[OFFICIAL] MoP Beta Build Changes Discussion Thread

[reyareya]

24s? that should be the default one for FLS in MoP and with the glyph it will go to 30s right? technically the glyph removes the initial shock damage but adds 2 ticks. probably when we are at lvl90 we might be able to reach that ~39% haste. who knows, might need AS for that extra 5% boost. but as eleshams, we really dont need that instant nature spell. at least, i think i dont.

[Protoman]

24s? that should be the default one for FLS in MoP and with the glyph it will go to 30s right? technically the glyph removes the initial shock damage but adds 2 ticks. probably when we are at lvl90 we might be able to reach that ~39% haste. who knows, might need AS for that extra 5% boost. but as eleshams, we really dont need that instant nature spell. at least, i think i dont.

Yea, 24s base and 30 w/ glyph. I doubt we could get that high without blust or EM or some other temp cd......maybe if you only stack haste don't know really. Prob wouldn't be the best choice for dps cause you would reach the lvb haste cap around 30% i think.

EM will prob be the best cd for raids and stuff when you need to time your burst, maybe PVP too. AS will prob be an all around good cd, questing and PVP for the instant burst/heals/hex......maybe raids for support. Least for Ele/resto that is.

[marukale]

TC is not optional, its mandatory. More mana is everything for a healer. If they balance our regen w/o considering TC, then our mana with the glyph will be too good. If they balance our regen w/ TC, then our base regen will be poor and we will need the glyph to be on par. TC is a very interesting and unique mana tool, but it's practically part of playing Resto at this point, even moreso now that we have the hit cap (which was a good buff overall, not complaining).

I ran second half of DS10 last night (ultra on heroic rest on normal) with a resto shammy (as our standard 2nd healer was unavailbe) who doesn't have TC. It's been a very long time since I've had a spec without TC and was concerned what her healing would be like without it. Compared to me she was doing less healing but she also has less gear, what she did seemed reasonable for her gear level and so the only real difference was that she contributed less dps to the fights but when we are talking 1k dps that isn't major.

I was surprised how well you can do without TC, I don't think it is as mandatory as people believe.

Back in BWD TC was pretty much mana neutral unless there were adds at significantly lower level so the miss chance dropped, or the boss had a debuff to take extra damage. At that point it is more of a play style choice / situational glyph, but even if it is like that for first tier at 90 if it scales with int it's going to become better and better through the expansion.

It needs to either be mana neutral for the entire expansion (or at least the majority of bosses each tier) or it needs to become baseline.

[Sarevokcz]

I ran second half of DS10 last night (ultra on heroic rest on normal) with a resto shammy (as our standard 2nd healer was unavailbe) who doesn't have TC. It's been a very long time since I've had a spec without TC and was concerned what her healing would be like without it. Compared to me she was doing less healing but she also has less gear, what she did seemed reasonable for her gear level and so the only real difference was that she contributed less dps to the fights but when we are talking 1k dps that isn't major.

I was surprised how well you can do without TC, I don't think it is as mandatory as people believe.

normals + boss where mana isnt an issue until 5+ minute mark, which boss never reaches after the nerfs?

Back in BWD TC was pretty much mana neutral unless there were adds at significantly lower level so the miss chance dropped, or the boss had a debuff to take extra damage. At that point it is more of a play style choice / situational glyph, but even if it is like that for first tier at 90 if it scales with int it's going to become better and better through the expansion.

It needs to either be mana neutral for the entire expansion (or at least the majority of bosses each tier) or it needs to become baseline.

If they wanted it to be mana neutral, they would have changed it to cost zero mana for resto, just like druid got theirs. I dont buy their "we might fix it later" answer to scaling questions, if it scales and is mana positive even from the get go, then it becomes "mandatory" since blizzard will have to balance our regen around it. I dont like making resto regen completely dependant on their glyph selection.

[Recom]

Ultraxion hc and spine/madness normal are a joke healing wise and you could do it in t11 without mana issues. Now spine/madness heroic without TC is a whole other thing, it may be possible but certainly not easy and you would seriously gimp yourself by doing so.

[Deleted]

It's not often I find myself outright agreeing with Protoman but as regards TC I'd say he's got it right. In current incarnation it's too powerful to ignore.
To give actual numbers from a recent Heroic Madness Kill (With just TC, no hit talents etc, mastery heavy reforges):
Mana regained by Telluric Currents: 417,429
Mana regained from Resurgence: 90,497
Mana Regained from Water shield: 7,846

Now I realise that Madness with the cataclysm + 100% damage and Kalecgos + 20% damage buffs is a bit skewed in this regard but even if those were not present at all TC would still be doing well over half my regen. And this highlights another potential problem with TC: Burn phases are fun to put into encounters ( See: Magmaw, Alysrazor) and ramping damage mechanics form the core of a not insignificant amount of fights (See: Halfus, Zon'ozz) so on those fights TC becomes a monster of regen and totally imbalances healing to the point that you may as well have no spirit on gear for those encounters, totally undermining the new regen changes coming.

The other big thing, as was pointed out, is that if you're sitting bolting the boss then the other healer is taking the slack for those couple of seconds: Now on some fights that's fine e.g early ultraxion there's loads of time to spam LBs and so enter the more healing intensive later phases with full mana. but on Madness? During tentacle burn phases I am constantly having to make a choice between hitting the boss and regaining an ungodly amount of manaand actually healing the raid through the heavy damage. I'd be a fool to ignore the regen potential but if I do exploit it then the health pools of all drop down very nastily over the ~2 second cast.

So as a TLDR sort of thing: TC as it is can make us stunning at fights where we can regen with it happily, very poor at fights where we cannot. It makes the variance in performance too great.

P.S: I read a blue post recently about priests where it was mentioned that rapture for disc might be returning as a spirit based regen mechanic so I have hope that the current incarnation on beta is a placeholder.

[Protoman]

I was surprised how well you can do without TC, I don't think it is as mandatory as people believe.

Back in BWD TC was pretty much mana neutral unless there were adds at significantly lower level so the miss chance dropped, or the boss had a debuff to take extra damage. At that point it is more of a play style choice / situational glyph, but even if it is like that for first tier at 90 if it scales with int it's going to become better and better through the expansion.

It needs to either be mana neutral for the entire expansion (or at least the majority of bosses each tier) or it needs to become baseline.

Mana will definitely be limited at the start of the xpac, it's the only way to ensure a tough time getting thru the raids, forcing people to play smarter and avoid damage so their healer doesn't oom. TC will most likely be mandatory simply because it gives back mana and you can't really ignore free mana. I would prefer it be baseline or removed and base regen buffed as opposed to mana neutral.

It's not often I find myself outright agreeing with Protoman but as regards TC I'd say he's got it right. In current incarnation it's too powerful to ignore.
To give actual numbers from a recent Heroic Madness Kill (With just TC, no hit talents etc, mastery heavy reforges):
Mana regained by Telluric Currents: 417,429
Mana regained from Resurgence: 90,497
Mana Regained from Water shield: 7,846

And this highlights another potential problem with TC: Burn phases ....on those fights TC becomes a monster of regen and totally imbalances healing to the point that you may as well have no spirit on gear for those encounters, totally undermining the new regen changes coming.

The other big thing, as was pointed out, is that if you're sitting bolting the boss then the other healer is taking the slack for those couple of seconds: ....I'd be a fool to ignore the regen potential but if I do exploit it then the health pools of all drop down very nastily over the ~2 second cast.

So as a TLDR sort of thing: TC as it is can make us stunning at fights where we can regen with it happily, very poor at fights where we cannot. It makes the variance in performance too great.

P.S: I read a blue post recently about priests where it was mentioned that rapture for disc might be returning as a spirit based regen mechanic so I have hope that the current incarnation on beta is a placeholder.

Lol....how dare you not agree with everything I say!

You didn't offer any input as to what you would like to see happen to TC. Do you want TC to....
-Stay as glyph, but tweaked for more consistent/predictable regen, and our base mechanics improved
-Integrate into spec, tweaked for more consistent/predictable regen
-Removed completely, and base regen improved
-Or some other solution?

What do you think of the TC ideas I suggested?

Rapture used to give like 7% of total mana instantly. When GC said that it might come back but scale off Spirit, to me that sounds like one of two things:
-Either similar to Hpally Judgements (Give 30% Spirit regen in combat), so they might also get more in combat regen based off Spirit, poss a stacking buff.
-Or some % of the mp5 gained from Spirit will be given instantly


I suggested something similar for TC. Either a stacking buff to get more regen from spirit in combat (with 1min duration), or TC gives a static % of our mana pool back to us.....possibly even scale to give more when mana pool is low, and less when mana pool is high. That way you would not have to use it as often, or only when low on mana. I think the stacking buff idea is probably better, that way once you get 3 stacks (for like 20% spirit in combat) you just have to refresh once a minute and are free to heal, while the actual mana gained from a LB will be pretty small (~2-3%) and you won't feel compelled to cast it everytime we have a free gcd. I do feel that it should be integrated with the spec, since it's basically just like Rapture, Judgement, or Revitalize.

[Deleted]

You didn't offer any input as to what you would like to see happen to TC. Do you want TC to....
-Stay as glyph, but tweaked for more consistent/predictable regen, and our base mechanics improved
-Integrate into spec, tweaked for more consistent/predictable regen
-Removed completely, and base regen improved
-Or some other solution?

Alrighty:
I would absolutely hate for it to remain as a glyph, if it does only 1 of 2 things are possible as I see it:
I) The glyph is nerfed to the ground, making it only applicable for a select few fights with burn phases or what have you.
II) The glyph remains as is, regen is based around it and we are down to only having 2 glyph slots instead of 3.

Integrating into a spec is not a bad idea, allows for balancing of regen on the assumption that all shaman can make us of it. However I'm still not enamoured of this idea as it remains an active regen that costs a great many GCDs, potentially causing added stress to other healers. At least in this manner we get to play about with all 3 glyph slots to tailor spec to preference and fight.

Ideally I'd like to see it removed, or reworked beyond recognition, your idea similar to judgement is a fine way to go. The alternative that would make me happy would be making spite/wrath/exorcism/ X Monk Spell work in a similar manner. Homogenisation of classes does have a place when it's something as core to the role as regen.

[PsyBomb]

The way I see it, in order for TC to be both balanced and usable for the entire expansion it HAS to be integrated into the spec. This incidentally forms the missing "Personal Active Mana Gains" ability that only Shamans among all healers are missing.

In order for it to be balanced, there are really only two options for its function. Neither of these is its current form, which will either start weak and end fair or start fair and end way overpowered (or both, as in Cata).
1) Make it a Judgement-like system, which increases your in-combat regen by 30% for X seconds. This is the easiest to play with for the Shaman and is closest to their stated goal of "Spirit-Based Regen".
2) make it return a set % or your mana (in other words a static value in MoP), call it double what LB costs. In this case, it stays roughly what it is today but without the massive overpower potential from increasing spellpower or boss vulnerability phases. Would likely end up forcing GoUL if this comes true (but then again, current form forces GoTC)

[Kenai]

Well, my personal complaint about TC is that I have had to use it in DS (when I really dislike the play-style) to realistically stay competitive.

The more objective problem with TC as far as the Beta goes stems from the fact that it is INT based regen, after Blizzard just went out of their way to remove INT-based regen from everything in regards to healers. That's why they decoupled maximum mana from INT in the first place. Since INT also increases throughput at the same time, it scaled too well in comparison to Spirit based mana regen throughout Cataclysm. Compounding this fact was that healers who *could* ignore Spirit could reforge out of it to increase their throughput even further via Haste and Mastery and whatever. TC isn't just the only INT based Healer regen left on Beta, but it is the *best* healer mana regeneration tool on the Beta. I have yet to see anything else come close.

That's why I'm absolutely sure that even if Blizzard is intending on ignoring it, they will be forced to change it when it goes Live, because other Healers will start to notice, and they WILL complain. The discrepancy will be far too great between Shaman and everyone else as-is.

My *hope* however, is they realize that the Glyph is a serious problem and just haven't done anything about it yet. The Beta cap is still 87, after all. I want to see it fixed so that it's really an option (or much less of a pain to use and put in baseline) and then make sure our regen is comparable to everyone else. This would be the best case scenario.

I'm still going to keep complaining about it on the Beta though. Every day I log in.

[Eliot123]

Ugh, not sure if I'm liking this whole TC thing again. One expansion was enough, had fun, got the shirt, threw lightning bolts at bosses, let's move on now. As much as I like to think of it as ''optional'', for many fights through the expansion it really wasn't (especially in Firelands). Unless, ofc, it is totally mana neutral. In that case, fire away.

Personally, I prefer Attonement mechanic to TC.

[Volitar]

1. I solo'd a full pvp rogue who opened on me while questing and killed him with full pve gear
2. At level 85 as ele my healing surge crits for 75k.

wow

[themaster24]

At level 85 as ele my healing surge crits for 75k.

I had a 90k while doing temple of the jade serpent o.O It caught me off guard

[Protoman]

Well, my personal complaint about TC is that I have had to use it in DS (when I really dislike the play-style) to realistically stay competitive.

The more objective problem with TC as far as the Beta goes stems from the fact that it is INT based regen, after Blizzard just went out of their way to remove INT-based regen from everything in regards to healers.

My *hope* however, is they realize the the Glyph is a problem and just haven't done anything about it yet. The Beta cap is still 87, after all. I want to see it fixed so that it's really an option (or much less of a pain to use and put in baseline) and then make sure our regen is comparable to everyone else. This would be the best case scenario.

Yea, TC is allowing Resto to bypass alot of the mana issues other healers are facing in Beta apparently. I think at this point Blizz realizes its a problem, or something that needs to be addressed. My guess (hope) is that they left the glyph in just for us to use during Beta while they think of a way to incorporate it into the spec. I keep expecting some big patch with huge updates to Shaman mechanics, not sure if it will ever happen though. I'm crossing my fingers for a change on WS icd as well.

The way I see it, in order for TC to be both balanced and usable for the entire expansion it HAS to be integrated into the spec. This incidentally forms the missing "Personal Active Mana Gains" ability that only Shamans among all healers are missing.

In order for it to be balanced, there are really only two options for its function. Neither of these is its current form, which will either start weak and end fair or start fair and end way overpowered (or both, as in Cata).
1) Make it a Judgement-like system, which increases your in-combat regen by 30% for X seconds. This is the easiest to play with for the Shaman and is closest to their stated goal of "Spirit-Based Regen".
2) make it return a set % or your mana (in other words a static value in MoP), call it double what LB costs. In this case, it stays roughly what it is today but without the massive overpower potential from increasing spellpower or boss vulnerability phases. Would likely end up forcing GoUL if this comes true (but then again, current form forces GoTC)

I agree it should be integrated. TC is really a unique and vital part of the class now. It deserves to be integrated more then stuff like "chain heal will not consume riptide". It would save us a glyph slot, and could finally be balanced properly if specific just to Resto. As for your suggestions, I offered a very similar suggestion earlier, it's basically a combination of both of yours:

Telluric Currents:
Your LB's that do damage will return mana to you (2.5x the cost of LB = ~3.5% total mana back). They will also trigger "Telluric Currents", a buff that increases your Spirit Regen while in combat by 7%. This buff can stack up to 3 times for 20% total Spirit in combat, and lasts for 1 minute.


From what I have read, you have 160k mana right now at lvl 87 if healer (with the 400% mana buff). That means 32k base mana. LB costs about 7% base mana, so that is about 2240 mana for a LB. This ends up being only about 1.4% of a Resto's total mana pool. My version of TC would give 2.5x that amount, which would give you about 3.5% of total mana back with each LB. So basically with this new TC you would get 70% Spirit in combat regen (20% from TC and 50% base), as well as 3.5% of total mana back with each LB. To maintain TC's passive regen, you would just have to cast 3 LB's at start and refresh atleast once a minute. And if you want you can cast more LB's for some mana back, but always a static amount like you mentioned, so predictable and doesn't fluctuate based on outside factors.

These numbers can all be adjusted of course. And along with this change, WS would need to be tweaked a bit......Triple the icd, but only double the mana/orb. This will make it so you only gotta refresh once in 30 sec, as well as a slight nerf to it's mana regen from damage taken which will be made up for by more passive regen thru TC, as well as being able to actively regen thru LB.

I think that would give us some solid mana mechanics then:
- 70% Spirit in combat, passive regen via TC
- 3.5% total mana/LB, active regen via TC
- Mp5 and mana when taking damage, passive/reactive regen via WS
- Mana from Healing Crits, active regen via Resurg

[Tactic6995]

enhance self-healing in beta....O.o

[Ize]

Its been said before but glyphs are suppose to be 'optional', any changes to TC to be more like judgements which +spirit regen for a minute would need to be spec based not glyph based.
I think they should make the glyph of TC make LB cost zero, thus being optional, and giving resto something to do without penalty in 5mans like it was originally intended.
Then give resto back Mana Spring Totem as a personal mana CD, which can be balanced like other healer CDs.
(Tho i would love blizz to ignore this issue entirely, even after live, and let us 'shine' for a bit )

[Kenai]

(Tho i would love blizz to ignore this issue entirely, even after live, and let us 'shine' for a bit )

That would be kind of funny, and it *could* technically happen if Blizzard is stubborn enough about ignoring TC like they have been in Cata.

The thing is though, if our regen is absolutely crushing other healers in by comparison (and it very much would if it went live as-is), the other healers we raid with would be absolutely furious. The b*tching would be glorious and memorable: "the day Resto Shaman was clearly better than you". But after Blizzard's inevitable knee-jerk reaction to situations like that, it would most likely end up with our entire regen system gutted and unable to compete. And then everyone would go back to not caring for the rest of the expansion. Sounds eerily familiar to the MTT thing pre-nerf, right? And other healers barely complained about that back thn since they almost got as much of a benefit as we did...

I'd rather not take the risk, personally.

[Northy]

I've been watching a few MoP Shaman vids and was wondering if they got rid of the aura idea for mana stream/healing stream/strength/stoneskin etc ?

seems like they still have to put those down in this vid Here.

[Protoman]

enhance self-healing in beta....O.o

Lol, pretty OP. That new buff to HS has really given it a kick. Would much rather have wolves do real dps then support heals tho. When exactly did we go from "offensive hybrid" to "offhealing hybrid"? They should double their damage and have them scale with secondary stats, and reduce the healing a bit. Let the glyph trade some damage for healing.

Its been said before but glyphs are suppose to be 'optional', any changes to TC to be more like judgements which +spirit regen for a minute would need to be spec based not glyph based.
I think they should make the glyph of TC make LB cost zero, thus being optional, and giving resto something to do without penalty in 5mans like it was originally intended.
Then give resto back Mana Spring Totem as a personal mana CD, which can be balanced like other healer CDs.
(Tho i would love blizz to ignore this issue entirely, even after live, and let us 'shine' for a bit )

Lol, If you actually bothered to read what I wrote you would have seen I said it should be part of Resto spec: "TC is really a unique and vital part of the class now. It deserves to be integrated more then stuff like "chain heal will not consume riptide". It would save us a glyph slot, and could finally be balanced properly if specific just to Resto"

Personally, I like TC as it's our only real source of active regen and I think with balance tweaks it could be a good addition to the spec without being tedious. Removing/nerfing it would work too, but you'd have to buff our other regen to make up for it. Making TC's effect only free LB's would make the glyph pretty useless tho. If it's not giving alot of mana back, it could just give a tiny amount. Like instead of cost 7% base mana, give us 7% base mana.....which for Resto ends up being only like 1.4% of their total mana pool. And if you don't want it to be mana related at all, it should atleast buff our heals like wrath does for druids. Or increase the damage/healing/crit/haste of our next spell.

For mechanics improvements, we lack a strong active regen mechanic. TC was our only true controllable active regen. The closest thing we have is Resurgence, which is based off crits and not very reliable. One improvement they could make is more ways to "fish for crits". Tidalwaves>HS>crit mana proc used to do that till it got nerfed. ULE could possibly serve that purpose again, maybe increase next heal's crit to proc mana, or make next heal cheap/free or give back mana based on the heal you do or based on current Spirit. WS needs a look at too, longer icd and more passive regen vs procs.

I have actually suggested MST be revamped into a personal cd just for Shaman in the past. Or MTT give Resto double mana back, but I prefer having our aoe and single mana cds separate. It could be on a 5min cd so not affected by Call of Elementals talent that resets totem cds.

---------- Post added 2012-04-14 at 05:09 AM ----------

I've been watching a few MoP Shaman vids and was wondering if they got rid of the aura idea for mana stream/healing stream/strength/stoneskin etc ?

seems like they still have to put those down in this vid Here.

Cmon man, Shaman changes are everywhere. They got rid of mana spring, str of earth, stoneskin......healing stream is single target smart heal on 30sec cd. If you are asking about buff totems, they are gone, we have auras they just don't show up on the UI only on other party members. Right now we got 10% SP and Mastery buffs. We are supposed to have Melee/Spell Haste as well but I don't think any class has haste buff yet so either they removed it or not implemented yet. Enh for some reason also brings SP, which is dumb cause we don't benefit.....hopefully will be changed to either give AP instead, or personal 10% AP gain.

The totems you see drop is most likely from the minor glyph which drops fake totems. So lets say you drop healing stream, a water totem......it will drop 3 totems with it of the other 3 elements. If you drop healing and then searing, glyph will drop a "air" and "earth" totem nearby. You gotta drop totems one at a time now, glyph is just there to confuse players and for people who are too used to the old quad totems.

[Tides]

I had a 90k while doing temple of the jade serpent o.O It caught me off guard

I had a 120k crit as Enhacement (Healing Storm glyph is OP!)