[Megathread] DotA 2

[Drunkenvalley]

You will need BKB either way, or else you will be locked down and eaten alive in a matter of seconds.

A Shadow Blade does not naturally require a BKB. Although you will get eaten alive after ult'ing for sure.

[Hermanni]

I would love for your Dota 2 teams to try out HoN and see how well they would do there, seriously, it would be wonderful.

Why would anyone play that shitty game? Not balanced, not fun, not competitive. There's one case where the absolute best team of HoN switched to Dota 2, and this is how well they did for the first 6+ months: http://dota-academy.com/team/295/ Losing early in tier 2 tournaments sporting a 20% win rate they were the joke of the scene for a pretty long while. Luckily they finally found their style in Dota 2, they're pretty entertaining and Trixi is hot.

[Deleted]

A Shadow Blade does not naturally require a BKB. Although you will get eaten alive after ult'ing for sure.

Exactly, all such heroes who needs BKB, will pick it up regardless of Blink Dagger or Shadowblade.

I couldn't help but notice this list:
http://www.esfiworld.com/dota-2-comp...list-may-2013/

Hermanni, it's not strange at all that you didn't find many battlefuries in the tournament when the heroes who would go them are barely even picked to begin with. Even Shadowfiend is counted as "almost never picked" together with faceless void, spectre and Sven.

Of the most and least played heroes,

[Lysah]

Why would anyone play that shitty game? Not balanced, not fun, not competitive. There's one case where the absolute best team of HoN switched to Dota 2, and this is how well they did for the first 6+ months: http://dota-academy.com/team/295/ Losing early in tier 2 tournaments sporting a 20% win rate they were the joke of the scene for a pretty long while. Luckily they finally found their style in Dota 2, they're pretty entertaining and Trixi is hot.

Too bad they got pubstomped in ti3 against real teams /shrug

[Deleted]

Hey all, today I dled Dota 2 and registered for an own steamacc. Now I like to start playing but I can't connect to the Dota 2 Network, more then 20 minutes of waiting "Connecting to the Dota 2 Network" is annoiying, any tips?

[Drunkenvalley]

Exactly, all such heroes who needs BKB, will pick it up regardless of Blink Dagger or Shadowblade.

We can't have a discussion if you're going to assume a separate 3900g dump. SF doesn't need his BKB to initiate with a Shadow Blade. He does with Blink Dagger.

[Deleted]

Why would anyone play that shitty game? Not balanced, not fun, not competitive. There's one case where the absolute best team of HoN switched to Dota 2, and this is how well they did for the first 6+ months: http://dota-academy.com/team/295/ Losing early in tier 2 tournaments sporting a 20% win rate they were the joke of the scene for a pretty long while. Luckily they finally found their style in Dota 2, they're pretty entertaining and Trixi is hot.

I would argue that it's far more balanced than Dota 2, have you looked at how many items and abilities are left out to RNG in this game? Passive crits, stuns, slows, nearly all of these are left out to the mercy of the dice in Dota, whereas in HoN they have balanced it around cooldowns and other mechanics.

Another case of imbalance in dota 2 is the map itself, Radiants has a clear advantage in some areas by for example being able to stack and pull neutral creeps from the Dire hard spawn to the lane to get it back, something the Dire can not do on the bottom lane. The Radiants can also easily be solo stack three neutral spots at the same time, something that is no longer possible in HoN. The only advantage the Dire has is the location of Roshan.

These differences aren't that major but they are there. I would love for you to come with some actual constructive arguments for why HoN is imbalanced.

- - - Updated - - -

We can't have a discussion if you're going to assume a separate 3900g dump. SF doesn't need his BKB to initiate with a Shadow Blade. He does with Blink Dagger.

SF needs a BKB regardless of initiation or not, if he's going to carry then he can't afford to be locked down and killed, which he will be if he doesn't have BKB...

[Hermanni]

I couldn't help but notice this list:
http://www.esfiworld.com/dota-2-comp...list-may-2013/

Those lists used to be good but the guy making them got lazy. If you read carefully, it says 'May 2013.' If you followed the scene at all, you'd know that every International completely shakes up that thing they call 'the metagame.' So it's kind of old information.

And I used to follow DotA scene for a bit, HoN scene for all the time I played and I followed Dota 2 pro scene very closely from the first international until recently. I remember most trends there have been in Dota 2, such as Riki actually being a very popular pick like 3-5 months before TI2.

[Deleted]

If you're too afraid to get a gem just because you might die, you are bound to die. As I said previously, it's usually worth getting a gem to counter the enemies wards alone, countering SB is a bonus.

idk I'd almost never entrust a gem to a support unless the enemy has literally no surprise factor available.

Also, I would love it if you could stop calling the items by their Dota 1 names, this is Dota 2 is it not? I'm not using the HoN names am I?

Difference being that Lothar's and Shadow Blade are the exact same items. Assassin's Shroud is different in more ways than one.

If you're not able to do an ulti initiation regardless of item then how does SB help?

Rightclick damage?

That is also a result of bad positioning thus bad play, few items helps with that.

Getting caught by blink Requiem is bad positioning.
etc etc

I never assumed you would. Having wards up however allows you to see the movement of the SF, it's not like it makes him invisible permanently, and it's also not like he knows exactly where you have placed your wards, if you're smart about it.

Yeah but weren't wardbitches supposed to be all-knowing so you'd get stuck in a cycle where nobody has any wards up ever.
Even so you can only have 2 wards up at once unless you save up.

It goes to show that you won't be able to get a ghost scepter all that easily.

Maybe the stacking thing but unless you can triplestack camps you can just run over to whatever one you didn't stack and clear that one. It's not -that- hard to jungle.

They didn't lose due to the supporter being underfarmed as there is no such thing.

*because the support wasn't rich
Are you seriously gonna semantics me on something like this.

http://dota2.gamepedia.com/Role

Wow, you are. By now you're just trying to be condescending for the sake of being condescending.

If they lost then it was most likely due to the fact that the opposing team played a better hand. Their supports also got more farm due to this, and therefor ended up with better items. But their supports getting more items wasn't the reason for them winning.

No I'm literally talking ~5k difference in gold graph.
But one team had it all on one guy and the other didn't.

[Volitar]

You can't buy a blink dagger on pudge in dota, game is ruined.

[Drunkenvalley]

SF needs a BKB regardless of initiation or not, if he's going to carry then he can't afford to be locked down and killed, which he will be if he doesn't have BKB...

Don't come here and make up rules like that sort of bullshit. Let's put it more plainly in English, since you're not following class: BKB. Blink Dagger. Shadow Blade. You get one of those. Not two. One. Which are you going to use?

Go on.

[Hermanni]

I could write pages upon pages about the 'imbalances' between Dire and Radiant, there are plenty of distinct and indistinct advantages. However if you look at http://dota-academy.com/herolist/ you'll see that Radiant has more won competitive games, a whopping 98 game advantage out of 4500 games even people consider Dire's Roshan advantage to be the most imba thing on the map.

Stacking is actually a very small factor, heavy HoN-style stacking was a thing around last DHW but teams quickly figured out how to counter it and that fad pretty much died out.

[rylangel]

Hey all, today I dled Dota 2 and registered for an own steamacc. Now I like to start playing but I can't connect to the Dota 2 Network, more then 20 minutes of waiting "Connecting to the Dota 2 Network" is annoiying, any tips?

Try restarting the game. They've been having issues lately and it's the only thing I have found that works.

[Deleted]

idk I'd almost never entrust a gem to a support unless the enemy has literally no surprise factor available.

Then the support isn't doing it right, it's not like you would run up alone somewhere with no vision and unaware of where the enemy is. By the time the support gets a gem you're primarily focusing on stacking and being part of ganks and team fights.

Difference being that Lothar's and Shadow Blade are the exact same items. Assassin's Shroud is different in more ways than one.

But they don't have the same name, Lothar's is the Dota 1 name, hence it's outdated. Using it only causes confusion.

Rightclick damage?

You would get more damage out of a different item if that's your goal.

Yeah but weren't wardbitches supposed to be all-knowing so you'd get stuck in a cycle where nobody has any wards up ever.
Even so you can only have 2 wards up at once unless you save up.

Their goal is to find and eliminate the enemies wards, and to place yours where the other won't find it. Doesn't mean you will have a 100 % downtime of their wards, and they won't have a 100 % downtime on yours. Even if SF somehow makes it past your wards, the rest of their team shouldn't.

Maybe the stacking thing but unless you can triplestack camps you can just run over to whatever one you didn't stack and clear that one. It's not -that- hard to jungle.

That would be taking the farm from your carry/carries, so that's not an option...

*because the support wasn't rich
Are you seriously gonna semantics me on something like this.



Wow, you are. By now you're just trying to be condescending for the sake of being condescending.

Not really, just proving a point.

[Pantelija]

Shadow Blade works in the highest MMR. I get page 1 games on a daily basis when I solo queue and Shadow Blade isn't uncommon.

Post dotabuff profile.

[Deleted]

Then the support isn't doing it right, it's not like you would run up alone somewhere with no vision and unaware of where the enemy is.

And if the enemy makes sure you're unaware? You're just gonna give up map control because they're standing in fog?

You would get more damage out of a different item if that's your goal.

Hence why I said situation X as opposed to game X. It's like telling me I can't use a Force Staff to initiate because I bought it to kite people so I should have Blink.

Their goal is to find and eliminate the enemies wards, and to place yours where the other won't find it. Doesn't mean you will have a 100 % downtime of their wards, and they won't have a 100 % downtime on yours. Even if SF somehow makes it past your wards, the rest of their team shouldn't.

Wait what if they know you have a gem.
And they smoke and kill you when you go dewarding.
There, countered your counter.

That would be taking the farm from your carry/carries, so that's not an option...

Carry is standing in lane lasthitting, time is 8:53.
SD stacks a camp and runs over to another camp, clears it, time is 9:40.
Carry is still casually killing creeps.
SD stacks again and the camp he killed respawns.
Carry didn't notice a thing.

[Hermanni]

Not really, just proving a point.

Sorry to break it to you but I don't think you've proven anything so far. All you do is make arguments on a basis like 'shadowblade sucks because skilled players counter it', there's no examples, no statistics, no competitive insight, no real situations used as a base for an argument. It's all just rambling.

If you want a TL;DR of what I've written before it's pretty much me coming into this thread being all arrogant hot shit and ex HoN player telling everyone Shadowblade is stupid easy to counter and how I consider enemies going SB giving me free wins and how SB has no place in competitive environment. And I was getting told off by a bunch of people, Lysah especially advocating how SB is borderline imba and a great pick up on most heroes but I wouldn't hear any of that.

Fast forward a year or so and you see Lothars in most pro games and it all starts to make sense to me, and it's hard to argue when even pros struggle to keep invisible heroes in check and maintain map control against them. And on a completely unrelated note N'aix is also kind of a funny hero, pros used to say he is just a pub stomper and easy to counter in a real game but suddenly he is the top carry in the scene for what 8 months straight.

And I'm not going to go back and look for quotes because quite frankly looking at that shit would probably make me feel quite embarrassed, and I feel embarrassed enough for you as it is. Up to you, really.

[PizzaSHARK]

Not really, just proving a point.

Except people have been pointing out that you're wrong for, like, the entire past two pages of posts.

Go away, please.

[Deleted]

Post dotabuff profile.

If you want to see page 1 games to see if what I say is true, here: http://dotabuff.com/players/19757254.

SF needs a BKB regardless of initiation or not, if he's going to carry then he can't afford to be locked down and killed, which he will be if he doesn't have BKB...

Shadow Blade or Blink comes online earlier than either of those two combined with a BKB. I don't understand what you don't get. Shadow Blade is a good item. It allows you to farm enemy jungle and split-push perfectly. It also helps you escape ganks occasionally. You do get off your Requiem with Shadow Blade, maybe not always but more often than not. Have you even played at high MMR in Dota 2? Have you seen pro games where they go SB? No support can ward entire map.

And on a completely unrelated note N'aix is also kind of a funny hero, pros used to say he is just a pub stomper and easy to counter in a real game but suddenly he is the top carry in the scene for what 8 months straight.

Naix got buffed on his rage to last for ages.

[Pantelija]

If you want to see page 1 games to see if what I say is true, here: http://dotabuff.com/players/19757254.

I want to see this White Whale ("Shadow Blade works in the highest MMR. I get page 1 games on a daily basis when I solo queue and Shadow Blade isn't uncommon.") everyone seems to be talking about but nobody has seen it except Ahab.