[OFFICIAL] MoP Beta Build Changes Discussion Thread

[binkenstein]

reading you Mists of Pandaria 5.0 Elemental Shaman Primer I was very exited that indeed they got it work to make every talent in tier lvl 60 balanced to each other. Also that we get a stat priority change depending on skills and glyphs. So we will more differ from ele to ele which is very nice
Ok more work for the sim guys...

Yeah, just worked out my initial test set is going to be 46 combinations, and that's before I start looking at L90 talent specific gear sets too.

[Deleted]

Let's go down a list, without trying to get all 1:1 with abilities because that's pointless and silly. I'm not going to include CCs/slows/roots, but I will include movement bursts like Thunderstorm and Blink. I know CCs and slows and roots are important, but the lists would get huge. I WILL include Stuns, though.

Elemental:
Thunderstorm
Grounding Totem
Astral Shift/Nature's Guardian/SBT
Unleash Fury:Rockbiter/PE: Earth Elemental
Innate off-healing
Wind Shear\
Ancestral Guidance/HTT
Tremor Totem
Capacitor Totem


Mage (any spec, no spec has a defensive tool innately):
Blink
Counterspell
Ice Block
Deep Freeze
Alter Time
Temporal Shield/Blazing Speed/Ice Barrier
Greater Invis/Cauterize/Cold Snap

Sorry, not seeing any oppressive amount of defense on the part of Mages, compared to Elemental.

You're not?
A list like this is pretty silly because what a defensive ability actually is, is subjective. I'm not sure if I agree with Tremor being a defensive ability if purge/spell steal isn't because it can straight out remove an offensive ability or remove a buff that boosts offensive abilities. I know both mages and shamans got purge/spell steal, but it's just to prove that your list is unclear and not capable of providing a legit comparison.

With that said; Ice Block, Blink and Ice Barrier is by far what makes mages ahead on the defensive part. Blink is basically stun immunity, Ice block is an oh-shit button, that will stop all the pressure you put on the team(given mage is the target, and the only one with low HP), and more or less reset pressure. With cold snap now being a 3 min CD, it's a relatively frequent CD that used to be 8 min, and can now be used to counter opponents CDs, rather than just contributing to the "was that his second block? Okay, no more blocks". It can even be used whilst being affected by any kind of CC, the only way to prevent Ice Block is by locking frost school. And Ice Barrier is just a strong, frequent shield that is really strong. It's not even an ability you have to use when you see inc damage, but just click it when ever it's ready since the duration is 1 min and the CD is 25 sec.

So as you can see, mages consistency + oh-shit tools is in a spot where an elemental shaman would never be able to compete. In a scenario where the elemental shaman gets stunned and bursted, there is literally nothing to do(other than thunder storm), other than pray that your healer can keep you up. while a mage would just blink and root, or even Ice Block if needed. Combined with how strong their shield is(which btw makes up for the fact that we more armor) I cannot see why you wont agree with the fact that mages are in a better spot when it comes to defensive part. I know that our viability in arena is going to depend on the entire package, but atm I cannot see what we have that compensates, and make us just as good or better than a mage

[Endus]

You're not?
A list like this is pretty silly because what a defensive ability actually is, is subjective. I'm not sure if I agree with Tremor being a defensive ability if purge/spell steal isn't because it can straight out remove an offensive ability or remove a buff that boosts offensive abilities. I know both mages and shamans got purge/spell steal, but it's just to prove that your list is unclear and not capable of providing a legit comparison.

Of course it is. It isn't possible to do a comparison that is both clear, concise, and legitimate. Any 2 of the 3, sure, but not all 3; if you go into enough detail for clarity in a thorough enough manner to be legitimate, it will not be concise.

That wasn't the point. The point was people make up distinctions, exactly as I had to for that particular list there, but they artificially draw the lines on their lists in such a way as to exclude the majority of the Shaman's tools. It's a deliberately unfair pattern of argument.

The point was never that Elemental Shaman are somehow "better" defensively than Mages. Mages have great defenses. I think that lists shows that. But Elemental has a lot of powerful tools too. They aren't the same as a Mage's, because we're not Mages. Everyone has different ability layouts. I absolutely don't agree that the MoP Elemental ability lists leaves us shortchanged for defenses. On the contrary, I look at that list and I see a heck of a lot of strength. Better than everyone else? Probably not. Strong enough to be a contender? That's my argument. The Shaman portfolio is a bit more active than most classes; you can't just freak out and jab your panic button when you screw up like a Mage hitting Iceblock. I don't see that as a negative, though, it just means we have a higher skill quotient, and I'm absolutely fine with that (and I'm not saying mages are "easier", either, just that Iceblock is an "easy" defensive tool).

[Deleted]

he Shaman portfolio is a bit more active than most classes; you can't just freak out and jab your panic button when you screw up like a Mage hitting Iceblock. I don't see that as a negative, though, it just means we have a higher skill quotient, and I'm absolutely fine with that (and I'm not saying mages are "easier", either, just that Iceblock is an "easy" defensive tool).

I'd say specifically the elemental spec has a higher skill 'range' in the way that there is a greater difference between a bad and a good elemental shaman compared to mages. But I don't think we have higher potential than a mage, we just have a harder and more cumbersome way to get to do what they do. If I compare a few things; Frost Shock VS frost nova(and pet nova for frost). It's not that Frost Shock is any better than mages tools to root but if we fiddle out a way to manage our shock's CDs, we then get to single target root, which has even a shorter duration than a mage's root(way shorter CD though). Capacitor Totem VS Deep Freeze. I can somewhat agree with you on these two, Capacitor totem has a higher potential since it's an aoe stun, but then again it's very hard to predict where players are going to stand in 5 sec(or force them in range), and it gets destroyed if you auto attack it. It's viable though to pick the Totemic Projection talent and play around with moving it to another location. I still find the 'skill requirement' too high for it to be just as good as deep freeze, that has even got a 15 sec shorter CD than capacitor totem.
And say that you actually predict a swap onto you and pop Astral Shift before they land the stun, I still don't think 40% dmg reduction for 6 sec is better than Ice block.

So yea, again I know the bigger picture isn't considered here, my point with these examples is just that we have a harder way to achieve the things you want in PvP, and mages get it straight away aka more I-win buttons. I don't want elemental to become like that, but it's frustrating that it's going to make us 'not viable' or less viable.

[Deleted]

I'd say specifically the elemental spec has a higher skill 'range' in the way that there is a greater difference between a bad and a good elemental shaman compared to mages. But I don't think we have higher potential than a mage, we just have a harder and more cumbersome way to get to do what they do. If I compare a few things; Frost Shock VS frost nova(and pet nova for frost). It's not that Frost Shock is any better than mages tools to root but if we fiddle out a way to manage our shock's CDs, we then get to single target root, which has even a shorter duration than a mage's root(way shorter CD though). Capacitor Totem VS Deep Freeze. I can somewhat agree with you on these two, Capacitor totem has a higher potential since it's an aoe stun, but then again it's very hard to predict where players are going to stand in 5 sec(or force them in range), and it gets destroyed if you auto attack it. It's viable though to pick the Totemic Projection talent and play around with moving it to another location. I still find the 'skill requirement' too high for it to be just as good as deep freeze, that has even got a 15 sec shorter CD than capacitor totem.
And say that you actually predict a swap onto you and pop Astral Shift before they land the stun, I still don't think 40% dmg reduction for 6 sec is better than Ice block.

So yea, again I know the bigger picture isn't considered here, my point with these examples is just that we have a harder way to achieve the things you want in PvP, and mages get it straight away aka more I-win buttons. I don't want elemental to become like that, but it's frustrating that it's going to make us 'not viable' or less viable.

welcome to world of magecraft.

[Nebria]

welcome to world of magecraft.

waiting for that day where we get the tools to (more easier) have a fair chance to kick their ass
don't like there /lol on me :-/

[Deleted]

as ele you dream hard, as enh i kick their asses now so is ok

[Nebria]

as ele you dream hard, as enh i kick their asses now so is ok

Enhancers are the other guys I don't want to fight against. A real nightmare^^ (ok I don't want to meet a lot of classes - bad memories of rage moments in arena ^^)
well there was some point when I have accepted that I should have some buddy behind me then it is by far better

[Deleted]

well keep in mind wow pvp is pretty screwed. And will be even worse! i saw this morning regarding loss of subscriptions in wow. i saw alsoin my server most of pvp players quitted in favor of gw2, thats why. And if you compare our class to vanilla one you can see that we lost plenty of our identity in favor of other classes, like mages. The fact is shammy, as always never get something good really. Ppl get bored and play pve only then. Those who don't play pve simply quit. Shammy is in a bad state. 2 r 3 new spells wont change things. Ascendance? Is a fail cuz unlike druid tree form wont help us vs pholy.

[Protoman]

Of course it is. It isn't possible to do a comparison that is both clear, concise, and legitimate. Any 2 of the 3, sure, but not all 3; if you go into enough detail for clarity in a thorough enough manner to be legitimate, it will not be concise.

That wasn't the point. The point was people make up distinctions, exactly as I had to for that particular list there, but they artificially draw the lines on their lists in such a way as to exclude the majority of the Shaman's tools. It's a deliberately unfair pattern of argument.

The point was never that Elemental Shaman are somehow "better" defensively than Mages. Mages have great defenses. I think that lists shows that. But Elemental has a lot of powerful tools too. They aren't the same as a Mage's, because we're not Mages. Everyone has different ability layouts. I absolutely don't agree that the MoP Elemental ability lists leaves us shortchanged for defenses. On the contrary, I look at that list and I see a heck of a lot of strength. Better than everyone else? Probably not. Strong enough to be a contender? That's my argument. The Shaman portfolio is a bit more active than most classes; you can't just freak out and jab your panic button when you screw up like a Mage hitting Iceblock. I don't see that as a negative, though, it just means we have a higher skill quotient, and I'm absolutely fine with that (and I'm not saying mages are "easier", either, just that Iceblock is an "easy" defensive tool).

Well....we all know who was the more competitive PVP class in WoW, Mages and not Shamans. Active defense is cool and can have an edge or shine in certain aspects of a fight.....but in the end if you are being focused and under heavy fire you need to rely on some solid defensive CD's. Shaman are getting some new ones (but again they lost some as well when one of the lowest to begin with for defenses)......but our T1 for examples is fairly limited, the only real PVP CD I see being effective is AS but it has a short duration and can't be used under CC effects like stun/silence.....SBT has 5HP and too easy to negate so gain little benefit, and NG is not controllable and could trigger at a time when you might still be safe cause of an incoming heal or use of other Cd's.

I think Enh and Resto are a little better off just cause of extra def CDs's and bonus heals in resto's case.....Elem has traditionally had little to no defenses, and could use atleast some passive damage reduction (prob 10%, similar to spriest and boomkin) or another defensive CD with some unique properties as a backup when AS is on cd.

[Endus]

Well....we all know who was the more competitive PVP class in WoW, Mages and not Shamans.

Nobody here is talking about Vanilla through Cata. We're discussing the changes for MoP.

[orderschvank]

if you pick elemental mastery, has anyone tested whether it is better to always wait for ascendance to cast EM, or just keep casting both off CD, until they can be casted at the same time again..

[Recom]

if you pick elemental mastery, has anyone tested whether it is better to always wait for ascendance to cast EM, or just keep casting both off CD, until they can be casted at the same time again..

You should not wait for Ascendance to cast EM you just want to sync them at the pull (if no BL) and @ 6min when they both come up at the same time.

[Protoman]

Nobody here is talking about Vanilla through Cata. We're discussing the changes for MoP.

How Shaman and Mages compared in survival and competitiveness in PVP during Cata is still relevant...Mages had more traditional defense with passives and stuff like shields and CDS, while Shaman have more active/preventive type defenses with stuff like WS and grounding but not many good defensive CD's.....you are trying to say that these preventive defense tools are "different but just as good".....and while they are good and sometimes better in ways by giving a unique edge on opponents, in the end you still need to rely on traditional defensive CD's and passives to fall back on when focused and under pressure......mages having more of those types of defenses (plus more reliable cc and control) helped give them a competitive edge. Shaman are getting some more defenses, but have also lost some of their only defenses.....they are getting a few active tools but also lost or reduced effect of old preventive tools like the WS nerf.

Can't say for sure how we will compare to other classes as there is still some number tweaks left, plus pvp power and resilience.....but I do think all T1 talents need some buffs and improvements, our T6 made easier to use (like imbue swapping for ULF and not restricting your other earth totems when using Primal Earth elem)......and prob some more defense for Elem atleast, either Ele warding 10% passive dmg reduction or another CD since Enh has a 1min Sham rage and Resto will have SLT and variety of stronger heals.

if you pick elemental mastery, has anyone tested whether it is better to always wait for ascendance to cast EM, or just keep casting both off CD, until they can be casted at the same time again..

Yea, like Recom said you shouldn't always sync them.....if you sync them the first time you use them (0 min mark), you can use EM again at the 2, 4, and 6 min mark.....while Ascendance again at the 3 and 6min mark.....so by using them on CD after first time synced you will get to use both together again at 6 min...which is prob just in time for the burn/execute phase.

[Endus]

How Shaman and Mages compared in survival and competitiveness in PVP during Cata is still relevant

No. It's not. Both classes are changing significantly enough that none of the prior information is of any relevance whatsoever. Mages aren't the same as they were in Cata. Neither are Shaman. It would make as much sense to pick any other random patch in the history of the game and claim that that was how it'll be in MoP.

Everything prior to September 25th, 2012 is 100% entirely irrelevant to the question of how the classes will be performing after September 25th, 2012. You can make some specific assertions about mechanics that haven't changed, but that's about it.

[orderschvank]

so from what i have been hearing, if PE talent stays the way it is, than our stat priority will go (after hit/int) haste/crit/mastery? because crit and haste will effect our elemental but not mastery.

[Protoman]

No. It's not. Both classes are changing significantly enough that none of the prior information is of any relevance whatsoever. Mages aren't the same as they were in Cata. Neither are Shaman. It would make as much sense to pick any other random patch in the history of the game and claim that that was how it'll be in MoP.

Everything prior to September 25th, 2012 is 100% entirely irrelevant to the question of how the classes will be performing after September 25th, 2012. You can make some specific assertions about mechanics that haven't changed, but that's about it.

Still relevant, not to mention a good way to see how a class built around "active/preventive" defense compares to a class that is build around traditional passive cds like absorbs and damage reductions (and while both classes had decent control, mages had better CC). Also, very little has changed about the classes and their mechanics.....esp Shaman, they just got some new CD's and new mechanics are basically old set bonuses integrated to the specs. Mages have gone under more changes, but both classes basic forms of defense are the same other then shaman getting an actual def cd and mages lost an absorb shield I think. We will have to see how they both hold up on release, but even without all the final balance tweaks I can tell just looking at T1 that our defense tier needs some extra buffs. otherwise our defensive tools will be weak and limited (like SBT at 5hp so not a viable pvp choice, limiting you to only AS if you want controlled defense, but even AS is weak cause its only 6 sec and can't be used under cc effects like stun/silence/ect. )

[Deleted]

So I've been testing Stormlash Totem and it does a whooping 0.5% of my dps ( the new undead racial does a bit over 1% )
I think the duration (10sec) is way too short for such a long cd(5min). Our so called cds barely even make a difference when it comes to dps increase.
Is there anyone with some more extensive shaman tests? Because at the moment, none of our cds seem to be worth an actionbar button to be honest, besides the Elemental.

ps: Shouldn't CoTe reset the cooldown of Fire Elemental as well?

[Protoman]

So I've been testing Stormlash Totem and it does a whooping 0.5% of my dps ( the new undead racial does a bit over 1% )
I think the duration (10sec) is way too short for such a long cd(5min). Our so called cds barely even make a difference when it comes to dps increase.
Is there anyone with some more extensive shaman tests? Because at the moment, none of our cds seem to be worth an actionbar button to be honest, besides the Elemental.

ps: Shouldn't CoTe reset the cooldown of Fire Elemental as well?

Which spec did you test it out as? I thought Stormlash was supposed to be a pretty good cd and put out some high dps for the time its out, some people said it was even too good for other classes...... These dps logs by Purge are like 2 months old: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...7?page=61#1208 , but Stormlash does about 3-4% of overall damage in a 10 min fight which is pretty good for 10 sec of DPS. I don't know if it has been changed at all recently, like any nerfs, but before it could proc multiple times in those 10 sec....even off melee swings and dots and stuff, but your casted spells would give a stronger proc while melee swings gave a smaller proc. For Elemental I found a few DPS logs of each mop raid boss here (go to bottom of page): http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...mental-Shamman ....no enh shaman but there is an elem shaman, and their DPS seems about right and in middle along with some other classes, and you got the OP ones up top like hunter/rogue/mage/lock...so all the pure dps specs lol, but I think they are getting nerfs esp hunters.....but yea for elem in those logs their stormlash is like around 2-3% too so I guess thats alright....just make sure you have dots up and always casting thru the entire 10 sec.

I think the 10 sec duration is fine (tho 15sec wouldn't be bad either for 5min), but the 5HP isn't....a 5min CD should not be so easy to kill and negate, comparatively your Bloodlust/hero would take atleast 3-5 dispels to remove from a normal 3v3 or 5v5....not including if you dispel a hot or other buff instead of your intended lust/hero.....but Stormlash is one simple attack by any class, it's just not balanced to have proper defenses.

I think our offensive CD's have gotten better, moreso for Elem then Enh. Our ascendance and fire elementals are good, even without the primal ele talent......but for Enhance the Elem Mastery CD is kinda crappy cause its just haste buff and only passive damage, it doesn't let us use more active abilities like Elem can with more casted spells over 20 sec then normal (would be nice if EM reduced the CD of our SS so we could use it more often in 20 sec). Our Feral Spirits is also still crappy and does horrible DPS as it has for a long time now.

Think those are all the DPS CD's we have : Ascendance, Elemental totems, Stormlash totem, Feral Spirits.....so most of em are decent. Stormlash can't be TOO good either cause its a raid CD and if too powerful could lead to stacking shaman and being brought for our buffs, which might give Blizz an excuse to not make us competitive in DPS or Healing cause we will still be desired for our raid buffs (like in past with lust/hero)

[nazrakin]

So I've been testing Stormlash Totem and it does a whooping 0.5% of my dps ( the new undead racial does a bit over 1% )
I think the duration (10sec) is way too short for such a long cd(5min). Our so called cds barely even make a difference when it comes to dps increase.
Is there anyone with some more extensive shaman tests? Because at the moment, none of our cds seem to be worth an actionbar button to be honest, besides the Elemental.

ps: Shouldn't CoTe reset the cooldown of Fire Elemental as well?

I'm not sure what you mean, all of our cooldowns are pretty amazing.

- Stormlash isn't a personal CD, its a group CD. Notice that the buff is applied to your entire raid and there is no "exhaustion" debuff to keep multiple Shaman from dropping them. I've seen beta logs where Stormlash alone does 8 million damage with 3 Shaman in the raid. Its incredibly powerful and I wouldn't be surprised if it get even more nerfs before live.

- Logs from beta raids have a Primal Fire elemental doing ~25% of the Shamans overall damage, CoTE was changed to not effect 5min buffs for that exact reason (stormlash too).

I agree that CoTE is pretty bad, but the others are all quite good, if not too good.