Shadow back to CATA rotation

[Ossi]

Once again assuming no secondary stats.

360 second fight (6 min) / 8 second MB CD = 45 orbs.

VT total ticks = 360 / 15 = 24 * 5 = 120 ticks

120 ticks * 15% Mind Surge proc = 18 orbs

63 total orbs / 3 = 21 DPx3 casts.

21 casts * 6 seconds per cast = 126 seconds

126 seconds / 360 second fight = .35 or 35% uptime for DPx3


DPx3 = 35% uptime
DPx2 = 52.5% uptime
DPx1 = 105% uptime

I was going to do that calculation before but I realize it's wrong. you need to take into account that the mind surge proc makes the MB on CD again. So:
case 1: no surge proc
MB at 0s, MB at 8s, MB at 16s....blah blah blah
case 2 surge proc every 12 sec (shud prob happen with a 30% haste)
MB at 0s, MB at 8s, surge at 12s - > MB(now MB is on CD and the next will be at 20s), MB at 20s, surge(MB) at 24s, MB at 32s, surge at 36s.

and, you'll also take into account that we will start rotation prob with VT and pain, so a few more sec lost of DPS (also if MB is CD, VT/pain is gonna fall off, you'll likely to reapply the DOT first)
so I guess a 90%uptime (instinct, no math involve) if we do DPx1

[smokeajay]

I was going to do that calculation before but I realize it's wrong. you need to take into account that the mind surge proc makes the MB on CD again. So:
case 1: no surge proc
MB at 0s, MB at 8s, MB at 16s....blah blah blah
case 2 surge proc every 12 sec (shud prob happen with a 30% haste)
MB at 0s, MB at 8s, surge at 12s - > MB(now MB is on CD and the next will be at 20s), MB at 20s, surge(MB) at 24s, MB at 32s, surge at 36s.

and, you'll also take into account that we will start rotation prob with VT and pain, so a few more sec lost of DPS (also if MB is CD, VT/pain is gonna fall off, you'll likely to reapply the DOT first)
so I guess a 90%uptime (instinct, no math involve) if we do DPx1

Yeah, I took the simple math approach because it is easier to do. I could spend an hour writing the program and modeling the rotation, but at this point in time it really isn't worth the effect because Shadow will change more in Beta before 5.0 is live.

[Kaesebrezen]

Yeah, I took the simple math approach because it is easier to do.

Then think about this now:
35% uptime for a dot that does 100% damage vs. 52,5% uptime on a dot that does 66% damage.

[Ananan]

Another flaw in the calculation is that it doesn't factor in the cast time of Mind Blast. A Mind Blast doesn't land on the target every 8 seconds, it lands every 9.5 seconds.

[Ossi]

Another flaw in the calculation is that it doesn't factor in the cast time of Mind Blast. A Mind Blast doesn't land on the target every 8 seconds, it lands every 9.5 seconds.

and surge MB is instant, this is getting too complicate to calc in beta, and since the damage scaling of orbs on DP isn't out, we can't discuss how many orb should we cast our DP on. But the removal of SA proc orb did make the whole thing less random!

[smokeajay]

Then think about this now:
35% uptime for a dot that does 100% damage vs. 52,5% uptime on a dot that does 66% damage.

360 * .35 = 126 * 100 (dmg per tick) = 12,600

360 * .525 = 189 * 66 (dmg per tick) = 12,474

360 * 33 (dmg per tick) = 11,880

---------- Post added 2012-05-10 at 08:59 AM ----------

Another flaw in the calculation is that it doesn't factor in the cast time of Mind Blast. A Mind Blast doesn't land on the target every 8 seconds, it lands every 9.5 seconds.

Yes, I know and thought about this when thinking about modeling it, but I did fail to account for this in the simple math. Epic fail.

---------- Post added 2012-05-10 at 10:29 AM ----------

-- Shadow Word: Death now grants a Shadow Orb if the target is below 20% health.
-- Divine Insight shadow effect modified - Periodic damage from your Shadow Word: Pain has a 15% chance to reset the cooldown on Mind Blast and cause your next Mind Blast within 12 sec to be instant cast.
-- From Darkness, Comes Light Surge of Darkness has been reworked - Periodic damage from your Vampiric Touch has a 15% chance to cause your next Mind Spike to not consume your damage-over-time effects.
-- Devouring Plague now scales from 16.6% of Spell Power, down from 50% of spell power.
-- Mind Surge (NNF) has been reworked - Reduces the cooldown of your Mind Blast based on your Haste.

-- Orbs on SW: D? Really? I rather have the RNG of SAs.
-- I liked the Mind Flay buffing Mind Blast effect even if it would never stack to 10. It could have easily been balanced to stack more.
-- I rather stick with the SW: D proc. I've never been a fan of Mind Spike except for add nuke/pvp.
-- Saw this one coming. Now rebuff VT.
-- I like this change, but I don't like the changes they made to make this so; however, this just increases the stat weight of haste slightly without making crit or mastery more desirable.

[Aevus]

I actually like the changes. I'm glad they are making Mind Spike useful. It does increase the critical strike chance for Mind Blast by up to 90%, no? And considering how crit will be hard to come by in Mists, seems like a good feature. With all the procs, Mind Blast will be a frequent cast, hence a quick orb generation, and as soon as we reach 20% niche we get double orb generation entering execution state thanks to SW: Death. DP nerf was deserved and everyone saw that coming. The only questionable spell that remains is Mind Flay...maybe it becomes more of a levelling/pvp spell.

[smokeajay]

I actually like the changes. I'm glad they are making Mind Spike useful. It does increase the critical strike chance for Mind Blast by up to 90%, no? And considering how crit will be hard to come by in Mists, seems like a good feature. With all the procs, Mind Blast will be a frequent cast, hence a quick orb generation, and as soon as we reach 20% niche we get double orb generation entering execution state thanks to SW: Death. DP nerf was deserved and everyone saw that coming. The only questionable spell that remains is Mind Flay...maybe it becomes more of a levelling/pvp spell.

Mind Spike: It has its uses in quick burn downs of adds. Yes, Mind Spike stacks up to 3 times at 30% each; however, I seriously doubt it will ever happen that you get 3 procs quick enough to ever stack it that high. Also, it lowers the stat weight of Crit which is already leagues behind Haste, but also leagues above Mastery.

Keeping the proc on SW: D where it acts as if < 20% would be much better. Since the procs acts as if the the target is under 20% that would be an orb generated (or could be) and you still keep the execution state. Win-win.

And like I said, MF stacking a buff made it more useful and could have been tweaked to stack faster and lowering the buff it gave Mind Blast.

All I see are downsides (minus the Haste effecting the cooldown of Mind Blast).

[Deleted]

The haste=lower cooldown on Mind blast looks sick.

[Deleted]

Yeah no procs anymore if we don´t want to lovin it ^^

[Ossi]

I'll miss the SW: D proc but I like the MS proc also, synergy in the rotation. (the MF stack 10 is not too practical indeed)
The orb from SW: D <20% is just meh. But it did make us more bursty in exec time.
now MB free cast is with pain, GREAT for PVPers!
as for the new mind-surge, our best stat is 100% going to be haste, with MS proc I guess crit will scale even lower.
so HASTE>MASTERY>CRIT?

[smokeajay]

I'll miss the SW: D proc but I like the MS proc also, synergy in the rotation. (the MF stack 10 is not too practical indeed)
The orb from SW: D <20% is just meh. But it did make us more bursty in exec time.
now MB free cast is with pain, GREAT for PVPers!
as for the new mind-surge, our best stat is 100% going to be haste, with MS proc I guess crit will scale even lower.
so HASTE>MASTERY>CRIT?

At this point in time, Mastery is so horrible that Crit will still be higher.

[Juicebox]

At this point in time, Mastery is so horrible that Crit will still be higher.

Aye. Mastery is pretty much the same as crit, except it affects less spells. Therefore it's worse. Problem is if they buff it to be better than crit, it's still just an extra crit. I think they should make the procced version of the spell also able to proc things such as the instant MB. That would mean they can keep the mastery numbers lower than the crit, but the benefit from mastery could still outweight crit during certain circumstances. If that makes any sense :P

[yurano]

I'm 100% sure that DOT refresh will be our first priority
DPx3 > VT(if not on/going to fall) > SW: P(if not on/going to fall) > DP(if not on) = MB > SW: Death > MF > DP(if already on) > SW: P (if already on) > VT (if already on)

it really depends if we should try to our best to keep DP 100% up time or we are waiting for 3 orbs.
since it last 6 sec with MB cd 8 sec , and VT proc is 15% (so 6-7 tick of VT will give u a proc), I'd say it's uptime can reach 90%

Assuming that shadow orbs are only generated by MB, then you wouldn't put DP (3 orbs) before dots.

Instead:
VT > SW: P > DP (3 orb) > MB > SW: D (proc?) > MF