[Megathread] DotA 2

[Lysah]

Biggest issue with broodmother is that her lings get zero collision now. It's fully possible to stack 40 of them on the same spot which makes it fully possible to have them all hit someone at the exact same time. Good luck being a support CM in a lane where brood can instant hit you for half your health and then cast spawn spiderlings for the other half. This not only makes her impossible to kick out of a lane, she will flat out kill most heroes early game now.

[EqualWin]

Broodmother is still crazy good. Haste rune plus regen bonuses anytime she's in web, quick fade time. So many people play her wrong and skip her ridiculous passive until later in the game, I can't imagine her losing her lane if you put points into it early. Glad that hero ain't in CM right now... she's such a fuckin mess. At this point I almost think webs should be destroyable targets with invisibility or something for the sheer benefits they give her, especially since they're permanent.

her passive is "op" yeah but the reason people dont take it is because web and this q are even more useful, you need to web everywhere, and ur q spiders are insane, stack a bunch of them, send them to lane and you pretty much kill the supports in 2-3 secs and spawn more spiders since u'll finish them with ur q.

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lina is a decent counter to pa. she rekt her so bad, at least from my experience (myself as lina, and seeing pa in my team getting rekt by enemy linas)

[PizzaSHARK]

PA vs Lina is 100% positioning and timing. PA will absolutely destroy Lina if she's out of position, but a PA can't just jump into the middle of a fight if Lina hasn't used Laguna Blade yet and isn't otherwise disabled and unable to use it.

I'd probably pick Panda, honestly. Drunken Haze fucks with PA so much. Panda will dominate PA if she's sent mid, Panda split is very strong early game to help against aggressive PA drafts, before PA gets magic immunity he can just take her out of the fight with a cyclone and focus on killing her teammates. Between splits, he can just spam the fuck out of Drunken Haze at her, the miss chance and slow combined will limit her effectiveness.

(Assuming we're talking about picking a mid hero to fight against a PA team.)



So people are still talking about EE's 2x RoP build, and how +6 armor is just godly in lane.

It fucking isn't. The only reason you should buy two Ring of Protection is if you're getting basilius AND tranquils in lane. Even if your hero has 0 base armor, you gain more effective HP/time to live from RoP+gauntlets+branch for the same 400 gold.

Using three examples from the three most commonly picked supports right now, and being super generous and assuming you're trading hits with Treant for some reason (say it's 100 attack damage.) Skywrath Mage has 0 base armor. VS has 4 base armor. Ogre basically has 7 base armor.

Skywrath will have 0%/15%/25% DR from 0/3/6 armor. He will take 100/85/75 damage. Damage difference of 10 between 3 armor and 6 armor.

VS will have 20%/30%/38% DR from 4/7/10 armor. She will take 80/70/62 damage. Damage difference of 8 between 7 armor and 10 armor.

Ogre will have 30%/38%/44% DR from 7/10/13 armor, because Valve is really good at balance. He will take 70/62/56 damage. Damage difference of 6 between 10 armor and 13 armor.


On the other hand, if you spend that 200 gold on gauntlets+branch, you gain 76 HP. In a realistic scenario (enemies are swinging for 55-65 damage before reductions, not fucking 100), you can probably soak two more hits before dying with that bonus HP, or at least one more nuke. Buying a second Ring of Protection will not give enough additional damage reduction to make any sort of noticeable difference; it will provide about as much average damage reduction as a fucking ranged Stout Shield will provide (which is like 5-6 damage reduced.)

So why the fuck are these idiots acting like EE has discovered some strange secret? It's fucking Midas CM all over again.

[StrawberryZebra]

I'd probably pick Panda, honestly. Drunken Haze fucks with PA so much. Panda will dominate PA if she's sent mid, Panda split is very strong early game to help against aggressive PA drafts, before PA gets magic immunity he can just take her out of the fight with a cyclone and focus on killing her teammates. Between splits, he can just spam the fuck out of Drunken Haze at her, the miss chance and slow combined will limit her effectiveness.

Panda is strong against right clickers in general, his skill set is focused around dueling them almost exclusively. Even without his ult, he's got a great chance of beating PA in a straight fight before she has an MKB. Though later on it'll probably come down to who gets lucky first.

There are lots of other good choices that aren't as luck dependent, even if you leave aside the obvious people who can blow her up instantly. Centaur, Bristleback and Lich can bully her out of lane with very little trouble. Razor is fantastic for keeping her damage in check, doesn't care about BKB and can make her laning very difficult. Viper can bully her out of lane easy, make getting last hits an absolute pain in the neck with his passive and can cripple her damage through a BKB too. Bane too can both shut her down early game and lock her down through her BKB, not to mention he's practically guaranteed to kill her the second he hits level 6, and every time his ult is up afterwards too.

[PizzaSHARK]

Bane's not that great of a solution because it's pretty easy to interrupt his ulti, and other than that all he really has is Enfeeble. Rexxar is a much better choice; his ult is more reliable, scales incredibly well with Agh's, hawk gives vision so people can avoid the PA lurking at the fringes of the fight and waiting for the right time to jump in, and boar venom is a strong slow that goes through BKB.

It's also pretty much impossible to bully PA out of lane since she can always just flip daggers to guarantee a modest amount of farm and XP, which is the only reason offlane PA and solo mid PA work. Dagger definitely needs to lose crits and should have its range scale, like 750/900/1050/1200. 1200 range at lvl 1 is pretty ridiculous and makes her way too safe of a lane.

[StrawberryZebra]

It's also pretty much impossible to bully PA out of lane since she can always just flip daggers to guarantee a modest amount of farm and XP, which is the only reason offlane PA and solo mid PA work. Dagger definitely needs to lose crits and should have its range scale, like 750/900/1050/1200. 1200 range at lvl 1 is pretty ridiculous and makes her way too safe of a lane.

I don't think there's a single hero in the game who can prevent PA farming with her dagger. Its an excellent fall back plan for her, but at least she is losing some farm. You can push her off the creep waves and get her to the point where she is forced to throw daggers quickly with a Hero like Viper or Lich who can keep constant pressure on her in a solo lane. They might not be able to outright kill her, but forcing her to go back to base before she gets her bottle is a possibility.
If she's low enough diving her can be an option for tankier heroes, but the timing has to be right, otherwise she's just going to blink away to a creep. Otherwise your only real options are to wait for her to make a mistake and kill her, or bring a friend to help. Killing her in a dual or tri-lane is much easier, but that goes for just about every Hero.

I agree, daggers make PA a bit too safe of a laner right now.

[EqualWin]

So why the fuck are these idiots acting like EE has discovered some strange secret? It's fucking Midas CM all over again.

I dont think any1 is like oh EE invented x2 RoP, but obviously its a "trend" because of c9 started doing it. I find x2 rop really good I haven't done the math, but I'm sure EE did it and for some reason they use it, bone7 usually get x2 bop as well on bat instead of fkn boots. Rtz get x2 rop on storm . then again they barely go for tranq and basi (they might get one of them)

stout shield cost more than a ring and its 50%? 10 dmg block for range. a rop still better?


the lina games I played vs pa, i think i mid vs her once (it get easier and easier with lvls, by just hitting ur Q she'll be low, she can't do anything except spam dagger ) and at lvl 6 pa is food for lina. but most of my games I jungle. even in late game, she'll have 5 sec bkb you can sell ur aghs(I havent done this i usually get sheep and refresher lol) get eb and 1 shot her. I admit she can jump on you and 1 shot as well, but it isnt easy since u'll have phase/travels-euls-blink-ghost scepter/bkb

[PizzaSHARK]

The theory is that 2x RoP makes your regen "more efficient", but that seems like a load of shit. Against attacks of 55-70 damage, that second RoP will be reducing damage taken by like 4-7... which is about how much a ranged Stout Shield protects (~53% chance to block 10 damage, so about 5-6 dmg block average) for. Melee stout shield is unquestionably better.

Buying 76 HP with the same 200 gold means you can soak another 2 or even 3 attacks before dying, while you'd have to get hit like 11-12 times before the extra damage reduction from 3 more armor reaches that same amount of "damage prevented."

I think EE or whoever started doing it first got fixated on the idea that tangos heal more of your HP proportionately if you don't buy health, and forgot that without that health buffer, you're a fuck of a lot more likely to die. How much damage does an average gank do inside a single stun? Usually at least 300-400 right? That's easily 60% or more of an average support's HP, 3 more armor won't protect you from that. But increasing your HP by 15-20% might.

[veiledy0]

There was some theorycrafting on reddit that pointed out that double RoP is pure bullshit and doesn't even come close to Stout Shield. Never do what eternalenvy does, he's just an ugly asian kid.

[EqualWin]

well no one said x2 rop is better than stout shield for melee heroes lmao.

6 armor x 400 gold (or 200 since you're going to sell them at some point)

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There was some theorycrafting on reddit that pointed out that double RoP is pure bullshit and doesn't even come close to Stout Shield. Never do what eternalenvy does, he's just an ugly asian kid.

do you have the link? i'd lke to read

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There was some theorycrafting on reddit that pointed out that double RoP is pure bullshit and doesn't even come close to Stout Shield. Never do what eternalenvy does, he's just an ugly asian kid.

do you have the link? i'd lke to read

[veiledy0]

http://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/commen...tionnew_trend/

Another thing is, the lower the enemy damage is, the better Stout Shield gets, and this is important for carries early on because of farming the jungle, where the damage of some creeps is almost fully blocked.

[EqualWin]

1 RoP 15.3% armor reduction , x2 its 26% good enough for me in early game for heroes like necro tho I barely play range carries. melee carries obviously you go for stout shield.



I saw that post myself, and if it was legit like you said proving x2 rop is bad i think it would get upvotes, sadly the OP didnt even know how shout shield works.

[Deleted]

I'm quite sure Envy only goes double RoP on ranged heroes. That reddit post is also incorrect. Stout Shield uses PRD so it's more like 50% which translates to 5 damage block on average for 250 gold against around 7 damage block for 200 gold. And seeing as most hero damage is above the 45 he gave as an example RoP only gets stronger because damage block doesn't scale. Even at 45 damage, RoP is better for ranged. No one is arguing that stout shield is worse than RoP on melee heroes.

With that said, I don't like double RoP in pubs. You don't need that damage mitigation on ranged heroes unless you got some really serious and good supports and facing really good offlaner.

[veiledy0]

Phantom Assassin OP, confirmed by anonymous enemies. I love these people.

Double RoP is nothing but a waste of gold imho. I can't think of a single ranged carry that would transfer both of them into an item. I'd rather buy another Salve, or a Magic Stick in 99/100 pub situations.

[EqualWin]

radiance -> manta->difusal-> refresher spectre is insane.

[PizzaSHARK]

I'm quite sure Envy only goes double RoP on ranged heroes. That reddit post is also incorrect. Stout Shield uses PRD so it's more like 50% which translates to 5 damage block on average for 250 gold against around 7 damage block for 200 gold. And seeing as most hero damage is above the 45 he gave as an example RoP only gets stronger because damage block doesn't scale. Even at 45 damage, RoP is better for ranged. No one is arguing that stout shield is worse than RoP on melee heroes.

With that said, I don't like double RoP in pubs. You don't need that damage mitigation on ranged heroes unless you got some really serious and good supports and facing really good offlaner.

I don't even see how it's useful in pro games. What ranged hero is going to be sustaining that much regular, consistent autoattack harass? Supports aren't gonna be trading hits with other supports or offlaners often enough to really justify spending 200 gold on armor instead of stats or consumables (or a stick), and cores are gonna be better off spending the gold on useful stuff, not something they're gonna sell 8 minutes later.

[EqualWin]

whats a good slark build? I'm trying to learn him, pounce are harder than hooks to hit Kappa. all i know is, pounce (miss it)->dark pact, ulti, then dark pact and usually i kill people. but I'm sitll awful

[Sorcereria]

Get venom orb, also you can precast dark pact before pounce to shove of seconds before next one available.

[EqualWin]

Get venom orb, also you can precast dark pact before pounce to shove of seconds before next one available.

yeah I do get oov, oov aquila-drums treads SB or blink then idk there are so many items syy/basher/skady/maelstrom/bkb if needed

[Keldarin]

I tend to either wait with the pounce until I can't miss it. Either by being upon them or pouncing them when they can't go any other way.
Don't pounce to initiate, unless it's the only means of initiation you got. Use pounce to stop people from running away.