[Megathread] DotA 2

[Crackleslap]

No Lycan no DP no Pugna no SS no BM no Chen no Enchant no LD

What the hell is wrong with your games?

We have fun games. That's whats wrong.

Guess I should mention I am the Zeus.

Didn't realise Pugna was a thing in higher mmr. My ranked mmr is like 3.7k or someshit. calibrated at 3.9k Played ranked for a week and gave up.

[Lysah]

Didn't anybody tell you you can automatically win the game in 10 minutes by picking one of those heroes and just right clicking towers?

[Crackleslap]

Didn't anybody tell you you can automatically win the game in 10 minutes by picking one of those heroes and just right clicking towers?

I'm well aware what's in the meta. People in unranked games just don't give a shit.

[Deleted]

I'm sure the people in this thread who think core VS is terrible are forgetting the part where the hero effectively has a 4.5 agi gain due to her passive. All you gotta do with that hero is get tanky items on her and force people to either deal with you or get right clicked to death real fucking fast. She easily hits for 300+ damage with purely stat items at lvl 16 and she has a fucking clowny amount of health.

She's basically like a Wraith King that doesn't instantly suck vs mana drain heroes, contributes to Rosh control, and actually lanes well. There are very few cores that are better in deathball strats.

It's like some people fall into the trap of thinking "this hero can't rice waaah waah must be a terrible carry waah waah works as a support too waaah waaah" and then choose to completely overlook just how well core VS works in practice. Sure, it's not gonna work in your mongoloid pub games because pubs are completely uncoordinated and actually just can't execute push strats ever, but you have to be deliberately ignoring the wealth of pro games where core VS is what allows teams to just mow down raxes at 20 minutes if you're actually going to sit here and say core VS is ass.

[Lysah]

She works in deathball strats, but people pick her for no particular reason at all. Also, many of her wins are still as a support role, and she is struggling to maintain a 50% winrate this patch. As far as the pro scene goes, carry VS isn't working all that well.

I mean, it's like saying that Pugna makes a great right click carry because OMFG 4.0 INT GAIN SO MUCH DAMAGE JUST BUILD STATS CAN'T DIE LITEARLLY 300+ RIGHT CLICKS

[Deleted]

She works in deathball strats, but people pick her for no particular reason at all. Also, many of her wins are still as a support role, and she is struggling to maintain a 50% winrate this patch. As far as the pro scene goes, carry VS isn't working all that well.

I mean, it's like saying that Pugna makes a great right click carry because OMFG 4.0 INT GAIN SO MUCH DAMAGE JUST BUILD STATS CAN'T DIE LITEARLLY 300+ RIGHT CLICKS

Now you're just being facetious. There are very clear and marked differences between the two heroes - among other things the fact that VS has a non-awful strength gain and immense amounts of armour and AS naturally due to her agi gain. Comparing Pugna to VS in this case is outright intellectual dishonesty, as I'm sure you well knew before you even posted it because I know for a fact you're generally intelligent and reasonable.

Core VS definitely isn't 1st pick material, but decrying it as universally terrible like StrawberryZebra just points to a lacking understanding of the hero. It's a perfectly useful core under the right conditions, and it facilitates a lot of the currently run strats very well - never mind the fact that simply showing willingness to play core VS opens up drafting immensely in anteceding games if you can play it successfully because it no longer allows your opponent to assume off the cuff that your VS is a support.

This does mean that core VS is generally bad in pubs because pubs can't play the style that core VS is suited to, and because drafting in pubs generally doesn't matter, but at the very least being capable of playing both core and support VS opens up a lot of options for pro teams right now.

[M1r4g3]

She works in deathball strats, but people pick her for no particular reason at all. Also, many of her wins are still as a support role, and she is struggling to maintain a 50% winrate this patch. As far as the pro scene goes, carry VS isn't working all that well.

I mean, it's like saying that Pugna makes a great right click carry because OMFG 4.0 INT GAIN SO MUCH DAMAGE JUST BUILD STATS CAN'T DIE LITEARLLY 300+ RIGHT CLICKS

Hey people used to build right click carry items on pugna in dota 1 xD
IMO VS works in most cases unless you have a pussy team.

[Lysah]

Even under perfect conditions carry VS winrate isn't particularly impressive. If she requires niche lineups and STILL doesn't even perform all that well, is she really a good carry pick? Wouldn't you prefer a carry who is always good no matter what and wins regardless of the situation to one that is only good in extremely specific lineups and still can't win even when the game suits her?

[StrawberryZebra]

Core VS definitely isn't 1st pick material, but decrying it as universally terrible like StrawberryZebra just points to a lacking understanding of the hero. It's a perfectly useful core under the right conditions, and it facilitates a lot of the currently run strats very well - never mind the fact that simply showing willingness to play core VS opens up drafting immensely in anteceding games if you can play it successfully because it no longer allows your opponent to assume off the cuff that your VS is a support.

I've never argued that Venge can't function as a carry - In fact I do tend to encourage people to pick her when they're looking for easy wins because unlike most supports she can take advantage of any gold she gets to buy offensive items. The combination of solid ganking and high damage make her a great pub stomper. Even if you're slow off the mark and don't get yourself fed, she still has lots of built in utility and no item dependencies so she'll function no matter what.

I do think that you shouldn't pick her as a carry exclusively however, and certainly not put her farming in a safe lane. I see people doing this far too often for my liking, its a huge waste of her potential and one that doesn't allow her to take advantage of her ult, which is her most powerful ability imo. Its far better to have her as a support that can potentially transition over to a more damage dealing role than to have her in a damage role then transition over to a support. The former gives your team extra damage without sacrificing much in the way of utility, where the latter can leave your team's damage too low to win teamfights.

[RobertoCarlos]

I like core venge a lot. Would I go her in a game my life depended on it? Probably not.

All her spells are great. She has a stun. She gets early damage to snowball like Drow and she doesnt need many items to be a serious threat. Plus a lot of people don't expect when you start fucking wailing on them 3-4 shotting them

[PizzaSHARK]

bruh

Core CK is like VS except he doesn't kill himself every time he wants to press R.

Reposition enemies? Got that.

Stun? Got that, too. His is better.

Aura? Naw, ain't got that, but support VS aura is just as good as core VS.

[Deleted]

The real utility of core VS is how it opens up the draft. Any element of your drafting that makes it harder to tell what your lineup is gives you a massive advantage in the pro scene.

If you've not displayed a willingness, whether that be in publicly known-of scrims or in actual matches, to play core VS, opponents can assume your VS picks are support picks. If, on the other hand, you've showed a willingness to play core VS, maybe they spend that ban on an AA or an Oracle because even though you have two heroes that could be supports, they know you've played core VS and they're worried you'll pick another support and do just that - even if core VS wasn't your original intention.

That's why core VS is great.

[PizzaSHARK]

The real utility of core VS is how it opens up the draft. Any element of your drafting that makes it harder to tell what your lineup is gives you a massive advantage in the pro scene.

If you've not displayed a willingness, whether that be in publicly known-of scrims or in actual matches, to play core VS, opponents can assume your VS picks are support picks. If, on the other hand, you've showed a willingness to play core VS, maybe they spend that ban on an AA or an Oracle because even though you have two heroes that could be supports, they know you've played core VS and they're worried you'll pick another support and do just that - even if core VS wasn't your original intention.

That's why core VS is great.

Literally everything here applies to every other hero that can be used in multiple roles.

[Deleted]

Literally everything here applies to every other hero that can be used in multiple roles.

... of which there are relatively few that are currently played in the pro scene, and of which there are no others to my knowledge that can play 1 role OR 5 role - barring perhaps WK, which to put it mildly is not oft picked at current.

There are heroes like SK or Earthshaker that sometimes see play as an offlaner instead of a support, but there are very few heroes in the pool that actively make your opponent ask himself the question "is that his 1 role or his 5 role?"

[PizzaSHARK]

... of which there are relatively few that are currently played in the pro scene, and of which there are no others to my knowledge that can play 1 role OR 5 role - barring perhaps WK, which to put it mildly is not oft picked at current.

There are heroes like SK or Earthshaker that sometimes see play as an offlaner instead of a support, but there are very few heroes in the pool that actively make your opponent ask himself the question "is that his 1 role or his 5 role?"

Most heroes can be played as either, and roles aren't set in stone. A hero could start in a farming position and transition to a supporting position after getting some fast items - Dirge and Omniknight are at their best when used like this.

CK can be played as a roaming support, or he can be played as a carry. So can Luna. So can Sven. So can Leoric. Gondar can be a carry or he can be a support.

There are very few heroes that can't be used effectively in multiple roles. As far as overarching design goals go, it's one thing that Icefrog has unquestionably succeeded at over the past two or three years.

[Crackleslap]

I feel like Venge core has a lot to do with the drafting stage. I largely see it as a fail safe pick. Team picks an early venge, and they may or may not know as of yet whether it's going to be a core or a hard support. Generally over the course of the draft a decision will be made about whether the situation is favorable for venge core or not. Leaving your final pick as a hard carry or hard support and have the other team guessing. She's viable either way, so why not incite bluff to your benefit?

[Deleted]

If you actually genuinely think that BH works as a "carry" and Luna can be played as a roaming support outside of an MMR range where people are so grossly incompetent that mid CM could work, I have to question your fundamental understanding of DotA. They are not viable roles for the heroes at the pro level - simply and uncontestably.

I'll eat my words gladly the day I see either played in this patch, but for now I think it best you put down the pipe and stop smoking whatever is provoking these deranged ideas of yours.

[PizzaSHARK]

and there goes my 5 stack of predictions to some stupid cunt that picks DP - probably the only truly overpowered hero right now and even the pros admit it (casters call her "really good" which is code for "holy fuck this is broken") - and feeds aggressively because he's just truly shit at the game. Of course, he was also the highest MMR by like 300 even though he consistently played as bad as his 2800 buddy. But at least his 2800 buddy was somewhat friendly!

Pudge should also not be able to buy blink dagger. That item is literally cheating on a hero like Pudge. Take a hero that is 100% skill reliant to get things done, and is balanced around that (which is why his hook is probably the single most powerful spell in dota!) then let him buy an item that removes all of those skill requirements. Couldn't possibly be a problem!

Literally so easy a Peruvian could do it.

- - - Updated - - -

If you actually genuinely think that BH works as a "carry" and Luna can be played as a roaming support outside of an MMR range where people are so grossly incompetent that mid CM could work, I have to question your fundamental understanding of DotA. They are not viable roles for the heroes at the pro level - simply and uncontestably.

I'll eat my words gladly the day I see either played in this patch, but for now I think it best you put down the pipe and stop smoking whatever is provoking these deranged ideas of yours.

Gondar has been played as a carry numerous times in the past and is still effective in that role.

Luna is better at supporting than ever before with numerous buffs to Veil, her Agh's being insanely good, etc.

I get the feeling you're gonna turn into another Hermanni. Talks a lot, then it becomes obvious how little the pros actually know and/or innovate, and it's gonna be like someone took the blinders off of ya.

[Deleted]

Show me one game where Gondar was played as any role higher than a 3 role within the last year by a team that could be considered remotely competent, and do the same for Luna as a support. One game of either case that actually worked and wasn't an abject fucking disaster.

I can already tell you on beforehand how this is going to play out: You're not going to be able to because no such games exist, then you're going to try to shift the burden of evidence onto me despite you being the one making absurd claims, and then you're going to ramble on about how pros are clueless to deflect from the fact that you're blowing smoke out of your ass as usual.

[Mellomania]

This probably won't work in pro games
https://my.mixtape.moe/pvvafa.webm