into 3 counters? That's pretty standard for the teammates I get

    http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1789542926
    we won tho lmao
    People throw big time at 4k bracket, I would say that's the only noticeable difference from 4ks to 5ks in my experience. 5ks throw a lot less. I think if you were serious in your criticisms, you could watch replays of 5ks and point out how they, also, do everything wrong. Pretty much everyone below the pro level makes mistakes constantly, even most of the pros make mistakes constantly.

  17. #19877
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    Want to watch someone intentionally pick TA into 3 counters? That's pretty standard for the teammates I get

    http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1789542926
    we won tho lmao
    People throw big time at 4k bracket, I would say that's the only noticeable difference from 4ks to 5ks in my experience. 5ks throw a lot less. I think if you were serious in your criticisms, you could watch replays of 5ks and point out how they, also, do everything wrong. Pretty much everyone below the pro level makes mistakes constantly, even most of the pros make mistakes constantly.
    There is a major difference. I mean I don't even need to analyze 5k games separately. I notice the difference in the games I linked you and it's reflected in their performance. If you don't see the difference it just means you don't know the difference. There are worlds of difference between a 6k and a 4k. It's not only mentality. Mechanically, decision making, game understand. All play apart. It's not throwing, 4k just play worse. They have no purpose with their play and don't understand how to play the game. Just look at the games I already showed you. I already analyzed.

    Like what are the TA counters there? As a 80% win rate TA player, none of those heroes worry me. Viper is annoying but can be dealt with. You can just runs circles around CK unless he gets super-fed. The ones that bother me are Ember and Slark. Those are the real counters to TA.

  18. #19878
    Quote Originally Posted by Ariadne View Post
    There is a major difference. I mean I don't even need to analyze 5k games separately. I notice the difference in the games I linked you and it's reflected in their performance. If you don't see the difference it just means you don't know the difference. There are worlds of difference between a 6k and a 4k. It's not only mentality. Mechanically, decision making, game understand. All play apart. It's not throwing, 4k just play worse. They have no purpose with their play and don't understand how to play the game. Just look at the games I already showed you. I already analyzed.
    Or maybe, just maybe, our experiences are different. You are hilariously arrogant and full of yourself for a pubstar, though I know most of it is just an act. We've played together, remember? Your opinion is automatically exclusive of all other opinions, not very conducive for a discussion.

    TA is countered by the 30 armor dazzle gives to his team, poison touch + viper dots and slows which prevent her from attacking anybody in the first place, Wyvern's heal which blocks 100% of her damage. She predictably did nothing this game, we were saved heavily by Axe and enemy team throwing.

    I also find it funny you think TA can take CK late game. Give both of them 6 slots and TA will get absolutely SMASHED. The ONLY way she beats CK is by being 15000 gold ahead of him. His only chance to be relevant in this game was to win his lane and get an early lead. I would say that wasn't going to happen against Viper, but he didn't even lane against Viper, they sent CK mid and he still lost. Enemy team was too busy trilaning me to make sure I never got a single CS.



    Anyway, there are obviously differences between 4k and 5k and 6k. I'm not saying they're all the exact same. But the differences are minor. Sorry if you disagree, but it's not really worth arguing about much more. I have played hundreds of games with top 50 players on the NA ladder, they aren't much different from the shitcans I get in solo queue. They give up a lot less, that goes a long way. They all also exclusively play mid, go figure. That goes an even longer way.

    Edit:
    6k MMR would currently make you top 150 in NA. If NA is full of such shit players, I fully invite you to create an alt and make the ladder, shouldn't take long. I even have an account that is almost level 13 I could give you, will probably calibrate the maximum as well.
    Last edited by Lysah; 2015-09-13 at 05:44 AM.

  19. #19879
    Deleted
    Oddly every 5k player I've ever seen is considerably worse than i am.

    Just makes me think 90% are P2W kids.

  20. #19880
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    Or maybe, just maybe, our experiences are different. You are hilariously arrogant and full of yourself for a pubstar, though I know most of it is just an act. We've played together, remember? Your opinion is automatically exclusive of all other opinions, not very conducive for a discussion.

    TA is countered by the 30 armor dazzle gives to his team, poison touch + viper dots and slows which prevent her from attacking anybody in the first place, Wyvern's heal which blocks 100% of her damage. She predictably did nothing this game, we were saved heavily by Axe and enemy team throwing.

    I also find it funny you think TA can take CK late game. Give both of them 6 slots and TA will get absolutely SMASHED. The ONLY way she beats CK is by being 15000 gold ahead of him. His only chance to be relevant in this game was to win his lane and get an early lead. I would say that wasn't going to happen against Viper, but he didn't even lane against Viper, they sent CK mid and he still lost. Enemy team was too busy trilaning me to make sure I never got a single CS.



    Anyway, there are obviously differences between 4k and 5k and 6k. I'm not saying they're all the exact same. But the differences are minor. Sorry if you disagree, but it's not really worth arguing about much more. I have played hundreds of games with top 50 players on the NA ladder, they aren't much different from the shitcans I get in solo queue. They give up a lot less, that goes a long way. They all also exclusively play mid, go figure. That goes an even longer way.

    Edit:
    6k MMR would currently make you top 150 in NA. If NA is full of such shit players, I fully invite you to create an alt and make the ladder, shouldn't take long. I even have an account that is almost level 13 I could give you, will probably calibrate the maximum as well.
    Trust me, I've always come off as arrogant though I'd like to think that most of the time I'm actually right. And unlike you, I don't ignore facts that are laid right in front of me. I've linked you several games that exactly supports what I say.

    Of course CK smashes TA late game. Which is what I said... But at like 20 minutes TA run circles around a CK and CK's problem isn't that he is weak late game. His problem is that he can't get there in a reliable way. Dazzle armor counters TA? Sure, it's annoying but doesn't mean TA will die. Wyvern's heal is annoying too. I've faced plenty of Wyvern's and sure, the heal stops you from killing someone for a bit but nothing that can't be played around. Viper easily die to TA at level 6. The Viper Strike is dodgeable by Blink and Meld and Manta.

    I'm 100% sure if you put 5 5k players against 5 4k players that the 5k players would win every game. If you put 5 6k players against 5 4k players it wouldn't even be a game. The 4ks would be stomped so hard. You think it's a coincidence I find laning against 4k players that much easier? There is a reason 4k bracket is the most toxic. Everyone thinks they're good and blame their team when in reality they're just as bad. That's why they aren't climbing. They don't improve.

    I'm not gonna bother climbing solo queue. I don't find it enjoyable. I've been top 200 leaderboards in the past and to be honest, it's just isn't fun trying hard to win when your team sucks.
    Last edited by mmoc9f3c8526e6; 2015-09-13 at 11:37 AM.

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