Do people really think warcraft is about good humans vs bad orcs?

[Count Zero]

People tend to organize things into dichotomies for easier cognitive conceptualization. Black/White, Good/Bad, Up/Down, Hate/Love, Male/Female, War/Peace. When in reality, the only true dichotomy is Life/Death (and even that will probably only get less and less clear as our understandings of things increase).

But it's just so much easier to say, "Oh, here are the good guys and here are the bad guys", in one's head, than to say, "Well, Group A and Group B share many similarities, actually, and their conflict largely revolves around mutually-conflicting self-interest-based competition for scarce resources, complicated by the ambitions of the various individuals in leadership positions and sub-factions within each faction vying for internal influence and their own personal goals".

One of my favorite things about WoW is how realistic the politics are. Or at least reality-influenced, rather than the fiction staples of "good vs evil". Even the non-Horde/Alliance forces are not completely clear-cut (although you might have to dig outside of the game itself for these perspectives -- but I've read some interesting theories regarding the motivations behind the Burning Legion / Titans / Old Gods).

[Trassk]

The first two Warcraft games were specifically about evil demonic orcs coming and invading the humans' land and heroic humans fighting them off (or at least trying to fight them off). That's why. The original Alliance heroes were Khadgar, Alleria Windrunner, Anduin Lothar etc. The original Horde hero units are names like Cho'gall and Ner'zhul and Deathwing. You're essentially just stepping in at the middle of a plot development and acting like you've been there all along, otherwise you would be cognizant of this fact.

Up until Warcraft 3 the lore was simple, orcs bad, alliance good, defending homeland.

Actully I do know it. I read the books and looked at the comparison between the books and the game, and as it stands the novels flesh out the characters from those games a lot more. But regardless, my point is making the comparison to those looking at the lore NOW and all thats occured after those games.

And you've pretty much highlighted a point I was wondering, that there are people who actully base all the hordes actions, even the new horde, on what the old horde did in the past, and to put it bluntly, you can't get over it. Its kind of like someone who hates all germans for what happened in world war 2 or hating the japanese the same.

So what your saying is because of those events that happened with the corrupted orcs in the past, players are unable to look at how the horde changed and can only regard past events in relevence to what has happened, ignoring that the horde helped stop the legion at hyjal and faught the Qiraj, the scourge, and even having an orc help the aspects save the world from being destroyed.
But I guess its easier to ignore all that and only regard the bad aspects of the horde for some people.

[Kerath]

Speaking for myself when looking at the Horde and Alliance as portrayed in WoW, I certainly don't see something as simple as good and evil.
Truth be told, it looks to me like the Alliance and Horde have very similar goals (the safety and prosperity of their various peoples), just divergent ways of going about achieving those goals.

[ambigiouslynamed]

Neither is "good" or "bad". Both have done some pretty rotten things. It just so happens that the orcs blindly followed their leaders and drank the blood of Mannoroth. The Horde, however, is typically viewed as the "bad" guys due to their brutal customs and the Forsaken's methods (which Garrosh disagrees with).


It wasn't wrong to attack, but the Alliance murdered the civilians of Camp Taurajo as well, and then proceeded to loot them. I'm not saying the Horde has never done that (they have), but the Alliance have as well.

it wasn't the Alliance that looted Taurajo, they were disobedient soldiers, leave the alliance out of it

---------- Post added 2012-05-03 at 07:00 PM ----------

How can there be a "good" and "bad" side when those 2 concepts are purely perception? I am sure the Orcs firmly believe they are justified in their actions against the humans the same can be said for the humans. Kinda hard for it to be black and white when the only color is grey.

well...orcs ruined their own world and are essentially trying to conquer azeroth so they can use it. evil? maybe. self centered? you bet

[mordale]

I kind of liked the addition at the end of the Goblin scenario. The cinematic shows you fleeing Kezan - Your character is being transported on a SLAVE ship to Kalimdor for Galleywax (who, I still should be hunted down by the prior slaves, in stead of hanging out in a resort type home in Azshara) the goblins come upon a battle between the Alliance and Horde ships.

Crew Member: "Captain, who are they?"
Captain: "It doesn't matter. Our orders are to capture the Horde target at all costs." "No witnesses."

Let me get this straight. You don't know who it is but you attack? Yeah...ok...good guys...

On the other hand, it also pointed out that Goblins are being sold as slaves in Kalimdor. Could be to the horde but, most likely not.

considering that the horde does keep slave labor(peons), most then likely yes.

[ambigiouslynamed]

Actully I do know it. I read the books and looked at the comparison between the books and the game, and as it stands the novels flesh out the characters from those games a lot more. But regardless, my point is making the comparison to those looking at the lore NOW and all thats occured after those games.

And you've pretty much highlighted a point I was wondering, that there are people who actully base all the hordes actions, even the new horde, on what the old horde did in the past, and to put it bluntly, you can't get over it. Its kind of like someone who hates all germans for what happened in world war 2 or hating the japanese the same.

So what your saying is because of those events that happened with the corrupted orcs in the past, players are unable to look at how the horde changed and can only regard past events in relevence to what has happened, ignoring that the horde helped stop the legion at hyjal and faught the Qiraj, the scourge, and even having an orc help the aspects save the world from being destroyed.
But I guess its easier to ignore all that and only regard the bad aspects of the horde for some people.

many ppl hold the horde responsible for the pre thrall horde because a) they don't like the "orc corrupted" retcon/excuse b) orcs have shown little to no penitence for their actions, too little time has passed for the current orcs to not have been in it c) the current horde isn't exactly saints and certainly tolerate sylvanas' actions, conquering gilneas a NEUTRAL nation because they wanted a port and more

[Spellsword]

Horde nowadays are the mary sue hell alliance is probably more horde than horde now.

[Pantupino]

It's just that Thrall (and his orcs) are the spitting image of the Noble Savage, A type of character that appeared heavily in 19th century literature who is a godless heathen that can still teach us much about ... being noble, or ... liking nature... or some such crap. (See "Last of the Mohicans" for a prime example of this). I'm not sure what Horde fans really think of Thrall. I know Chris Metzen is clearly in love with his creation, but Thrall and this orc nobility doesn't ring for me. It's Snoresville at best, and it seems like lazy writing at other times.

I think you are right but in my case, I love how Garrosh want to domain the world of Azeroth... BUT I keep thinking of Thrall, he IS the savior of the world... and he was leader of the horde. Orcs can be as "bad guys" as "food guys"... It's really complicated...

[Trassk]

Horde nowadays are the mary sue hell alliance is probably more horde than horde now.

yeah because all the endless whining from alliance in recent months really give the image of savage warriors.

[Spellsword]

yeah because all the endless whining from alliance in recent months really give the image of savage warriors.

Not sure where you're going with that, since it has absolutely no significance in-game and the whining is just another QQ fad.. aka people crying about something they don't even give a shit about out of boredom. unewbro?

[Deficineiron]

One of my favorite things about WoW is how realistic the politics are. Or at least reality-influenced, rather than the fiction staples of "good vs evil". Even the non-Horde/Alliance forces are not completely clear-cut (although you might have to dig outside of the game itself for these perspectives -- but I've read some interesting theories regarding the motivations behind the Burning Legion / Titans / Old Gods).

[/QUOTE]

I have always thought that a realistic response to the wrathgate attack on horde and alliance forces by forsaken with a NEW PLAGUE to kill ALL LIVING would have been placing them on every faction leader's (horde and alliance' 'need to kill' list as soon as possible. giving sylvanas back the undercity, I don't think would have been allowed to happen in a realistic environment, she obvoiusly knew they were working on a plague for years, and either is incompetent and cannot control the undead or was complicit.

[mvaliz]

yeah because all the endless whining from alliance in recent months really give the image of savage warriors.

Yeah, the game writers weren't at fault at all with that...

[candle86]

This does seem to be the mindset for people who don't bother reading quests, never played the older games, or don't bother reading up on the lore. I know two people who have played for about 4 years but don't bother with any of the story line. They don't understand the raids or the bosses within them.

They both play Horde. It's understandable when someone who has never played WoW or any Warcraft game, refer to the Orcs as "The Evil Side". But these two have played for years and still say "I enjoy playing the bad side". They don't understand that there is no good or evil between the Horde & Alliance, it's all politics. I've even tried explaining it, but they don't understand. It's frustrating sometimes, but if they're happy just running around killing things without any regard for why they're doing it, then that's their business.

I personally never played any previous Warcraft games before WoW, but I enjoy story lines. So whenever I found events or characters I didnt understand, I would read up their background.

oh the orcs are bad, they came through the dark portal, burned the kingdom of Stormwind to the ground, tried to over run the other human kingdoms. The majority of the Orcs in lore that I'm aware of are still warmongering, and where kept in check by thrall. And then lets look at the forsaken, Wrathgate anyone, the siege of Gilneas, the assault on hillsbrad. Yea they use WMD's that turn people into undead, thats not bad at all. And cmon the trolls, they are drug uses, and by defination are there for bad guys. The blood elves are the closest the horde has to a non evil race.

[Caliverne]

Wrathgate anyone,
the siege of Gilneas, the
assault on hillsbrad. Yea they use WMD's that turn people into undead
The blood elves are the closest the horde has to a non evil race.

*Cracks fists*

That was the burning legion (derp)

They were asked or better yet ordered by Garrosh to attack. (According to the short story, Garrosh was using them in the attack before Sylvanas got back from icc). Oh and thats war.

They cut off a dwarfs head, used fel magic, and have GNOME SWEAT shops under their city.

*sigh* the people that play this game.... learn the lore plz.

[esmifra]

oh the orcs are bad, they came through the dark portal, burned the kingdom of Stormwind to the ground, tried to over run the other human kingdoms. The majority of the Orcs in lore that I'm aware of are still warmongering, and where kept in check by thrall. And then lets look at the forsaken, Wrathgate anyone, the siege of Gilneas, the assault on hillsbrad. Yea they use WMD's that turn people into undead, thats not bad at all. And cmon the trolls, they are drug uses, and by defination are there for bad guys. The blood elves are the closest the horde has to a non evil race.

Because Taurens are vicious right?
And troll although very tribal are far from vicious.

Aside from warmongering Orcs and grudged Undead the other races are far from evil. I'll say 50/50.

[Caliverne]

Because Taurens are vicious right?

Grimtotem.

[ijffdrie]

Grimtotem.

Weren't they allied with the alliance?

[Caliverne]

Weren't they allied with the alliance?

Yea....good luck with that

[ijffdrie]

Yea....good luck with that

No seriously, they were allied with the alliance for a while between wotlk and cata. It's one of the weirder events that took place in the story during those years.

[Albert the fish]

to be completely frank Hu..well the Alliance was the good guys until WC3. at that point their inherent racism became almost rabid and their views narrowed significantly, they were the bad guys parading themselves as the good guys.
The Horde at this same time were portrayed as the new good guys, victims of multiple situations that took their control away from themselves and were trying to find their way back to safety and sanity.

With WoW we started to see both sides draw closer and closer to the centre pretty continually, pretty slowly but continually. at around Wrath they both blurred into the gray area and neither could be labeled anything even so dramatic as "more good than evil" or "more evil than good" let alone "bad guys" or "good guys".
following Wrath both sides seem to be generally falling to the more evil side of things, justifying everything with pragmatism and necessity, whether these claims are true or excuses are not really important.

not only are none of us good guys, but the entire game is currently turning into Lawful Evil fighting against Neutral Evil.(the Horde isn't really Chaotic Evil with their strict adherence to their leaders. well the Gobbos are Chaotic) this will probably change with MoP, but we'll see.
Right now they seem to be sitting generally at Lawful Neutral for Alliance with Law and Order being more important than whether those laws are just or fair, and the Horde being closest to True Neutral being concerned with little except personal codes of honor and pragmatism.

---------- Post added 2012-05-04 at 10:23 AM ----------

Weren't they allied with the alliance?

still are i think.