[Megathread] DotA 2

[Hermanni]

I want some of what Icefrog smokes when he does hero balancing.

This joke was almost funny before the last 20 times you told it. And you gotta work pretty hard to keep DP up 100% of the time with a half-decent creep.

[PizzaSHARK]

This joke was almost funny before the last 20 times you told it. And you gotta work pretty hard to keep DP up 100% of the time with a half-decent creep.

That would be a problem if Clinkz was a hero that was manfighting all the time and not an opportunist. But when you have a permanent invis that also functions as a haste rune, why should you ever engage when it's not on your terms?

[Deleted]

I'm going to make a guess here but I think PizzaSHARK comes here to whine on heroes being OP after losing to them.

[Drunkenvalley]

Sneaking suspicion that might be the case.

[Deleted]

I never said Midas was good in pubs. Actually I said it's a bad pickup in pubs if you need to carry your team.

The reason TA falls off is exactly because of lack of items. She spends her time running around fighting then of course she will fall off compared to a guy that is farming. However, if TA goes Midas and farms while still having great potential to fight she will have an item advantage and that's when she is the scariest.

A TA with Drum/Treads/Yasha/BKB that runs at supports or carries mid game is way less scary than a TA with Treads/Midas/Desolator/BKB/Crystalys running at supports or carries.

If you see a TA like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipOn7KFuGic. Don't you think Rox.KiS were afraid? And that's a TA with 5 death to her name and only 6 kills. She is still the most scary hero on that map 36 minutes in.

If those builds were of similar net worth, perhaps I would see your point, but the fact of the matter is that your hypothetical Midas/Desolator build has almost 6k net worth on the Treads Yasha build. Of course it's scarier - what hero isn't scarier with 6k extra net worth? Midas alone won't net you 6k extra net worth unless you somehow manage to sit on it for an hour-long game. RTZ being the scariest hero on the map at 36 minutes on TA is a testament to RTZ being perhaps the premiere farming mid player in the game currently, not a testament to Midas being particularly awesome on Templar Assassin.

I think essentially my gripe with Midas TA is that if you are far enough ahead/so much better than your opposition that you can get away with Midas on TA, you could get away with simply rushing Desolator instead. Midas is just a greedy item, plain and simple, and quite frankly I strongly dislike it on any hero that doesn't look to go very late and needs a way to stay ahead on farm. An ill-advised Midas is the easiest way to throw a perfectly winnable game if you buy it on the wrong hero, whereas it is much harder to go wrong with Midas on say, a Morphling.

[PizzaSHARK]

I'm going to make a guess here but I think PizzaSHARK comes here to whine on heroes being OP after losing to them.

Only the ones that are actually OP. Most heroes aren't, but the ones that are are blindingly obvious.

[Deleted]

Sneaking suspicion that might be the case.

LOL

EDIT: Upon further investigation:

Just want to say, Icefrog is honestly really fucking retarded at balancing games. Axe with 4 HP/sec regen naked, NS with an ulti that reduces vision of towers and fucking WARDS by 25% with 2/3 uptime, god knows what else.

It cannot possibly be this hard to balance a game.

http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/820675738

LOLOLOL.

@PraisetheSun

You don't realize it but going Midas usually promotes a more farm oriented sytle of play which will net you more gold in general. Midas ~ Drums, Treads = Treads, Yasha = Crystalys, BKB = BKB and then I just added Desolator to that build. I'd say that is reasonable to be able to farm one item more if you go Midas and farm more. Midas is an item to pressure the enemy to do something while you can just chill back and capitalize on their mistakes and get ahead.

[Deleted]

LOL

@PraisetheSun

You don't realize it but going Midas usually promotes a more farm oriented sytle of play which will net you more gold in general. Midas ~ Drums, Treads = Treads, Yasha = Crystalys, BKB = BKB and then I just added Desolator to that build. I'd say that is reasonable to be able to farm one item more if you go Midas and farm more. Midas is an item to pressure the enemy to do something while you can just chill back and capitalize on their mistakes and get ahead.

Yes, and I suppose that means your opponent will simply let you sit back with your 2k item that gives you a whopping 30 attack speed and let you farm those extra 6k? Any team with the slightest lick of sense will punish greed if they can, and if they can't punish the sort of greed that is Midas TA, then quite frankly you were probably going to win the game anyway.

You can say what you want, Ariadne, but it's not going to change my general distaste towards Midas, and my absolute distaste for it on heroes that have significant relative strength in the early game. I'm not trying to be standoffish here, or claim that Midas is unilaterally a terrible item, but I don't care if RTZ wins a game on TA with 6 slots worth of Midases to take the TI5 crown - I just don't agree that it fits the hero's strengths at all.

[Charge me Doctor]

There is very little that you can do against TA with midas to stop her from farming. Very little.

[Longview]

Wagamama, who has been above 7k MMR, and got there by spamming TA

didnt he get there by spamming disgusting earth spirit

[Deleted]

Yes, and I suppose that means your opponent will simply let you sit back with your 2k item that gives you a whopping 30 attack speed and let you farm those extra 6k? Any team with the slightest lick of sense will punish greed if they can, and if they can't punish the sort of greed that is Midas TA, then quite frankly you were probably going to win the game anyway.

You can say what you want, Ariadne, but it's not going to change my general distaste towards Midas, and my absolute distaste for it on heroes that have significant relative strength in the early game. I'm not trying to be standoffish here, or claim that Midas is unilaterally a terrible item, but I don't care if RTZ wins a game on TA with 6 slots worth of Midases to take the TI5 crown - I just don't agree that it fits the hero's strengths at all.

That is exactly my point? You are pressuring the enemy to doing something by just buying the damn item. If they manage to punish you then you made a mistake to go the item because every time you buy a Midas you need to think about if you can get away with it or not.

Well, I've shown you examples of where she is strong with Midas but if you can't see it then I can't change your opinion.

[PizzaSHARK]

There is very little that you can do against TA with midas to stop her from farming. Very little.

Pick someone with a reliable dot? 80% of dealing with TA is getting around Refraction.

[Charge me Doctor]

Pick someone with a reliable dot? 80% of dealing with TA is getting around Refraction.

But how you know she is getting midas from draft phase? Anyways, even if you push her out of mid lane, she just goes to woods and creeps here, thanks to bottle and psi blades. Some very aggressive playstyle from whole team (read:supports) is needed to deny her getting midas kills from woods

[PizzaSHARK]

But how you know she is getting midas from draft phase? Anyways, even if you push her out of mid lane, she just goes to woods and creeps here, thanks to bottle and psi blades. Some very aggressive playstyle from whole team (read:supports) is needed to deny her getting midas kills from woods

If it's a pub just assume she is, almost everyone goes midas in pubs.

[Charge me Doctor]

If it's a pub just assume she is, almost everyone goes midas in pubs.

Oh well then, you are the best Kunka in the world then al land your torrents 100% of time. Even this won't really stop her from creeping

[PizzaSHARK]

Oh well then, you are the best Kunka in the world then al land your torrents 100% of time. Even this won't really stop her from creeping

Huh? Why would you choose Kunkka to go up against TA? If I wanted to counter lane her, I'd probably go with Axe, honestly.

[Charge me Doctor]

Huh? Why would you choose Kunkka to go up against TA? If I wanted to counter lane her, I'd probably go with Axe, honestly.

Well, any hero with superior range will work against TA, because early in the game she doesn't get that many levels in refraction. Tidebringer allows him to eat refraction from range, torrent deals damage multiple times and iirc eats all stacks of refraction rank 4. I would go with Puck personally, or Sniper. Once i played Zeus against TA and one chain lightening + passive ate away both his refraction charges forcing him to rank it further up and delay meld. I lost it tho, fucking roaming earth shaker

[PizzaSHARK]

Well, any hero with superior range will work against TA, because early in the game she doesn't get that many levels in refraction. Tidebringer allows him to eat refraction from range, torrent deals damage multiple times and iirc eats all stacks of refraction rank 4. I would go with Puck personally, or Sniper. Once i played Zeus against TA and one chain lightening + passive ate away both his refraction charges forcing him to rank it further up and delay meld. I lost it tho, fucking roaming earth shaker

Puck seems like he'd have a tough time winning the lane, but I guess he'd also be pretty safe from TA and wouldn't lose the lane either.

I always thought TA typically maxed Refraction first and then Meld.

[Deleted]

Puck seems like he'd have a tough time winning the lane, but I guess he'd also be pretty safe from TA and wouldn't lose the lane either.

I always thought TA typically maxed Refraction first and then Meld.

If Charge Me Doctor plays with TA players that don't max Refraction first, his MMR is much worse than I thought.

A TA that actually knows how to play the hero will almost always max Refraction first, barring extremely niche situations. Those heroes he's talking about; Kunkka, Zeus, Puck, etc - they all get completely shat on in lane by a TA of equal skill, because none of them can trade harass effectively. TA can just sit behind her own creep wave and Psi Blade them in the face with not a care in the world.

Edit: The only heroes I can think of that really deal effectively with TA are Razor, Viper and Venomancer. The matchup against OD is roughly even - OD can prevent her from ever casting Refraction by gobbling up all her mana, but TA will win the harass battle since OD doesn't usually skill his Q and therefore can't trade harass without drawing creep aggro. OD vs TA is basically going to come down to rune control, methinks.

[LiiLoSNK]

sylla and maybe like a huskar could probably handle a ta of equal skill. axe too if both equally low skilled.

also i didn't know there were ta's that didnt max refraction first under any situation