GW2 Roles. An explanation.

[Cuchulainn]

You realize the concepts of control, support, and damage come directly from the GW2 site right? I simply explained them more. They are more of combat roles that need to taken care of then a role for a character is all.

ROLES, sure, but not DEDICATED ROLES. Meaning everyone can perform every role. This has been posted a million times. There's simply no discussion here at all.
I commend you for a clean and pure intentioned OP, but the fact is this thread will only attract people arguing "no roles vs trinity". I can smell the shit storm a' brewing already.

/umbrella.

[DrakeWurrum]

People need to stop looking at these roles and just realize that... it's combat. Living, breathing, natural combat.

That's all that matters.

[Robbomb116]

People need to stop looking at these roles and just realize that... it's combat. Living, breathing, natural combat.

That's all that matters.

Disagree that it's all that matters. In a couple of the group events I experience, there were people who only focused on damage and nothing to little of the others. Providing control and support makes the encounters much easier and more fluid. Yes it natural combat, but having all the pieces to the puzzle still helps. =)

[Cuchulainn]

Disagree that it's all that matters. In a couple of the group events I experience, there were people who only focused on damage and nothing to little of the others. Providing control and support makes the encounters much easier and more fluid. Yes it natural combat, but having all the pieces to the puzzle still helps. =)

Can't use shitty players as a crutch, yo.

[Robbomb116]

Can't use shitty players as a crutch, yo.

Yes, shitty players. But it was the first BWE. Not everyone has the combat system down, so I see no harm in a post that may enlighten them.

[DrakeWurrum]

Disagree that it's all that matters. In a couple of the group events I experience, there were people who only focused on damage and nothing to little of the others. Providing control and support makes the encounters much easier and more fluid. Yes it natural combat, but having all the pieces to the puzzle still helps. =)

IMO, it's actually impossible to provide no control or support, because of what weapon skills provide.

---------- Post added 2012-05-01 at 09:28 PM ----------

The key difference between the holy trinity and what GW2 has is that NOBODY goes into a fight thinking "Do we have enough control? How about support? Okay, we got too much support, some of you focus more on damage."

Nobody's going to do anything remotely close to that. If you've got ways to control the enemy, you're going to use it. If you can support your allies, you're going to do it. If all you care about is damage, you can do that. (You'll still have abilities applying cripples and blinds and dazes and bleeds and poisons and whatnot, that can't be avoided).
It doesn't really matter how you help the group, what matters is that you participate.

Well, it's not that it doesn't matter how, what I'm getting at is that you use every tool at your disposal. You're not going to refuse to use a move that Cripples just because it isn't amazing damage (except maybe as a Thief, but that's a little different). You're not going to grab utility that you don't want to use.

[Robbomb116]

IMO, it's actually impossible to provide no control or support, because of what weapon skills provide.

---------- Post added 2012-05-01 at 09:28 PM ----------

The key difference between the holy trinity and what GW2 has is that NOBODY goes into a fight thinking "Do we have enough control? How about support? Okay, we got too much support, some of you focus more on damage."

Nobody's going to do anything remotely close to that. If you've got ways to control the enemy, you're going to use it. If you can support your allies, you're going to do it. If all you care about is damage, you can do that. (You'll still have abilities applying cripples and blinds and dazes and bleeds and poisons and whatnot, that can't be avoided).
It doesn't really matter how you help the group, what matters is that you participate.

Well, it's not that it doesn't matter how, what I'm getting at is that you use every tool at your disposal. You're not going to refuse to use a move that Cripples just because it isn't amazing damage (except maybe as a Thief, but that's a little different). You're not going to grab utility that you don't want to use.

Totally agreed.
There were sometimes where i'd notice no one else was applies stack of vulnerability so I'd switch from my Scepter/Dagger set on my necro to my axe/focus. I specifically gave up control to stack vulnerability which helped the group out.

[dgkiller]

There are still classes that can take more of a kicking than others, so therefore there are still tanks.

Every class has the potential to take as much as other classes. I can make an elementalist with high survival just like I can for a guardian. However the game is made so you get the hell out of the way of big hits, help others when they get low (by throwing CC or with boons or with skills that makes them avoid hits). There is some form of healing which is very low and meant to prolong long fights instead of shooting up fast in health. And damage is the basic that is necessary for any games like this.

Ppl will need to throw away what they are used to in other mmos and learn the new system. If you don't pay attention when fighting you can go down extremly quickly.

[Ryquis]

People seem dead set on suggesting that class flavor is enough to constitute a "role" in a conventional sense when its not. The difference between getting one shot and two shot because you can "take more of a beating" from a boss designed to kill you is the 2 seconds you have to pop a heal before he finishes the job. The only role is damage, and the different flavors are the types of supports you can offer. You can get a small AoE HoT in there sure, but is it more valuable than a well timed guardian pop to let you block an attack? Or more valuable than a clutch mesmer invis saving your ass? Groups will revolve around amassing people that play the game well and you'd bet your ass I'd take a group of 5 dagger only thieves against a water elementalist that doesn't know how to dodge out of the red rings. There will always be "optimal compositions" so long as each class has abilities that do slightly different things, but the hindrance of having to rely on someone to fill a role to play the game is gone, because everyone can do everything.

[StationaryHawk]

I was fortunate enough to never see anybody trying to tank or heal, but I have no doubt that there were people out there trying to.

[dgkiller]

The key difference between the holy trinity and what GW2 has is that NOBODY goes into a fight thinking "Do we have enough control? How about support? Okay, we got too much support, some of you focus more on damage."

Nobody's going to do anything remotely close to that. If you've got ways to control the enemy, you're going to use it. If you can support your allies, you're going to do it. If all you care about is damage, you can do that. (You'll still have abilities applying cripples and blinds and dazes and bleeds and poisons and whatnot, that can't be avoided).
It doesn't really matter how you help the group, what matters is that you participate.

Well, it's not that it doesn't matter how, what I'm getting at is that you use every tool at your disposal. You're not going to refuse to use a move that Cripples just because it isn't amazing damage (except maybe as a Thief, but that's a little different). You're not going to grab utility that you don't want to use.

Easy to play, hard to master.

doing random debuff just to do them is not playing at it's best, you can but you won't be as effective. GW2 isnt like WOW where you use your highest damage abilities on a priority whenever the cooldowns come back up, you actually want to save the effects of snares/root/stun/daze/knockback/etc... for when you do need them.

[DrakeWurrum]

Easy to play, hard to master.

doing random debuff just to do them is not playing at it's best, you can but you won't be as effective. GW2 isnt like WOW where you use your highest damage abilities on a priority whenever the cooldowns come back up, you actually want to save the effects of snares/root/stun/daze/knockback/etc... for when you do need them.

Indeed so. You don't want to do things randomly, I'm just saying that smart players will use every tool at their disposal. Unlike in WoW, where a DPS player is "punished" for off-healing the group, because he is meant to specifically do damage and only damage.

[Aelreth]

Somebody riddle me this.

How does everyone looking out for their own ass support team play in a PvE setting?

[DrakeWurrum]

How does everyone looking out for their own ass support team play in a PvE setting?

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Blinding_Powder
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Powerful_Aura + http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shocking_Aura + http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Zephyr%27s_Boon
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Virtue_of_Justice + activation
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/For_Great_Justice
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Med_kit
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mark_of_Blood
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sun_Spirit

Don't make me list every single ability for you when the answer is obvious. When people aren't restricted to one role, they often are actually more than willing to help each other. The only reason I refused to drop Healing Rains as an Enhancement Shaman in WoW is because of it interrupting my DPS rotation, when DPS was my most important job (which, admittedly, isn't that important in a 25-man setting - who cares about the one guy out of 25 people?).

On top of that, group play in GW2 is specifically designed for 5-man grouping.

[Guilegamesh]

Somebody riddle me this.

How does everyone looking out for their own ass support team play in a PvE setting?

If you don't like GW2, good for you. You don't need to post in every thread asking people to justify the game's mechanics to you.

[Aelreth]

Im not talking about game mechanics. I know what shit does.

Just interested in the psychology of it.

[DrakeWurrum]

Care to enlighten me?

There's a wiki, and tons of GW2 gameplay footage on Youtube.

Figure it out for yourself. If you're too stubborn and devoted to other games to actually try to like GW2, it's not our problem.

[Aelreth]

If you don't like GW2, good for you. You don't need to post in every thread asking people to justify the game's mechanics to you.

If you dont like my posts theres a handy ignore feature.

[DrakeWurrum]

Im not talking about game mechanics. I know what shit does.

Just interested in the psychology of it.

The psychology of it is fairly obvious: What's STOPPING you from supporting your group?

We know healers want to support the group. We know tanks support the group.

So what you're saying is that DPS players refuse to support the group because... what, they're asshats or something?

The truth of the matter is that the good DPS players do everything they can to support their raid and guarantee victory, but in WoW, why should they bother?
The tank has everything he needs to handle threat. The healer has everything they need to keep people alive.

Why help them? So you focus on your job. Your contribution to the other two roles is meaningless.

In GW2, this is not the case. You applying Protection or Fury on allies or Cripple or Daze on enemies will actually have a meaningful impact.

[rezoacken]

Somebody riddle me this.

How does everyone looking out for their own ass support team play in a PvE setting?

WoW pve is a forced system that gives somewhat of an illusion of team play. You dont play as a team, you just play your roles in a very limited setup, 1/2 tanks 2/3 healers and 5 dps (depending on the encounter). Thats it. If you dont follow these rules you fail no matter how good you are. Thats not what teamplay is in essence. The 10 best dps players having fantastic teamplay will still fail.

Good teamplay in WoW is seen in the arena and sometimes in PvE, its when you go out of your way to do something that will help your teammate and make the group more efficient. Like a paladin ret throwing a BoP to save his teammate's ass.

The same thing happens in GW2, there are plenty of ability that can help or save your allies.