The MMORPG Docrtine: MMORPG Philosophy, etc.

[Shadow Master]

Greets to all.

I've recently started up a blog on the topic of MMORPG design philosophy and figure it might provide a good foundation for some solid discussion on the topic, especially given the current state of the MMORPG genre as a whole. Either that or it'll provide a good foundation for rageposts. But hey, any feedback is good!

With that said, here's my latest entry:

Perpetual Motion Series, Part 1: Items
http://mmorpg-doctrine.blogspot.com/...t-1-items.html

It's the first part of a three-part series wherein I elaborate on what I think is the leading factor of stagnation in major modern MMORPGs.
So if you agree with what you read, disagree with it or have a raging rant to retort with, no time like the present.

[Wilian]

Excellent article right there.

[Shadow Master]

Well, I was actually hoping to spur a discussion on the topic, heh.

I thought I'd run into at least one competitive PvPer or some other player who would be appalled by the idea of players having so much potential for growth that balance sometimes bends over backwards to accomodate it.

[Deleted]

Well, I was actually hoping to spur a discussion on the topic, heh.

I thought I'd run into at least one competitive PvPer or some other player who would be appalled by the idea of players having so much potential for growth that balance sometimes bends over backwards to accomodate it.

This is actually all true though, MMOs aren't really games for competitive PvPers who seek equality and artificially trying to patch it in and sacrificing other important parts won't make it so.

My reasoning behind this is

MMOs need a farm because how could they otherwise charge for it monthly? There's just not enough content otherwise which leads to..

there must be a reason for the farming, like gaining levels, gaining better gear etc. which in turn means that you need to have unbalanced hard to get stuff to make it worthwhile. Otherwise people burn through the content fast, don't have anything to do, even though the developers might add some farming activities with a new pony mount or fluffy bunny ears at the end, most won't bother with it, would still be bored, complain and quit.

[Shadow Master]

there must be a reason for the farming, like gaining levels, gaining better gear etc. which in turn means that you need to have unbalanced hard to get stuff to make it worthwhile. Otherwise people burn through the content fast, don't have anything to do, even though the developers might add some farming activities with a new pony mount or fluffy bunny ears at the end, most won't bother with it, would still be bored, complain and quit.

Good point.

And this is exactly why I believe it's important to develop "perpetual motion" mechanics that make the game feed off of itself through the players, basically creating mechanics that the players themselves perpetuate to create enjoyable content for themselves, instead of patching in static content all the time.

We see the latter situation in every major MMO being released nowadays, and none overcome WoW simply because WoW has grown so large, has so much money, such unrivaled support and keeps putting out new content. Yet even in WoW, that content is still static. You still "burn" through it.

So I guess the general idea is applying sandbox style MMO concepts to theme park MMOs to create a sort of hybrid.

[Shadow Master]

Second article in the series up now:
http://mmorpg-doctrine.blogspot.com/...-2-player.html

Random items are good, but unexpected situations in the persistent game world are even better, I say.
Who needs battlegrounds and arenas when you can have ADVENTURE?

I think I'll go hide in my bunker now to avoid the wrath of competitive PvPers.

[oldglory1977]

To me, its not an either/or question when it comes to having both PvP battlegrounds and your idea of perpetual/random generated events. They are two ideas that can coexist and help eachother out. PvP battlegrounds are great fun and will help players become better at world PvP. I also think PvP balance is important and its just lazy game design when that part of the game looks like a roller coaster, furthermore without balance at the individual level it will only cause more problems on the ganking adventures seen in perpetural world PvP. Also a balanced and competitive PvP scene would help a game's replay value and its shelf life much like random events would as well, so my ideal MMO would have both.

In fact, I think it would be a grave mistake for a massive multiplayer online game to not have quick match PvP games. Its something players want to do when they level and at endgame, even those that aren't competitive professionals want to play on somewhat equal footing versus another player like battlegrounds have. They just want some quick action versus players rather than having to spend hours on a ganking adventure. Gamers wants to jump right into the action especially if they're paying for it, and there's nothing wrong with that especially if you have a busy schedule.

[Windry]

Are you guys serious? That was like the worse read ever. It basically said, "games lose their magic once we've done everything in it, so we need to make everything random gear at the end. Screw balance, we should let people continue to farm regular mobs for legendaries +"

[Shadow Master]

To me, its not an either/or question when it comes to having both PvP battlegrounds and your idea of perpetual/random generated events. They are two ideas that can coexist and help eachother out.

Well, the problem with such an approach is that players then just resort only to "quick match" PvP. Same for instanced PvE.
It's quite the task to make the persistent game world appealing when instant (albeit less rewarding due to its repetitive nature) gratification is available.

Are you guys serious? That was like the worse read ever. It basically said, "games lose their magic once we've done everything in it, so we need to make everything random gear at the end. Screw balance, we should let people continue to farm regular mobs for legendaries +"

Heh, not quite. And not just at endgame. The general idea is that there should be self-perpetuating content that keeps a game fresh for ages without static content updates being patched in all the time.

I suppose the real challenge is keeping the game in question a theme park MMORPG while adding dynamic elements, since total sandbox MMOs tend to not have the appeal of story based MMORPGs with questing and dungeons. Yet at the same time, those very story based MMORPGs only manage to provide repetitive, stale content due to an obsession with restrictions and balance.

It's ironic then that to bring more variety to a modern theme park MMORPG, you need balance... not the in-game type, but a balance between static and dynamic aspects of an MMORPG.

[Deleted]

Was expecting to read an article full of narrow minded idiocy, ended up reading an article full of truth and well thought out views. 100% good read.

[Shadow Master]

Finally got around to finalizing this little series of articles:
http://mmorpg-doctrine.blogspot.com/...t-3-world.html

Hopefully the point got across coherently. It's a complex issue though, so I doubt anyone could really encompass it wholesomely without missing something or other.

Still, any and all feedback is appreciated.

Also, can't help but wonder just how much MoP will bring to the table in terms of self-perpetuating content.
They sure are going to a lot of effort to engage players in the persistent game world again, which is nice to see.
Removing that Have Group, Will Travel perk seems like a nice start, but feels like it might be too little, too late. Hopefully not!

[Deleted]

Some interesting ideas about items, while I feel that randomised loot would work well in some situations, and definately not in others, I dont actually find it that interesting a system really.

Some cons: (based loosely on a WoW style raid drops system).
-Soulbinding would mean that grinding for the right random stats would just prolong the RNG loot agony. (We raided this boss for 3 hours and all I got was this useless T-shirt). RNG can be terrible sometimes. For example my 25man guild in ICC saw the caster dps trinket drop ONCE in about 7 months of farming. Making random items BOE would stimulate the economy and make the system more interesting for sure.
-Often people would roll on a new item they already owned just for a few better stats, perhaps taking it from somebody who really needed it. Especially in PUGs this would happen all the time. Perhaps even people would roll on items worse than what they have, just because the cant suddenly do the maths in 10 seconds.
-Being unlucky might mean your character is gimped and unable to progress with the rest of the guild.

I actually think the 'kill boss, get equipment' system is fairly stupid anyway. A lot of the time it doesnt make sense. Why should every boss always drop 100g and 4 items? I would prefer a system that was more organic and based on crafting. For example:

Raid bosses would have items that made sense to be available on their dead body or in the surrounding area. For example dragon scales, crystals from it's cave walls etc. Killing humanoids would yield equipment, or perhaps parts of damaged equipment. Bosses would be guarding chests perhaps, or an armory. Dragons would have large gold drops etc.

Having crafting play a more active role would mean that economy would be stimulated, boss drops would make more sense, players could buy top tier items without having to do the boss (at astronomical prices though I assume ) It also encourages more communication and planning within a guild. On the downside it could create some guild drama, but maybe the loot distribution could be handled differently, perhaps like GW2 where each player gets seperate loot.

[Tarien]

An interesting read.

The bit that I agreed with most were those points that relate to player equality and balance. I have been saying for a number of years now that what MMORPGs are missing today is heroes, people that stand out from the crowd, whether they be famous for their PvE, PvP, crafting or political exploits MMOs today just don't have very many heroes because we're all just another sheep in the herd. Balance is fine across class mechanics, but should be constrained to that starting point.

I found the example of archers on the hill vs the warrior a good illustration of how developers and players deal with a negative result, but you should have gone further and turned the situation on its head: While that warrior had a negative experience, the six(?) archers had a positive experience of defending their territory/objective.

But all of these issues are complex. Loot is a messy issue, no one wants to wait forever for their BiS item(s) to drop, RNG can destroy the game for you. World PvP is all well and good, but can be frustrating trying to get from one point to another, or complete levelling objectives.

I'll write a longer reply later, I have a few lengthy pieces I have started writing and never finished that I think would make for a good response

[Shadow Master]

Indeed, items/loot is likely the most complex issue of the lot.

The general idea I was trying to relay with the concept of "a lot of everything for everyone" is that you shouldn't try to replace any particular looting system totally with some other system, thus "forcing players to wait ages for a BiS drop" but rather have both a reliable system of loot and a totally randomized system all at the same time.

Why have one or the other? Why limit players' enjoyment of item acquisition to some particular method, like farming dungeons/raids or farming NPCs in the wild, when you can have both, as well as crafting and foraging and just overall having a whole huge array of methods of acquiring equally powerful/useful/fun items?

[Tarien]

Why limit players' enjoyment of item acquisition to some particular method, like farming dungeons/raids or farming NPCs in the wild, when you can have both, as well as crafting and foraging and just overall having a whole huge array of methods of acquiring equally powerful/useful/fun items?

You know RIFT has something like this implemented, there are items from dungeons and raids, but there are also items from open world content too to match the first couple of raid tiers.

But anyway, this is an excerpt from a long winded commentary on MMOs I made right after playing SWTOR, it made numerous comparisons between SWTOR and SWG but these two paragraphs I feel stand well on their own:

Developers today strive for balance. Our classes are constantly adjusted so that our ability to deal and take damage are similar, our healing is similar. Anywhere you go, I can go. We can all earn or craft the same armour, the same items. Anything you can do or obtain, I can also perform or earn.

Developers today strive for balance and I have to ask why? Why do we all want to be the same as everyone else, digital sheep in a virtual flock attended by shepherds who want to ensure we do not stray and that we are all identical. Why are we all desperate to be clones and limiting ourselves to what everyone else can achieve when we could be so much more?

Loot is a really difficult topic, because even as a fan of a more random loot system that in theory has greater potential, there are still concerns of waiting forever to get the item you want because RNG shafts you. TERA actually has a really good solution to this: All loot is BoE until you use it. Thus if a legendary Sword of the Warrior drops, but you're a mage, you can just sell it and put the cash towards a Staff of the Mage that dropped for some other guy. Or you could trade it.

Best system I ever saw was actually Star Wars Galaxies, for three reasons.

First of all, EVERYTHING was crafted, even the shitty weapons you start out with you make yourself. Crafting becomes valuable because there is no other way. Weapons do not drop from enemies, only components drop. This makes crafting immensely valuable from the outset.

Secondly the components themselves had randomised stats, which gave the potential for incredibly good items to be crafted from them. So while you might not get your epic weapon, you got a set of dragon livers (yes they have more than one) to use to make a weapon, maybe more than one.

Thirdly all the resources were extracted automatically by mining facilities placed by players, the materials had stats, certain weapons required certain stats and the better the stat the better the weapon. Resources would change weekly to some new random material, and over time certain resources would appear that were exceptionally suited to certain weapons or armor. What this meant was that over time weapons and armor got better as crafters stockpiled resources with awesome stats, in a similar fashion to ilvls raising over time, but this happened naturally without developer interaction.

Obviously there were downsides, such as having to place buildings to mine minerals (not something you could do in WoW), the requirement for vast empty spaces for hundreds of miners to place mining facilities, and so on. Not something you can easily tack on.

But I imagine that crafting weapons based on components is feasible, a system is already sort of in place in WoW and RIFT, WoW because you create legendaries from components that drop from certain enemies (usually) and in RIFT there is the augments system. Making these components drop from open world enemies would be ideal, imo. Randomise their bonuses perhaps.

I should really make a more cohesive post, but I have been deprived of games all weekend so I will leave you with that for now

[Deleted]

I really wish I had played SWG back then. Seems like a lot of it fits my liking for MMO systems.