[MoP] Misc Demonology Notes

[PlatedPriest]

not gonna lie. this is the first time in a long time that i have played a class with a rotation that isn't as easy as 1.2.3. lol

i too would like to know the answers to ^ his questions!!!

[Fallensaint]

I don't speak Sim. So i need some help interpretting.

*Does this sim imply GoServ is better than GoSac when min/maxing around 2-minute cooldown stacking (GoServ+DS+Bloodfury)?

Currently, GoServ is simming better for Demo. Lines B, C, and D are basically spec-dependent actions, so if you change the spec in the profile Simcraft will correctly use your talents.

*So molten core procs should be banked until we drop out of Metamorphosis and spent while in caster form, but what about when we are in execute range? I assume if the target has really long execute we still use Touch of chaos to burn Fury and then we spam Soul Fire in casterform; but if the target will die soon we might as well spend the fury on Soul Fire, right?

In execute range, you spam Soul Fire in Meta. The reason you don't do that above execute range is that MC stacks are limited, but Decimation effectively makes them unlimited.

*the line [G run_action_list,name=aoe,if=num_targets>5 ] is vague, i get that you use AoE on 5 targets or more but what does that mean? It would also be nice to see someone siming whether Immolation Aura alone, or ImmA+Void Ray or ImmA+Harvest Life or ImmA+ToC is the most efficient use of fury during AoE.

That line essentially tells Simcraft to use the alternate AoE rotation (which wasn't included in that quote) if there's more than 5 targets.

*Do we use Hand of Guldan or Chaos Wave rotationally? I assume the line [N hand_of_guldan,if=!in_flight&dot.shadowflame.remains<travel_time+action.shadow_bolt.cast_t ime] means using a HoG->SB->HoG combination, does it mean you do or do not stack the Shadowflame Dot?

Currently, we only use HoG rotationally, and CW isn't used at all. However, it looks like CW now generates a guaranteed Molten Core stack when it hits, which I don't think Simcraft includes yet. That might be enough to make it worthwhile to use at very high levels of fury (it was a slight DPS loss when I last tried simming it ages ago, before it got a damage buff). And yes, the sim stacks the DoT.

[Deleted]

*Does this sim imply GoServ is better than GoSac when min/maxing around 2-minute cooldown stacking (GoServ+DS+Bloodfury)?

*So molten core procs should be banked until we drop out of Metamorphosis and spent while in caster form, but what about when we are in execute range? I assume if the target has really long execute we still use Touch of chaos to burn Fury and then we spam Soul Fire in casterform; but if the target will die soon we might as well spend the fury on Soul Fire, right?

*the line [G run_action_list,name=aoe,if=num_targets>5 ] is vague, i get that you use AoE on 5 targets or more but what does that mean? It would also be nice to see someone siming whether Immolation Aura alone, or ImmA+Void Ray or ImmA+Harvest Life or ImmA+ToC is the most efficient use of fury during AoE. Also

*Do we use Hand of Guldan or Chaos Wave rotationally? I assume the line [N hand_of_guldan,if=!in_flight&dot.shadowflame.remains<travel_time+action.shadow_bolt.cast_t ime] means using a HoG->SB->HoG combination, does it mean you do or do not stack the Shadowflame Dot?[COLOR="red"]

1. yes
2. the sim says: use soulfire (if moltencore buff is up) if meta isn activated OR the targets HP is below 25%, so during execute you are using soulfire in meta too
3. http://elitistjerks.com/f80/t130019-...panda_edition/
4. chaos wave is the most useless spell atm, so we won´t use it all. Leave meta right before your second HoG charge has recharged and use them during casterform. shadowflame is a stacking dot, so you´ll try to clip it, which is quite difficult atm because HoG needs 2(??) seconds to hit the target

[Grubjuice]

Currently, we only use HoG rotationally, and CW isn't used at all. However, it looks like CW now generates a guaranteed Molten Core stack when it hits, which I don't think Simcraft includes yet. That might be enough to make it worthwhile to use at very high levels of fury (it was a slight DPS loss when I last tried simming it ages ago, before it got a damage buff). And yes, the sim stacks the DoT.

Thanks Fallensaint and Valyna, you are both very helpful.

I curious about how we are supposed to time the application of Shadowflame. It may be because my gear is just 378 PTR premade gear with very low levels of haste but I cannot cast two Shadow Bolts between the first the second application of Hand Of Gul'dan. if i try the first Shadowflame DoT expires. If i only cast one Shadow bolt I think I cam clipping at least one tick off the first Shadowflame.

[Deleted]

After reading ALL 913# post and levelled my lock in beta at 90, i'm a bit confused with rotation and priorities.

1) Out of Meta the purpose is to built up DF as fast as possible.
- Opening with Coe and Cor, using Imp swarm, Go Service, Hog and Bolt And SF when Molten core is up.
2) After reaching 1000 DF ---> Meta
- Doom up, and re-cast doom immediately for Extend the duration?
- After Doom what should i cast? Touch of chaos till 0 DF, or just close to 500 and leaving Meta?
3) What is the rotation for Aoe?
Meta + chaos weave + carrion swarm + Immo aura + harvest of life?
4) do u know any addon for tracking Dot, Update for Beta?

[Grubjuice]

I do it differently.

• I don't wait so long to put up Doom, so i stance dance: I enter meta, cast doom, and then drop meta long before i have 1000 fury, fairly early on in the fight, I also do this to refresh doom whenever there is one tick left (usually around 13 seconds remaining).

• I stack my Grimoire of Service demon into my Dark Soul/Bloodfury/trinket/potion macro rather than using it right off the bat.

• I don't like Imp Swarm so i just use passive Wild Imps. but that is a personal choice.

• and I always use two charges of HoG separated by either two instant spells or one instant and one Shadow bolt [i.e. HoG(1)->Corruption->Shadow bolt->HoG(2) or HoG(1)->Corruption->{Meta-> Doom ->Cancelaura Meta}->HoG(2)] in order to layer two stacks of Shadowflame.


I do it like this:

a) precast Shadow Bolt (+/petattack)->
b) Curse of the Elements ->
c) HoG(1)->Corruption->[Meta-> Doom ->Cancelaura Meta]->HoG(2) ->
d) Follow priority till ~1000 fury (Corruption>Doom>(HoG+xx+HoG)>SF+MC>SB)
e) super cooldown macro:
/cast Blood Fury
/cast Dark Soul
/cast (potion)
/cast (on use Trinket)
/cast Grimoire: Felguard
/cast [nostance] Metamophosis
/cast [pet:Felguard] Felstorm
f) Doomguard
g) Refresh Doom at <30 seconds remaining but before Dark Soul ends
h) Touch of Chaos Touch of Chaos Touch of Chaos Touch of Chaos Touch of Chaos Touch of Chaos Touch of Chaos Touch of Chaos
i ) Drop meta, follow priority till ~1000 fury (Corruption>Doom>ToC (above 950 fury)>(HoG+xx+HoG)>SF+MC>SB) etc.


• Fury management is like an arcane mage's mana regeneration, maintenance and burn phases: between CDs of Dark Soul you neither want to cap nor drain your primary resource; during Dark Soul you drain all of your primary resource.
-(Build-up) During the build-up you want to follow the priority (Corruption>Doom>Toc (above 950 fury)>(HoG+xx+HoG)>SF+MC>SB) until you are sitting at about 900~1000 fury,
-(maintenance) At this point you want to mantain your Fury, hovering between 750 and 950 fury, entering meta every time you approach 1000 fury to burn a little excess off, or if you need to refresh Doom and/or Corruption. The trick is to have ~1000 Fury right as your next DS becomes available.
-(Burn) Dark Soul is very much like an Arcane Mage's Arcane Power/Burn phase where you pop all your cooldowns and spam the shit out of your main nuke and drain all of your primary resource.

• you may enter meta 2-4 times between bouts of Dark Soul but never for more than a few seconds at a time. If you have a random Mastery, Intellect or Crit proc during your maintenance phase like Foul Gift of the Demon Lord or Power Torrent, use meta during those procs. Haste procs are better taken advantage of in Caster form for Spamming Shadow bolt.

• Ideally you should use Touch of Chaos in Meta to extend corruption, but sometimes you have to re-apply corruption from caster form.

• Before the Execute Phase, never use Soul Fire in meta, instead use Soul Fire in Caster Form to replace Shadow Bolts whenever you have Molten Core Procs. In the Execute Phase (<20%) you Soul Fire in both Caster and Meta.



---------- Post added 2012-07-31 at 11:29 AM ----------

For AoE I use

a) (before combat) Meta -> Cursed Auras:Aura of the Elements -> Cancel Meta
b) (while getting into range) HoG -> (~3xCorruption and Felstorm) -> HoG ->
c) (in melee range) Hellfire -> HoG -> Hellfire ->
d) (fury is high) Meta -> Immolation Aura -> Harvest Life -> Harvest Life -> ImmA
e) Felstorm on cooldown
f) Cursed Auras:Aura of the Elements whenever it's about to drop.


• If you aren't talented into Harvest Life, use Void Ray while Imma us running, but it tends to hit fewer targets.
• I never use chaos wave except when i know it will definitely kill something, you get 100 Fury for every killing blow you land so it's great for the weakest of weak trash.
• I use Carrion Swarm strictly as a knock back (not glyphed) and since tanks hate it when you knock all the mobs away from them i avoid Carrion Swarm in most situations. But you can Glyph it for a what may be a dps increase. I have not tested it.

[Kaizers]

Doing 25 man testing as demo, impressions coming in a bit.

Multi-dotting is suprisingly easy and Void Ray + Corruption cleave is pretty strong. I love Archimonde's Vengeance for this spec, it's so much passive damage and being able to Bargain + Vengeance is pretty ridiculous.

lol Vengeance was 10% of my damage on Protectors.

Killed Protectors and waiting on the next test... Also wondering if Meta effects AV.

[Strafer]

You know what would be nice, if you actually turned into Meta form automatically once you hit 1000 Demonic Fury.

[Grubjuice]

You know what would be nice, if you actually turned into Meta form automatically once you hit 1000 Demonic Fury.

hmm, i dunno, sometimes things that run on automatic are really annoying.


What if corruption just fell off the target, and half a second later my demon's and Wimps' basic attacks push me past 1000 fury and all of sudden i am in demon form and can't apply corruption, so i need to drop meta to put corruption back up before i go back into to meta to burn my fury.

Would I be locked out of meta for 10 seconds if i was automatically put into stance, but needed to drop it to apply Corruption? would i be allowed to apply corruption to targets even if i was auto-meta'd?

---------- Post added 2012-08-01 at 12:46 PM ----------

Quality of Life Changes:

1) A 5 minute cooldown that instantly grants us 500 fury (or 2 shards for Aff or 2 embers for Destro).
2) doomguard is now a 5-minute cooldown but for a shorter duration and with a little less damage
3) Corruption is castable in caster or meta, but only ever benefits from caster's mastery multiplier
4) Doom is castable in caster or meta but always benefits from meta's mastery multiplier and still costs fury.
5) Fury generates faster when below 500 fury, but caster form does more damage when above 500 Fury
6) Curses and Cursed Auras are both useable in Caster and Meta but their relative costs are the same.
7) Wrathguard does more damage than Felguard. Seriously wtf?!

---------- Post added 2012-08-02 at 09:59 AM ----------

I feel bad because i keep posting follow-ups to my own posts but, , ,

I tested my pets last night and I think Imp/Fel Imp is still bugged by the Glyph of Demon Training, because they are way too much dps on single target compared to other minions. (like 9099dps on Fel Imp versus 5888 dps on Wrathguard, 5 minute intervals each, Wrathstorm on cooldown, no Imp Utilities used)

Also wrathguard is not living up to his 20% increase over Felguard. I tested 5-minute intervals of both WG and FG on two level 80 Target dummies (using Wrathstorm or Felstorm respectively on cooldown)and wrathguard 5888 dps and Felguard did 5645 dps (that puts Wrathguard at only 104.3% of the dps of FG on two targets.

Also felstorm does more damage per hit than Wrathstorm so i would guess on a true AoE situation (5+ targets) then Felguard will pull ahead of Wrathguard.

I feel a little sad now when ever i see another demonology warlock on the PTR, every single Demo lock i have seen so far uses wrathguard and i just want to whisper them and say "You're a fool for using Wrathguard, he's useless!"

[xskarma]

I tested my pets last night and I think Imp/Fel Imp is still bugged by the Glyph of Demon Training, because they are way too much dps on single target compared to other minions. (like 9099dps on Fel Imp versus 5888 dps on Wrathguard, 5 minute intervals each, Wrathstorm on cooldown, no Imp Utilities used)

Also wrathguard is not living up to his 20% increase over Felguard. I tested 5-minute intervals of both WG and FG on two level 80 Target dummies (using Wrathstorm or Felstorm respectively on cooldown)and wrathguard 5888 dps and Felguard did 5645 dps (that puts Wrathguard at only 104.3% of the dps of FG on two targets.

Also felstorm does more damage per hit than Wrathstorm so i would guess on a true AoE situation (5+ targets) then Felguard will pull ahead of Wrathguard.

I feel a little sad now when ever i see another demonology warlock on the PTR, every single Demo lock i have seen so far uses wrathguard and i just want to whisper them and say "You're a fool for using Wrathguard, he's useless!"

You need to test Imp/Fel Imp with a stopwatch and a set amount of damage. When I did that I found out that damage meters stop calculating because of the big gaps between volleys of firebolts, which makes the dps go up outside any proportions. When checked for a set amount of damage I found that the time the take is actually pretty much the same as they are without the glyph, so no actual DPS increase.

[Deleted]

Demonology warlock sounds like arcane mage 2.0 nowadays

Stay above 750 Fury alle the time (aka 75% mana), and only dump it during burst phase (arcane power), then regain it and keep a certain level (evocation)

makes me sad;(

[Grubjuice]

Demonology warlock sounds like arcane mage 2.0 nowadays

Stay above 750 Fury alle the time (aka 75% mana), and only dump it during burst phase (arcane power), then regain it and keep a certain level (evocation)

makes me sad;(

You are correct that fury management is very similar to an arcane mage's mana cycle, HOWEVER there is a huge difference in complexity.

Demonology locks have a very nuanced and complex priority system, unlike Arcane mage which can have 75 to 95% of all damage coming from a single spell (arcane blast).

Demonology
a) has to manage a pet
b) has to roll two DoTs (Corruption and Doom) which are both subject to stat-snapshotting,
c) has to monitor one proc (Soul Fire) which can stack (i.e. be pooled), and its proper use and timing varies through out a fight
d) has a very sticky Hand of Gul'dan strategy where you hit HoG then cast two spells, then cast Hog again, and
e) has a crazy-complex list of AoE abilities (Hellfire, Hand of Gul'dan, DoT-cleave, [Harvest Life], Immolation Aura, Felstorm[Wrathstorm][Service Felstorm], Void Ray, Chaos Wave, Carrion Swarm)

Arcane Mages were never like that. even with the addition of Mage Bomb, Arcane Mages are still extremely simple to play.

Really, Demonology Locks, of all the lock specs in this expansion, retain the most 'complex' flavor of Cataclysm warlocks, but now also have a very strong underlying thematic principle to their rotation like Arcane Mages, with out any danger of Arcane's monotony.

---------- Post added 2012-08-03 at 09:32 AM ----------

You need to test Imp/Fel Imp with a stopwatch and a set amount of damage. When I did that I found out that damage meters stop calculating because of the big gaps between volleys of firebolts, which makes the dps go up outside any proportions. When checked for a set amount of damage I found that the time the take is actually pretty much the same as they are without the glyph, so no actual DPS increase.

I suspected that, i will try again using that method.

I will say, however, that CDShaidar tested all his pets with World of Logs, which should account for Imps intermittent casting, and Imp/Fel Imp was still stronger than the other demons.

Here is his test:
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/e...urce/?target=1

[Deleted]

U are right Grubjuice, Demo warlock will be much harder to play, especially during hardmode progress, where u have to watch for other things then a perfect rota

with some pratice, i was able to pull off ~50k dps over 20m at lvl 85 (my lvl 90 buggs/dc´s every time i try logging in) - does demo really scale that bad?

w.abload.de/image.php?img=wowscrnshot_080312_16veuhn.jpg (cant post links, just add ww)

During 25 man beta testing i was able to maintain >= 5 in skada, but we had some randoms with us, so i think Demonology´s dmg is fine, the rotation is just to complex to maintain during difficult encounters

[Grubjuice]

U are right Grubjuice, Demo warlock will be much harder to play, especially during hardmode progress, where u have to watch for other things then a perfect rota

with some pratice, i was able to pull off ~50k dps over 20m at lvl 85 (my lvl 90 buggs/dc´s every time i try logging in) - does demo really scale that bad?

w.abload.de/image.php?img=wowscrnshot_080312_16veuhn.jpg (cant post links, just add ww)

During 25 man beta testing i was able to maintain >= 5 in skada, but we had some randoms with us, so i think Demonology´s dmg is fine, the rotation is just to complex to maintain during difficult encounters

it could use some tweaking, but a lot of warlock players from cata enjoy complexity and Demo appeals to that. If they removed the necessity to stance dance in order to put up Doom and Corruption, and they removed the layering effect of Shadow Flame and replaced it with a rolling DoT (like Explosive Shot or Devouring Plague) then it would reduce a lot of unnecessary complications in the rotation.

Demo is suprisingly mobile (at least during meta phases) and has good timed burst and INSANE AoE, so as long as it scales competitively it should be mechanically viable even in hard mode.

I think Destro and Affliction both have much simpler rotations (Destro nearly has the 1111112 rotation of an arcane mage), if you prefer a simpler rotation, both of those would appeal.

as for scaling, the balancing process is still happening at this very moment. Everything is up in the air.

[Deleted]

e) has a crazy-complex list of AoE abilities (Hellfire, Hand of Gul'dan, DoT-cleave, [Harvest Life], Immolation Aura, Felstorm[Wrathstorm][Service Felstorm], Void Ray, Chaos Wave, Carrion Swarm)

I really wonder why they gave so many different AoE tools to Demo, it seems too much.

[Deleted]

i am not saying that its too hard to pull off in heroic modes, just wanted to point out, that many other classes can do the same dmg (if not even more) with wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyy less effort - and if i have to choose between class A doing the same dps then class B, but class A has the more simplified rota, id switch to class A for progress, just because its easier to maintain, esp. as raidlead.

Even tho Demo´s mobility is just silly - runspeed, circle, gateway, leap (u even switch to meta form when u use leap, thats cool) and u have more def cd´s then a fucking tank .....

But if u mix this all together and project this into a raiding scenario, its a lot of things to take care off - not to mention AV abuse, on which u have to keep an eye.

I easily can see new players fail really bad with this specc

[Grubjuice]

I easily can see new players fail really bad with this specc

Definitely. Takes practice.

[darthades]

it could use some tweaking, but a lot of warlock players from cata enjoy complexity and Demo appeals to that. If they removed the necessity to stance dance in order to put up Doom and Corruption, and they removed the layering effect of Shadow Flame and replaced it with a rolling DoT (like Explosive Shot or Devouring Plague) then it would reduce a lot of unnecessary complications in the rotation.

i like complexity, only play demo and unholy because most spec,classes in the game bore me to tears.

So, doom on meta is cluncky, it feels horrible, is not complex is just tedious,
.

[Grubjuice]

i like complexity, only play demo and unholy because most spec,classes in the game bore me to tears.

So, doom on meta is cluncky, it feels horrible, is not complex is just tedious,
.

perhaps i am not sure how you are distinguishing 'tedium' from 'complexity'

but i would call casting Metamorphosis->Doom->Cancelaura [metamorphosis] 'complexity' and in particular i would call it 'unnecessary complexity' because it involves employing 3 actions to get one effect, whereas I would call chain-casting Incinerate for Destro or Arcane Blast for Arcane 'tedium' because they are repetitive.

I agree that Unholy is great spec, I like its balance of nuance and requirement of skill without tedium.
I think we also agree that Doom is annoying, whether we call it complex or clunky, or whatever.

[Deleted]

Although I felt very wary about MoP's demo at start (being a demo on live and liking it for it's complexity/calculated bursts), I really came to enjoy it. It's not as straning as the live version yet it's still, for me, as complex.

What I enjoy about DPS is mainly adaptable rotations (i.e. adapting your spells to the situation) and demo seems to be the perfect spec in that aspect as of now. I like to spend every GCD thinking "What should I do next ?" and not "Meh, I'll just incinerate".

The damage may be a bit high for now (even if, to be honest, for the lack of reliable sims and, no offense, seeing blizzard as kids playing in a sandbox concerning DPS simulations, I don't think anyone can make any definite assumption - except that hunts are OP, of course -) but if the gameplay doesn't change, hats off to blizzard on this spec (even though they had to sacrifice destruction on an altar to achieve it).