MOP Beta : Warriors Self Heal Discussion

[Deleted]

I've recently come to think about how in fact is a Warrior gonna manage to bring back up his health bar in MoP, as we don't seem to have any real tool to manage such a feat, especially when compared to other melee classes.
Why is MoP Warrior self heal, so low compared to other classes, and especially when compared to the today's Cataclysm Warrior ? It really has become a great concern for me.

Right now we have 5 sources of self heal;

*Enraged Regeneration - You regenerate 30% (36% with FD) of your total health over 10 sec. 3 min CD.

*Blood Craze - After taking any damage, you have a 10% chance to regenerate 3% (4% with FD) of your total Health over 5 sec.

*Second Wind - Whenever you are struck by a Stun or Immobilize effect you regenerate 5% (6% with FD) of your total health over 10 sec.

*Impending Victory - Using Devastate on a target with 20% or less health has a 50% chance to allow the use of Victory Rush but that Victory Rush only heals for 5% (9.5% with FD and Victory Rush glyph) of your health.

*Victory Rush - Instantly attack the target causing damage and healing you for 20% (36% with FD and VR glyph) of your maximum health. Can only be used within 20 sec after you kill an enemy that yields experience or honor.

Except for Impending Victory these abilities are accessible to all 3 specs, and the Prot Warrior can have them all. In addition to this we have Field Dressing, which increases these abilities by 20%.


Now lets see what we have in MoP Beta so far.

In the new Talent system, at lvl 30, we will be able to chose 1 self heal ability (1. Not 2 or all 3, no, only 1), similar to one in the list above with some little twitching or improvement ;

*1* MoP Enraged Regeneration - Instantly heals for 15% HP, and 1% every 1 sec for 15 seconds long. 2min CD.

*2* MoP Blood Craze (Renamed Second Wind) - Whenever a direct hit is taken, you have a 10% chance to heal for 1% HP every 1 sec for 10 seconds long.

*3* MoP Impending Victory - Instantly heals for 10% max HP. 30 sec CD.

We still have Victory Rush, in every spec working the same way as CT's, but we no longer have Field Dressing - only a glyph that increases Bandage healing by 20% (why not make it every self heal, as we have now with FD talent, instead of just bandages ?? I simply don't understand why.)

I'm pretty glad with the improvements made to these 3 abilities individually. They are now, on their own, more effective and more useful than what they used to be. My concern however is that we can only have ONE of them, which makes it that compared to what we have now (the 4, 5 combined abilities), it's a HUGE nerf in the face.

If one is to take MoP ER, he will be able to self heal just slightly more with it than with CT ER, thanks to its 2 min CD, compared to the 3 min CD of the Cataclysm version of this spell. But he will automatically lose the 3 other self heal we presently have => BC, Sec W, IV. If he takes MoP BC (which isn't even better than the CT version, as it only works on ''direct'' hits) he loses, ER and IV. If he takes IV instead, he loses ER and BC, etc... And the Cataclysm version of Second wind has simply disappeared from the game, with nothing to replace it.

This makes it that no matter the choice we make, we will always be losing not less than some 50% self heal, when compared to what we have now. We will also have less options, as instead of 4 abilities, we will only be having 1.

Is this because developers consider that presently Warriors have ''too much'' self heal ? If this is the case then I'm utterly shocked, as we simply represent the melee/tank class with the least overall self heal. One could say, well we now have other abilities to counter balanced the nerf in our self heal, such as, Die by the Sword (a really great talent btw), Avatar for greater mobility in PvP and Demo Banner.
Yes in a PvP environment, the Warriors should do better, and perhaps not ''need'' any more self heal, justifying such a nerf, but what about the PvE Prot Warrior ?

As a Prot Warrior when I look at my MoP arsenals, I don't see any new tool that could replace the lose in my self healing abilities. I don't have DbtS (which would be the greatest thing to have), Avatar and Enraged increased mobility doesn't help my survivability, the banner could be a nice ''Raid Wall'' if my raid do let me use it as such instead of the Skull Banner, but it doesn't even come close in replacing anything.
Thus, when we compare all this to the other tanks self heal, one really gets to ask why are Prot Warriors being so much pushed back in this particular section, and not have anything to balance it ?

I ask myself, why go nerf us even more, when we are already doing so bad in this field ? We could think it's because other melee/tanks are also receiving nerfs in this department but not at all - Pallys have 2 or 3 new healing/mitigation spells, same for droods and DKs; WoG now doesn't even have any CD on it, so on bosses that block isn't that important they can simply spam WoG with their Holy Power, resulting in some ridiculously high amount of self heal. Same for druid's Frenzied Regen, no CD, lasts for 6 sec and heals them for 5% max HP per 1 sec - they can keep it up as long as they want, if they decide to spend their rage mainly in that, whilst Warriors are losing at least 2 healing spells, with absolutely nothing new to replace them. Why is this ?

If one could give me any ''reasonable'' answer, I'd gladly accept it, and get on with things, but right now I simply can't think of any.

[PizzaSHARK]

You need to look at other classes. Other non-healer classes are losing a lot of self-healing, too.

Warriors actually have more self-healing than any other non-DPS class right now, especially since Second Wind and Blood Craze are essentially free and permanent. Sub Rogues have better self-healing due to that moronic Energetic Recovery talent, but DKs, Paladins, Shamans, etc have to spend a lot of resources for fairly minor healing compared to Warrior healing.

You need to remember that this is just the first week of Beta and they haven't spent hardly any time at all on any content that isn't lvl 1-10 Panda+Monk starting crap.

[Kaosadvokit]

You need to look at other classes. Other non-healer classes are losing a lot of self-healing, too.

Warriors actually have more self-healing than any other non-DPS class right now, especially since Second Wind and Blood Craze are essentially free and permanent.... but DKs..... have to spend a lot of resources for fairly minor healing compared to Warrior healing.

Not sure wtf you're looking at, but Deathstrike is still exactly the same, and still part of Blood's rotation.

EDIT: Also you can still get Vamp Blood, and now you can put shields on yourself with death coils. Blood's Healing isn't nerfed at all. It's still exactly the same.

[PizzaSHARK]

Not sure wtf you're looking at, but Deathstrike is still exactly the same, and still part of Blood's rotation.

EDIT: Also you can still get Vamp Blood, and still LB heal yourself with death coils. Blood's Healing isn't nerfed at all. It's still exactly the same.

I was under the impression that we were talking about DPS classes and not tanks. Lichborne healing is on a long cooldown and costs an enormous amount of resources, so does Death Pact. Death Strike costs an enormous amount of DPS for fairly weak healing.

Blood DKs heal more than other tanks, but that's because they don't have a proper substitute for Block. They basically take the damage, and then heal it up to simulate blocking, hence why DK tanks are often more difficult to heal than Paladins or Warriors, especially if the DK doesn't know how to time his Death Strikes correctly.

[Asmodejjj]

Way I see it:

Blood Craze (in pvp at least) will have 100% uptime, regenerating 60% max health/min. MoP's Victory Rush (used off CD) is 20% per minute. So far, I'm liking the changes. The ER is the least impressive so far.

[Kaosadvokit]

Blood DKs heal more than other tanks, but that's because they don't have a proper substitute for Block. They basically take the damage, and then heal it up to simulate blocking, hence why DK tanks are often more difficult to heal than Paladins or Warriors, especially if the DK doesn't know how to time his Death Strikes correctly.

Again, I have no idea wtf you're talking about. DK's are the premier tanks atm because of all of the self healing they have. They are infact easier to heal than a warrior/paladin.

[Deleted]

You need to look at other classes. Other non-healer classes are losing a lot of self-healing, too.

This is not the case, and it's exactly what scares me. Other melee classes and tanks are NOT losing self heal. Pallies for e.g. have more self heal, and 1 extra CD Hand of Purity.

Warriors actually have more self-healing than any other non-DPS class right now, especially since Second Wind and Blood Craze are essentially free and permanent.

This is false, really. You perhaps misread the tooltip, as Blood Craze and Second arren't free at all. In fact if you took Second Wind (MoP version of Blood craze, as the real Second Wind heal has been removed) you simply won't be able to take, neither of the two other healing abilities, as the are both on the same roll.
This means, no matter the choice we will always be losing 2 or 3 healing abilities we have now. There's no way this can improve our healing.
Again I think you misread something, somewhere.

You need to remember that this is just the first week of Beta and they haven't spent hardly any time at all on any content that isn't lvl 1-10 Panda+Monk starting crap.

Yes, ; ) and this is exactly why I've started talking about it now, as it is not too late to set things right, and improve them.

[Alysana]

everyone are losing a fair chunck of their selfhealing abilities, which is a good thing (see recup etc)

[Raugnaut]

I do agree, Warriors are loosing quite a bit of self healing. Here be what I suggest:

Second Wind, as it is now- Baseline for all warriors.

Enraged Regeneration as seen via talent-Baseline for all warriors.

To replace those 2 talents, we get Blood Strikes- Mortal Strike, Bloodthirst, and Shield Slam restore health equal to damage done, Blood Craze, which is pretty much what is there now, and Enduring Victory- Instead of being on a 30 sec CD, make it to where auto-attacks have a varying chance to proc it.

[cFortyfive]

everyone are losing a fair chunck of their selfhealing abilities, which is a good thing (see recup etc)

Mhh didn't take the time yet to get an overview on all the changes so what did happen to recup ? It still seems in the skill list - the talent to improve it though seems gone. As far as I am aware also wog is still usable and they even removed the cooldown as another example.

[Deleted]

everyone are losing a fair chunck of their selfhealing abilities, which is a good thing (see recup etc)

I'm mostly talking about Tanks here, as for a PvP DPS this doesn't really matter, mainly cause there's this new Die by the Sword spell, and more mobility abilities and more CC, etc.
For PvE Prot, we simply have nothing replacing these loses. I've read changes for all 3 other tank spec, and non have lose any self heal. On the contrary they mostly have 1 or 2 new mitigation or healing ability in addition to what they already have now in Cataclysm.

---------- Post added 2012-03-28 at 05:45 AM ----------

I do agree, Warriors are loosing quite a bit of self healing. Here be what I suggest:

Second Wind, as it is now- Baseline for all warriors.

Enraged Regeneration as seen via talent-Baseline for all warriors.

To replace those 2 talents, we get Blood Strikes- Mortal Strike, Bloodthirst, and Shield Slam restore health equal to damage done, Blood Craze, which is pretty much what is there now, and Enduring Victory- Instead of being on a 30 sec CD, make it to where auto-attacks have a varying chance to proc it.

Yes, something like this would be great even though I'm not asking for that much, ; )
But, yeah, that's the idea.

Right now, it's just depressing how low we stand.

[PizzaSHARK]

I do agree, Warriors are loosing quite a bit of self healing. Here be what I suggest:

Second Wind, as it is now- Baseline for all warriors.

Enraged Regeneration as seen via talent-Baseline for all warriors.

To replace those 2 talents, we get Blood Strikes- Mortal Strike, Bloodthirst, and Shield Slam restore health equal to damage done, Blood Craze, which is pretty much what is there now, and Enduring Victory- Instead of being on a 30 sec CD, make it to where auto-attacks have a varying chance to proc it.

Ridiculous.

Second Wind is free healing that costs absolutely nothing and is always active. With a 10% chance to activate off any damage, that's going to result in extremely high uptime versus basically anything. This is counterbalanced by it also healing the slowest of the three available options. Over the same two minute period, it will heal for a great deal more than Enraged Regeneration or Impending Victory, but it will also take the longest to heal that amount.

Enraged Regeneration is a burst healing ability. It heals for less, but it heals rapidly, with 15% recovered instantly and another 15% over the next 15 seconds.

Impending Victory is the middle ground, healing for a relatively small amount instantly, but with long gaps between heals.

All three are good for tanking. ER will prevent you from dying to bursts, but Second Wind will make things easier on your healers over time due to the constant trickle of health recovery. IV will occupy a nice middle ground.

I don't really see how we're much worse off than any other tank. Paladins and DKs don't have an anti-magic ability as strong as Shield Barrier (25% DR with uptime limited only by Rage, versus 40% every 60 seconds or 75% every 45 seconds respectively), and I'm fairly certain that Shield Block will beat out both Shield of Righteousness and Blood Shield in terms of reducing incoming physical damage.

[Deleted]

Ridiculous.

Second Wind is free healing that costs absolutely nothing and is always active. With a 10% chance to activate off any damage, that's going to result in extremely high uptime versus basically anything. This is counterbalanced by it also healing the slowest of the three available options. Over the same two minute period, it will heal for a great deal more than Enraged Regeneration or Impending Victory, but it will also take the longest to heal that amount.

Enraged Regeneration is a burst healing ability. It heals for less, but it heals rapidly, with 15% recovered instantly and another 15% over the next 15 seconds.

Impending Victory is the middle ground, healing for a relatively small amount instantly, but with long gaps between heals.

All three are good for tanking. ER will prevent you from dying to bursts, but Second Wind will make things easier on your healers over time due to the constant trickle of health recovery. IV will occupy a nice middle ground.

I don't understand, what you are saying.

Do you know that all we have is one out of the 3 ? So how is Second wind ''free'' as you keep saying ? If you took that spell , you won't be ably to take , neither, Enraged Regen, nor Impending Victory. So how is it free ?

More over, neither of those 3 abilities as I explain in the OP, comes close to all the self heal we have now. It's simple maths so you have to agree with this. And if you agree with this, and also agree with the fact that the other tanks are getting ''more'' self heal, trough no CD WoG, and no CD Frenzied Regen, etc... when we warriors are being nerfed here... there's no balance.

Shield Block won't do that. The magical damage in fight always comes as ''burst'' damage, and very very rarely ''continuous'' damage, thus a 45 sec CD that reduces 75% of the damage ought to be better that a 25% reducing, even if you can keep it up all the time. Also remember that if you did keep it up all the time you simply won't have the rage to shield block as much, as you would otherwise, whilst DKs simple got to spam D Strike, and have everything in one, unlimited self heal and physical damage mitigation. Same for druids and their insane Frenzied Regen, and their passive 25% magical dmg mitigation.

I'm still not seeing the balance here.

[PizzaSHARK]

I don't understand, what you are saying.

Do you know that all we have is one out of the 3 ? So how is Second wind ''free'' as you keep saying ? If you took that spell , you won't be ably to take , neither, Enraged Regen, nor Impending Victory. So how is it free ?

I'm using "free," by referring to resource costs. Second Wind's healing costs no rage, does not cost a GCD, and does not incur any cooldowns. It's free in every sense of the word. Saying that talent points are a cost is, in my opinion, pretty silly - everyone has to make choices between talents.

Assuming we're in a situation where we're receiving constant damage (flag carrying, tanking, etc), Second Wind will recover 120% of our HP every 2 minutes, spaced out over 120 seconds. Enraged Regeneration will recover 30% of our HP every 2 minutes, spaced out over 15 seconds (15% instant, 15% over 15 seconds.) Impending Victory will recover 40% of our HP every 2 minutes, spaced out at 10% every 30 seconds (assuming you never miss the timing.)

These are all well balanced between each other and fairly in-line with self-healing options available to other non-healer classes and specs. For what it's worth, I do agree that bears are looking like they're going to be way too strong - Savage Defense is a very effective physical damage reduction, their inherent magic damage reduction (read: free) is equal to Shield Barrier's reduction, and Frenzied Regeneration offers them a method of turning Rage into health without a real cooldown.

But compared to DKs and Paladins, Warriors seem to be competitive. I don't have good information on Monks, but I'm sure they'll be overpowered as fuck since they're a new class.

[Deleted]

This is not what I'm talking about... I don't care about Prot PVP, or DPS self heal. I'm more interested in PvE Prot Warrior.

Lets make things simple.
Could you give me one mitigation spell, one survivability ability that Warriors have and that DKs or Pallys don't have anything else to balance it out ? I personally don't see any.

In this case, since pallys have at least 3 self heal abilities (which are survivability abilities), and DKs/Druids have as much as they can spam Dth Strike/Frenzied, against 1 ridiculous healing ability for Warriors, in the current Beta set up, there possibly can't be a balance here. As I said, it's simple maths.

On Warrior tanks you'll have to provide more heal than on any of the 3 other tanks, making us the weaker choice. Since Warriors have merely no self heal when compared to the 3 other tanks, shouldn't we have something else, another mitigation mechanism or ability, that the other tanks can't possibly replace with their own abilities (just like we can't possibly replace their greater self heal) ? In other to balance things out ?
This is what I'm trying to show here, ; )

[PizzaSHARK]

This is not what I'm talking about... I don't care about Prot PVP, or DPS self heal. I'm more interested in PvE Prot Warrior.

Lets make things simple.
Could you give me one mitigation spell, one survivability ability that Warriors have and that DKs or Pallys don't have anything else to balance it out ? I personally don't see any.

Why should Warriors get something that no one else has? That kind of design results in "if you don't have <insert class>, you can't beat this fight on heroic," situations, and those kinds of situations kill small raiding guilds.

In this case, since pallys have at least 3 self heal abilities (which are survivability abilities), and DKs/Druids have as much as they can spam Dth Strike/Frenzied, against 1 ridiculous healing ability for Warriors, in the current Beta set up, there possibly can't be a balance here. As I said, it's simple maths.

Pallies get three self heals? Where? Word of Glory consumes Holy Power, which is also the mechanic used for mitigation and threat/damage - either you spend it on a WoG or you spend it on a SHoR, I'm guessing. This could possibly be why Paladins don't have a Shield Barrier equivalent - instead of reducing the damage, they just eat it and patch themselves up. They can take a talent that can give them an instant Flash of Light after two Judgements, but that's not free, and Prot Paladins are not going to have the mana to keep up a full threat/damage rotation and also pop off heals every time the opportunity arises. Base mana pools using current spell costs allow you to pop off maybe three fast heals before you're completely OOM, and the 5% mana every 2(?) sec won't be enough to allow them to casually chain them together. I didn't see a third healing mechanic for pallies.

DKs don't appear to be changing much - it's the other tanks that are being changed to function like DK tanks.

Bears are losing their Block surrogate on their mastery - it's just gonna be straight up armor boosting now. I'm guessing this is why Frenzied Regen is functioning the way it is right now - Savage Defense will work fine for physical bursts, but they won't have an even, effective damage reduction method like Block provides, and I'm guessing that's where they'll dump excess Rage when a Savage Defense isn't needed yet.

I just wanna see how things shake out before we start saying something's broken

On Warrior tanks you'll have to provide more heal than on any of the 3 other tanks, making us the weaker choice. Since Warriors have merely no self heal when compared to the 3 other tanks, shouldn't we have something else, another mitigation mechanism or ability, that the other tanks can't possibly replace with their own abilities (just like we can't possibly replace their greater self heal) ? In other to balance things out ?
This is what I'm trying to show here, ; )

Warrior tanks get a potent self-heal through talents. If it turns out we need something more, I'd much rather see Shield Block or Shield Barrier get buffed than us get another damn heal. Non-healers really don't need to be healing efficiently.

[Deleted]

Pally's 3rd heal is on their last Talent tier. As for the instant flash heal proc, it shouldn't cause ANY mana problems, if they use it wisely. If they start spamming it, then yes, indeed they will be oom after 3 heals. If they use it once every 15-30 sec, it wouldn't cause a single mana problem. It ALONE would still be greater than or equal to our MoP Impending Victory for e.g. And as for DKs and Bears, they have even greater self heals than this, without having to sacrifice any more mitigation than the Warrior.

Why should Warriors get something that no one else has? That kind of design results in "if you don't have <insert class>, you can't beat this fight on heroic," situations, and those kinds of situations kill small raiding guilds.

What I mean here is that since Warriors don't have any survival/mitigation CD or abilities that other tanks can't make up for, why should those other tanks have more healing than us ?

In fact, they can go ahead and remove every single healing ability we have, no problem, as long as we get something in return, to balance things so we don't become weaker than the other tanks. Don't you agree ? The problem is this simply isn't the case right now, and if we remain silent and say nothing, we'll simply get an expansion in which Prot Warrior is weaker than ever.

[PizzaSHARK]

Pally's 3rd heal is on their last Talent tier. As for the instant flash heal proc, it shouldn't cause ANY mana problems, if they use it wisely. If they start spamming it, then yes, indeed they will be oom after 3 heals. If they use it once every 15-30 sec, it wouldn't cause a single mana problem. It ALONE would still be greater than or equal to our MoP Impending Victory for e.g. And as for DKs and Bears, they have even greater self heals than this, without having to sacrifice any more mitigation than the Warrior.




What I mean here is that since Warriors don't have any survival/mitigation CD or abilities that other tanks can't make up for, why should those other tanks have more healing than us ?

In fact, they can go ahead and remove every single healing ability we have, no problem, as long as we get something in return, to balance things so we don't become weaker than the other tanks. Don't you agree ? The problem is this simply isn't the case right now, and if we remain silent and say nothing, we'll simply get an expansion in which Prot Warrior is weaker than ever.

I can agree with that. I wouldn't mind being the tank that can't heal but takes less up front damage to compensate for it.

[Siri]

Until they start doing a numbers pass based on raid encounters (or at the very least level 90 challenge modes or something) I wouldn't worry too much. Having different amount of self heals can be the result of various things such as lower incoming damage overall which in itself could be a result of wanting some difference between how the different tanking classes work. There is so much more at play than "how much can I heal myself for?".

Additionally I always considered Blood Craze a poor talent for tanking, it typically heals for very little and outside soloing and pvp I'd never take it. Impending Victory is situational at best, there are definitely places where it's a good talent but at least in my own experience, people don't take this very often. Second Wind is even more situational than IV is, in fact, the only boss I can recall where this would have been useful is Maexxna since the really dangerous part was when you were stunned.

If you're not using any of these talents (which I'd chance is more common than taking most/all of them) then you'll actually get better self healing in MoP.

[Mammoth]

Again, I have no idea wtf you're talking about. DK's are the premier tanks atm because of all of the self healing they have. They are infact easier to heal than a warrior/paladin.

I have no idea wtf you're talking about. DK's are the premier tanks atm because of all the self shielding they have*. When there's unmitigateable damage, they absorb it like crazy. For example on Hagara, you can't dodge the strikes, but when I'm packing a 150k blood shield on my DK, I'm going to be a lot better off than my warrior. Same applies to the impales on madness.

*Although they absolutely fail on looking cool, because they don't have a badass shield. They look like weak little dps.

As for warrior self-healing, we shouldn't be a self-healing class. I leave that crap to the cheating paladins of the world. If I want healing, I bring a priest. That is how warriors are, and I don't like to see the class gain a lot of self-healing mechanics, in order homogenise classes.