Expertise, really?

[eschatological]

Well, as I said, changing the hit works for PVP, but still doesn't fix mail itemization for them. Right now, as it stands, this dodge thing is a huge problem in PvP, though. If they give us a positional bonus for keeping distance in PvP only, that lets them make expertise a desirable stat for us, streamlines mail itemization, and keeps us from getting screwed in PvP because a feral can dodge 90% of our shots.

It *does* fix the mail itemization problem. It allows them to design mail with expertise on it, because hunters will still be able to use it, albeit converted to hit. The same way spriests/boomkins/ele shamans wear spirit gear, not for the spirit but because it converts to hit.

---------- Post added 2012-05-06 at 07:12 PM ----------

Ferals and rogues dodge everyone else in PvP today. I'm never behind a player with any sort of skill unless he's REALLY desperate to run away. Death knights with 5% parry on their stats realisticly parries 30% ingame. That's a much bigger issue than hunter ALSO being able to miss that scatter in pvp, like us missing that MS and stacks fall off, or worse, missing that throwdown. ideal world - almost no random events and perfectly balanced pvp based 100% on skill. never gonna happen

The difference is, you can SOMETIMES get behind the target. When you DO hit your throwdown, you can get behind your target. You can constantly circle strafe your opponent in the hopes he slips up and offers you his back.

Like someone else said earlier in this thread, the only way a hunter will see a target's back is if they're backpedaling towards him. You cannot be in range AND have the freedom to move around the target quickly. It's simple geometry.

[candle86]

Yall like blizzard cares about us hunters, we arn't frost or arcane mages, therefore we are an afterthought, and they wont fix it

[knusern]

Okay but what me, and many others here are trying to say is that while yes, the 0.005% of times where melee would have their back on the target, and hunters do not, is not such a big issue. How much do they dodge after we reach the cap on 85 players/mobs now btw?

[Chrysia]

Okay but what me, and many others here are trying to say is that while yes, the 0.005% of times where melee would have their back on the target, and hunters do not, is not such a big issue. How much do they dodge after we reach the cap on 85 players/mobs now btw?

Most players in PvP will have a base 5% dodge. Tanks, ferals, and rogues can have much much higher dodge though, to the point that it can be almost impossible to hit them.

This change, without some form of tweaking, will make hunters exceptionally useless against many melee. While I disagree with the end of the world, doom and gloom tone of many of the posts in this thread, I do agree that hunter PvP will suffer unless changes are made.

[bandet]

Okay but what me, and many others here are trying to say is that while yes, the 0.005% of times where melee would have their back on the target, and hunters do not, is not such a big issue. How much do they dodge after we reach the cap on 85 players/mobs now btw?

Melee in PvP, who aren't complete idiots, spend a lot more than .005% of the time behind the target.

In fact that statement just screams ignorance on the subject. Please stop commenting.

[asharia]

Well, there was a blue post about it. They were definitely aware, but are hesitant about fixing it. I will be putting together something to submit to them on the matter, and i suggest other people concerned with the issue do the same. Just make it constructive, don't whine and QQ.

[Kalcheus]

Well, there was a blue post about it. They were definitely aware, but are hesitant about fixing it. I will be putting together something to submit to them on the matter, and i suggest other people concerned with the issue do the same. Just make it constructive, don't whine and QQ.

And for the love of Khaz don't bring up the realism argument.

[resare]

They should have increased the hit cap, like they did with caster classes, and left hunters alone. The one thing many melee classes can do is stun their target to get behind them, e.g. a rogue can 5 CP Kidney, Shadow Dance, and then spam Ambush and completely destroy an opponent, but with hunters having no on-demand stun and Binding Shot is such a piece of crap, we can't possibly do that. That leaves just BM Hunters to Intimidate and spam behind their target for 3 seconds, which is probably closer to 1 second if you factor in run time since no hunter in their right mind will Intimidate and Disengage behind their target.

Saying that there's old stories of heroes dodging bullets/arrows is such a fucking insult to everyone who plays semi-seriously, "We really can't figure out how to fix hunters, so instead we're going to post something condescending."

---------- Post added 2012-05-06 at 07:56 PM ----------

Ferals and rogues dodge everyone else in PvP today. I'm never behind a player with any sort of skill unless he's REALLY desperate to run away. Death knights with 5% parry on their stats realisticly parries 30% ingame. That's a much bigger issue than hunter ALSO being able to miss that scatter in pvp, like us missing that MS and stacks fall off, or worse, missing that throwdown. ideal world - almost no random events and perfectly balanced pvp based 100% on skill. never gonna happen

PVP DK has way more than 5% parry, that's why they feel like they parry 30% because self buffed it's closer to 12-13%. Then factor in that strength modifies parry rating and you'll see things like Crusader procs increase parry as well as Pillar of Frost buffing strength and in effect parry, so when you have a frost DK with horn, Kings, Crusader proc, and Pillar of Frost you're looking at ~25% parry rating.

[Chrysia]

They should have increased the hit cap, like they did with caster classes, and left hunters alone. The one thing many melee classes can do is stun their target to get behind them, e.g. a rogue can 5 CP Kidney, Shadow Dance, and then spam Ambush and completely destroy an opponent, but with hunters having no on-demand stun and Binding Shot is such a piece of crap, we can't possibly do that. That leaves just BM Hunters to Intimidate and spam behind their target for 3 seconds, which is probably closer to 1 second if you factor in run time since no hunter in their right mind will Intimidate and Disengage behind their target.

Saying that there's old stories of heroes dodging bullets/arrows is such a fucking insult to everyone who plays semi-seriously, "We really can't figure out how to fix hunters, so instead we're going to post something condescending."

I'm sorry, but if you read my posts in this thread, I agree with the idea that, without tweaks, this will suck for hunters in PvP. I didn't find a single thing that GC said "condescending." People brought up "real people can't dodge bullets/arrows!" He said, "well, some people a long time ago could. It's irrelevant, though, in a world where a standard sized human can block an attack from a giant." That's not condescending, it's countering a poor argument.

[asharia]

And for the love of Khaz don't bring up the realism argument.

Yes. I was just about to edit my post. Stop arguing realism, they dont care.

[Rhyseh]

Seriously dodging AND parrying is an issue that melee classes have had to deal with in PVP since Adam was a boy. To address this they stack expertise.

Trying to land a blow on a good rogue with evasion up is almost impossible 1v1 for most melee classes. Evasion is supposed to be an oh shit button, much like deterrence. Structuring an argument around the premise that you won't be able to continue to smash a class with a survival cooldown up is just silly.

Unless you are a rogue or a feral druid melee spend very little time behind their target unless their opponent are plain horrible. Even if you are a feral or a rogue your target is stunned anyway negating all avoidance anyway....

Hunters are getting some nice buffs and they are also being subjected to one half of the parry/dodge combo, meaning they still don't have to deal with parry CD's from DK's or Warriors. Personally I feel the buffs eclipse this change and that hunters are still lucky in not having to deal with the full avoidance table.

[eschatological]

Without evasions, rogues are sitting around 30% dodge. And like we said, hunters are more poorly equipped to deal with dodges THAN ANY OTHER CLASS. I wonder when other classes will acknowledge the inherent difference between a hunter, kiting at 35-40 yards out, getting a concussive dodged, versus a rogue getting a hemo (or even a 5 pt KS) dodged. Any melee worth their salt can find a moment to get behind their opponent to dish out the 5 pt KS, the throwdowns, etc, and then unload.

[Pool of the Dead]

Hunters having to get more then just 4% hit in PvP, just like other classes?

Jesus Christ...how Horrifying.

[chuck123]

Hunters having to get more then just 4% hit in PvP, just like other classes?

Jesus Christ...how Horrifying.

You sir are completely missing the point here or you are deliberately trolling.

[Chipskinesen]

Feels like we could use a new thread for the PVP part of this as half the people repete the same arguments why hunters will have trouble in PvP (completely agree on that) and then all the new people on the topic repete that melees deal with it so hunters should as well or that it's not a issue in PvE...

Of course expertise don't really matter in PvE as a boss or mob have a FIXED amount of dodge/parry/miss etc. Getting a PvE cap is not a problem no matter what stat it is about, as damage etc get balanced about PvE and the PvE caps.

In PvP on the other hand as hunters currently works there just wont be any point to attack a class with high dodge. Let's say you meet a 3v3 with healer + rogue + feral. Then you probably need to peel one of the melees or they will just kill something however as they got dodge you as a hunter does less damage, mabye not that big of a problem. But if the peeling is you as a hunter using conc shot, scatter to get him away from the player they are attacking and the feral/rogue just keep dodging those attacks then you more or less lost the game at once. Damage can probably be tuned enough in PvP, even if rogues obviously will be more imortal during evasion than they already are, but when it comes to cc and slows hunters need some kind of refund or a anti dodge attack as been said over and over in this thread for those who read a few pages.

And again for those who come here wanting to say "stack expertise", have fun getting enough expertise in PvP gear to reduce a rogues dodge from almost 30% to close to 0%. I highly doubt it is even possible for hunters to get that much expertise and if you manage it you'll have to low crit anyway.

[Flaks]

The problem isn't avoidable CC/shots. The problem is avoidance. There's absolutely no reason for feral/enhance/rogues to have that much passive dodge when they have better active cooldowns than every single other class in the game.

This entire argument holds merit ONLY from a PvP perspective unless you're subject to parry as well. As a warrior, I completely see your issue with this in PvP in that you are unable to get behind your target like melee can. While I do believe being at a range is counter enough, I also think that a more elegant solution can be proposed such as just a removal of passive avoidance.

PvE is more fun because you are absolutely never subject to RNG in an encounter if you've hit the right caps. If PvP was more skill based by removing passive avoidance the game would be all the better for it. Crit is enough RNG to make the game fun. Avoidance is purely frustrating and not fun AT ALL in PvP.

[Darnassian]

The problem isn't avoidable CC/shots. The problem is avoidance. There's absolutely no reason for feral/enhance/rogues to have that much passive dodge when they have better active cooldowns than every single other class in the game.

Clearly you've *never* raided on a leather wearing toon. While plate heads can get taken down to 30% by a WW mechanic or a tank messing up and getting them cleaved, the rogue or feral druid is one shot unless they *dodge* it. Has nothing to do with PvP and everything to do with PvE mitigation of damage being a soft target in melee range. Rogues have additional tools like feint but those only work with a cast timer. Plate wearers get their mitigation from a lot of armour and a little parry. Leather melee is a lot of dodge and little parry and armour. It comes to play in the example I made or as simple as leveling; if a rogue didn't have extra dodge they'd be at a bigger disadvantage simply questing, compared to say a ret paladin.

Avoidance is purely frustrating and not fun AT ALL in PvP.

So in a fight having a stat which helps you overcome someone dodging, parrying, and blocking your attacks (all nice intricacies to a fighting game) isn't fun? You just want critical hits? That's not only lame it's purely 1 dimensional

[Exauras]

Just give me back my passive dodge and a baseline stun and we'll call it even.

[Chipskinesen]

Clearly you've *never* raided on a leather wearing toon. While plate heads can get taken down to 30% by a WW mechanic or a tank messing up and getting them cleaved, the rogue or feral druid is one shot unless they *dodge* it. Has nothing to do with PvP and everything to do with PvE mitigation of damage being a soft target in melee range. Rogues have additional tools like feint but those only work with a cast timer. Plate wearers get their mitigation from a lot of armour and a little parry. Leather melee is a lot of dodge and little parry and armour. It comes to play in the example I made or as simple as leveling; if a rogue didn't have extra dodge they'd be at a bigger disadvantage simply questing, compared to say a ret paladin.


So in a fight having a stat which helps you overcome someone dodging, parrying, and blocking your attacks (all nice intricacies to a fighting game) isn't fun? You just want critical hits? That's not only lame it's purely 1 dimensional

So blizzard is giving leather users dodge chance so that they have chance to survive a cleave? You're never supposed to get hit by something that one shots you as a one shot ability means you stood where you are not supposed to stand. Having dodge might save you once or twice but it's all rng. Unless you have over 50% avoidance (unlikely as a dps) there is a bigger chance that you actually dies than dodge it anyway.

[Arazen]

They should have increased the hit cap, like they did with caster classes, and left hunters alone. The one thing many melee classes can do is stun their target to get behind them, e.g. a rogue can 5 CP Kidney, Shadow Dance, and then spam Ambush and completely destroy an opponent, but with hunters having no on-demand stun and Binding Shot is such a piece of crap, we can't possibly do that. That leaves just BM Hunters to Intimidate and spam behind their target for 3 seconds, which is probably closer to 1 second if you factor in run time since no hunter in their right mind will Intimidate and Disengage behind their target.

Saying that there's old stories of heroes dodging bullets/arrows is such a fucking insult to everyone who plays semi-seriously, "We really can't figure out how to fix hunters, so instead we're going to post something condescending."[COLOR="red"]

No melee class stuns their target just to get behind them, because you can't dodge/parry while stunned anyway. Same with hunters. Inform yourself before you rage about something and read the thread, because this was already discussed.

Here is the part of Blizzard's post for the serious players:

We're still looking at expertise, dodge and running a lot of PvP tests right now. We do think it's a bit disingenuous to argue that melee are always behind their targets in PvP. Just ask any Backstabbing rogue or Shredding druid. Overall, we're still comfortable with the idea of ranged attacks able to be dodged. [...]
If it's an undue burden for PvP, then that's another thing (though we think the jury is still out on that), but arguing it's not realistic is a bit... er... dodgy.

Just read the whole thing. Someone brought up the "reality-argument" and they just commented on that.


I'm really curious, though, why Blizzard decided to give us straight buffs in survival (selfhealing, Explosion Trap glyph, min range removal), while "nerfing" us only against agi melee. We don't have serious problems with any plate melee on live, so this sounds a little bit unfair. I'm also sad, that a skilled mage can no longer outplay a hunter by dead-zoning him.
I think, that dodge will be annoying for 1vs1, but not so much in teamplay. We'll have to see, how it plays out. Right now, hunters seem really powerful in beta, so let's hope, that it stays that way.