[Megathread] Elder Scrolls Online

[Remilia]

By way of comparison, this quest was put into WoW years before either Rift or SWTOR launched and was more interesting and fun than any quest in either game at launch:

http://www.wowhead.com/quest=10639

And Wrath/Cata/MoP are quantum leaps in quest design compared to launch SWTOR and Rift quests.

The one gets overshadowed by the rest. Something I don't get with how WoW's questing is any better.

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post19605646

[llDemonll]

You both need to stop fighting. If you want to argue your points take them to PM, don't flood this topic with them. People tried to steer the conversation back to lore, and it's now turned into you two arguing back and forth again. You're clearly not going to convince each other that one viewpoint is right so stop ramming your heads into a wall.

[SamR]

The one gets overshadowed by the rest. Something I don't get with how WoW's questing is any better.

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post19605646

On the contrary, unique interesting quests are what we remember. Every zone is full of kill/collect/click quests, but it's the fun unique ones that stick in our memory. I don't remember a lot of quests from Jade Forest, but I do remember the Scouting Report quests and being an elite sniper.

You could make a long list of boring kill/collect/loot quests in Dragonblight, too, but I'll always remember the zone for the Wrathgate chain and Battle for Undercity. IMO, the most epic questline and ending quest I've ever played in a MMO.

Like I said, there was pretty much nothing memorable at all in all the quests I did leveling to cap in both SWTOR and Rift.

[wynterlyn]

Hi, games are designed in specific ways. Rift is designed to get people to level 60 and get engaged in max level content. WoW is designed to do the same thing. SWTOR was apparently designed for people to level multiple characters and experience the max level content. By their own admission, and by their design decisions reinforcing playing alts as a legitimate and promoted way of playing, that means that you are "forced" to play them to experience the content. I'll put scare quotes around forced, as they aren't holding a gun to your head, but they are absolutely telling you that you're missing out on a big chunk of the game.

Well it isn't much difference with the Horde and Alliance in War. Its just not that transparent since you can explore everything but you have to do the quests for the other side to trule understand what is going on. And again no one is forcing you if you don't want to. Will I be fine simply doing the Ebonheart Side? Sure. You ain't missing out on anything.

Being "forced" to level alts is fine if there's the secondary content to support it. If you're not going to read my earlier posts, then I'll not bother with the keystrokes. I'll simply state that I've discussed this, at great length earlier in the thread. Up to you to read.

Ofcourse there will be secondary content depending on how you define it. ZOS have mentioned that they are tailoring quests unique to each faction. So you will never feel like you are repeating anything if anyone plans on levelling alts with all 3 factions. But no you chose to have negative view from the start.

Really? People were excited, but it wasn't, "WOW SELLS 2139847129834 COPIES THEN DWINDLES IN PLAYERBASE!" It was the opposite. WoW sold very strongly, but grew because they delivered. People were hyped beforehand because you had one of the best developers in the industry (Warcraft, Diablo and Starcraft were all phenomenal series' with top notch gameplay that was at the top of their respective genre's) and had a proven track record of delivering good games, creating a MMO. Guess what? They delivered and the game subsequently exploded.

The only people that were hyped were people that played the earlier series. It was hardly main stream at that point. And if you are talking about main stream. Sure it probably was in Asia. Again like I said, they had no experience with an MMO before hand.

has zero titles under their belt, so I treat them as I treat all newcomers, with cautious optimism. I treated BioWare Austin the same way, and my opinion of them is extremely low now as I felt they've mishandled SWTOR on epic proportions.

Friendly reminder: Bethesda isn't making the game. ZeniMax Online is. They are working with Bethesda to make sure lore is correct ect. and probably getting tips, but Bethesda isn't actively involved in the development process as far as we know, so I wouldn't expect to see their "touch" on it.

Sure ZMO have zero titles. And sure Bethesda are not making the game. But they are physically and emotionally invested in the game. And you don't have to know everything like you probably don't know how bread you eat gets on your table.

Hi subjective opinions that aren't necessarily backed by any objective truth (beyond Skryim being on of the best reviewed games of the past decade, that I will concede). Warcraft was clearly popular enough to warrant a sequel, an expansion for the sequel, another sequel, and an expansion for that. If you're talking about WoW not being "mainstream" until WotLK, you're joking. That's when it was at its peak, but it had invaded pop culture in a way no other MMO had by the end of classic. By the end of BC it was pretty firmly embedded in pop culture in a way no other MMO, and few games, have been.

This is where you come of ignorant. Skyrim was probably the best reviewed. But to not say it deliver and was mesmerizing simply shows how bias you are towards Blizzard. Well the same can be said about the Elder Scroll series and considering they all won GOTY awards. What awards did any of the Warcraft games win? Some crappy awards in Asia?

Sure it had invaded pop culture but only to laugh at. It had such a negative light in the South Park episodes. Everyone that was playing WoW was takes as a basement dwelling, anxiety ridden, socially awkward person. It was hardly something that was positive.

Skyrim hardly has those stigmatic ms towards people that play the game or towards the game or any of the previous game. In fact a single phrase and a shout was the biggest thing on the internet in the last 2 years even WoW had to get in their MoP quest line in Pandaria.

That's because it is. How much of the staff at ZMO come from Bethesda and the Elder Scrolls team? Curious, because I actually don't know and would love some info. Last I heard, it was MMO devs from elsewhere who were brought together for the studio. Similar to how BioWare Austin wasn't actually much BioWare staff, but rather MMO developers from around the industry (Specifically many of them from Mythic) who were hired to staff the studio. They weren't "BioWare" in the same way the team that worked on Mass Effect was.

Just because ZeniMax owns Bethesda, doesn't mean everything ZeniMax creates is "Bethesda". They also own id, who are about as far from Bethesda as you can get. If they were to create "id Funtime Mobile" and hire a brand new team, that would hardly be considered "id" proper.

I have no doubt, as I mentioned earlier, that Bethesda is advising them on the game. However we have no confirmation, that I've seen, of how closely they are working together beyond an acknowledgement that they are assisting with the story to ensure consistency. That's great and all, but that will hardly determine gameplay elements for the game.

Like I said earlier, you and we don't need to know everything that goes on behind the scenes.

Really? How limited were they? I'm curious, because I haven't seen the licensing agreement and don't know if there even were any limitations beyond, "Don't do stupid shit". They seem to have quite a bit of liberty in how they handled the product, as long as they kept established facts consistent. ESO has similar restrictions. We know a ton about the Elder Scrolls universe, even if the game takes place thousands of years before/after existing games (similar to how SWTOR takes place during a unique time period in Star Wars), which means that they are limited in many similar ways.

They can't really just create a brand new race without having a ton of justification for it, because it would be assumed that later games would have mentioned this race had they existed. Just because they own the IP, doesn't mean they can do whatever they want with it. They're still constrained by the same limits that all established IP's are constrained by when it comes to what they can do within the universe.

Well the thing with Bio Ware with their limited rights, was that they had no rights over the SWTOR current movie time line. They had to stick within certain boundaries.

Now Skyrim takes place only a millenium before Skyrim, not like SWTOR which was like 3500 years before the movies. Now how you know a "ton" about the TES universe baffles me. The writers and lore experts themselves have said the lore around this time is very vague. So they are working on defining it in the MMO.

Introducing a new race as an argument for constraints again speaks ignorance. Well every work of art has to work with in its boundaries and world. However, they have complete freedom to do anything else they wish. And they even went ahead and said that they would tie in new lore with the existing lore. After all these are writers. But guess WoW is an exemption since people willingly eat what they are given with no back bone to question Blizzard's lore.

Cool story bro, enjoy limiting the appeal of the game and dramatically reducing the potential audience for the game. Surely subscription based games are better than F2P games. All 3 of them that are left (WoW, Rift, EVE), yup, those are the only good games. All F2P games are bad and it's a bad model and blah blah blah.

I'll be giving my money to other developers then. I'm sure they'll be happy to take it : )

Well if you are going to judge a game based on its payment model, you hardly deserve a voice to review a game. I didn't say all F2P games are bad. They just attract the wrong crowd, time and time again and its a well known proven fact. And I am pretty sure ZMO isn't hoping on "you" giving them your money. Sure they could write off what ever with a few million others.

Forgot this gem. What exactly does the welfare gear in WoW have to do with the quality of another game? It's up to other games to find ways to attract players. If welfare gear works, then they should take advantage of it if they want to pull players from WoW.

Blizzard isn't cheating, they're using smart design (evil genius) and their established status. That's smart business. If another MMO can't compete, tough cookies. Other MMO's haven't been able to compete on WoW's level so far, and that's fine. I still play many of them (TSW, Tera, Vindictus, GW2, EQ2, Champions Online, DCUO, Rift ect.) and find enjoyment in it.

It's up to "New MMO name here" to find something that WoW isn't delivering, or isn't delivering well enough, and to fill that role. Rift has filled it by delivering lighting quick content and features so far, affecting the rate at which WoW appears to be releasing content now (which is better for everyone). EVE carved out a niche for itself in the space-sandbox area. Other MMO's have found their own spot.

You can't cry, "Woe is me, the established market leader is too tough!" and expect any sympathy. This isn't day care. Nobody cared when Microsoft entered the MP3 player market years late with the Zune and ended up closing it down (which makes me sad as I love my Zune). They looked and Microsoft and said, "Tough shit, you made bad decisions."

No one is crying regarding Blizzard cheating. All I said was gamers this generation have a shorter attention span and decide on a game the first few minutes on logging into compared to previous generations.

And if you are saying that TES isn't introducing some cool ideas, then again you come across ignorant. No one is expecting any sympathy. Its just simple ignorance on the person's part when they compare a game to WoW.

---------- Post added 2013-02-05 at 06:19 PM ----------

If you've been at the launch of any other MMO, the starting zones are equally as terrible. The only difference is that rather than Asian jokes, it's WoW bashing or some other random topic.

Rift, SWTOR, TSW (to a lesser extent), and Tera at its subscription launch were all identical in terms of how painful the starting zones were.

Well you always have accountability and people are held responsible for that. Its hard to do it in a game that is F2P. Cause it doesn't stop them for creating new accounts and returning.

---------- Post added 2013-02-05 at 06:22 PM ----------

And also to be noted, just because its popular doesn't mean its any good quality wise. Its like comparing McDonalds burger to something from a high end steak house.

[ddsad2212]

Just wondering is it possible for the mods to stop this shit? Its been going on long enough and there are pages of no real discussion just flaming between these two. We get it you have opposing views on games design. I have opposing views on games with my room mates as well, but we can live together without killing each other so I don't see why ye two can't just ignore the other.

Anyway on topic, shame when games build up this much hype but don't really give any info on it. I mean two weeks since the trailer it would be nice to have started to near some real info on the game since then, apart from stuff we already kind of knew. O well there has been a bit , I suppose I would just have liked more:P

[wynterlyn]

Just wondering is it possible for the mods to stop this shit? Its been going on long enough and there are pages of no real discussion just flaming between these two. We get it you have opposing views on games design. I have opposing views on games with my room mates as well, but we can live together without killing each other so I don't see why ye two can't just ignore the other.

Anyway on topic, shame when games build up this much hype but don't really give any info on it. I mean two weeks since the trailer it would be nice to have started to near some real info on the game since then, apart from stuff we already kind of knew. O well there has been a bit , I suppose I would just have liked more:P

Well I just like opinions to be based more on facts rather than something based on assumptions. And I ain't afraid to stand up to people that think they are all and mighty.

And like I said, the problem with gamers this generation is about "now or never". NO patience whatsoever. I am pretty sure ZMO have a timeline and a launch plan and they will release more information when they feel the time is right. In fact I actually like games that give out limited information only cause it prevents the trolls and other games "fan boys" from bringing down their game based on their "opinions".

There was a time in gaming when you knew little about a game before its launch and actually had to buy it to really experience anything. Now it seems people make their decision on buying a game based on what has been said and written.

It adds to the mystery. I'll never forget the Dark Knight movie. I thought they did a really good job in their advertisement. I didn't expect two face to even play a role in the movie. But I was totally taken away from the turn of events.

[notorious98]

Please tell me if Blizzard had any MMO experience before WoW? I think most can definitely agree that Blizzard were really lucky with their MMO. Sometimes a game especially a small niche as an MMO's success depends on the time it was released. There were literally no MMOs around besides a couple and even then F2P was non existent.

Compared to these days where the players have a dozen different MMOs to choose from and also considering that players attention span is so limited, they basically decide on a game in the first 5-10 mins of logging into the game and probably even less. So companies have a harder time trying to attract and retain players. People fail to understand that WoW got to build all this over 8 years and had literally nothing much at launch. In fact a lot of other recent MMOs have had better and more successful launches but they simply lack the staying power that WoW has simply cause its basically hard to compete with something that has been around for donkey years.

And don't give me some bull shit about Zeni Max having no experience. It isn't like a "new" company. Sure it is technically but Zeni Max is the parent company of Bethesda and ZMO is one of their subsidiaries. So its not like a whole new company. And Bio Ware probably screwed themselves up with SWTOR when they partnered them selves with EA and I am guessing its cause for investment reasons. While with TES, the IP stays within the company itself and isn't been sold out to another organisation to develop. And they have mentioned that both Bethesda and ZMO are working closely together.

Didn't bother reading the whole thing because the first sentence is all I needed to see to know you don't know what you're talking about. I never said that Blizzard had any MMO experience beforehand. I also don't believe anybody was calling WoW an "EQ killer" beforehand. In fact, I don't believe that the conversation really ever came up. The point is that you can't say that ESO will definitively dent WoW's numbers because there is no evidence to support that theory. It's just a hair brained idea that creates ridiculous hype and will get shoved in your face if it fails to succeed in that. So until you can come with some factual evidence to support your theory, it just sounds stupid.

---------- Post added 2013-02-05 at 01:38 PM ----------

Well I just like opinions to be based more on facts rather than something based on assumptions.

Irony at its best.

[wynterlyn]

Didn't bother reading the whole thing because the first sentence is all I needed to see to know you don't know what you're talking about. I never said that Blizzard had any MMO experience beforehand. I also don't believe anybody was calling WoW an "EQ killer" beforehand. In fact, I don't believe that the conversation really ever came up. The point is that you can't say that ESO will definitively dent WoW's numbers because there is no evidence to support that theory. It's just a hair brained idea that creates ridiculous hype and will get shoved in your face if it fails to succeed in that. So until you can come with some factual evidence to support your theory, it just sounds stupid.[COLOR="red"]

Ignorance at its best.

[SirRobin]

Anyway on topic, shame when games build up this much hype but don't really give any info on it. I mean two weeks since the trailer it would be nice to have started to near some real info on the game since then, apart from stuff we already kind of knew. O well there has been a bit , I suppose I would just have liked more:P

Part of my problem with ESO is probably that I've developed almost a kind of allergy to hype. The more hyped it gets, the less forgiving I tend to get. You know that old saying of "once burned, twice shy?" Well how shy are you going to get when you're up to three, four, or more?

I would love for ESO to be my new MMORPG. I've been without one for months now and the only other one anywhere on my radar is WildStar. Yet I'm just not big on "benefit of the doubt" anymore.

[wynterlyn]

Part of my problem with ESO is probably that I've developed almost a kind of allergy to hype. The more hyped it gets, the less forgiving I tend to get. You know that old saying of "once burned, twice shy?" Well how shy are you going to get when you're up to three, four, or more?

I would love for ESO to be my new MMORPG. I've been without one for months now and the only other one anywhere on my radar is WildStar. Yet I'm just not big on "benefit of the doubt" anymore.

Well its a bit different for me. Cause I've never actively kept track and followed any recent game besides Skyrim.

I don't think its hyped up it. In fact its simply sailing under the radar. People have not even bothered to give it a second look yet. And that is why I feel the ZMO devs are doing a fantastic job currently. They ain't giving too much information out too quickly.

[ddsad2212]

Part of my problem with ESO is probably that I've developed almost a kind of allergy to hype. The more hyped it gets, the less forgiving I tend to get. You know that old saying of "once burned, twice shy?" Well how shy are you going to get when you're up to three, four, or more?

I would love for ESO to be my new MMORPG. I've been without one for months now and the only other one anywhere on my radar is WildStar. Yet I'm just not big on "benefit of the doubt" anymore.

I know where your coming from, but personally I know exactly what to expect from an EOS mmo. And honestly while excited about the potential of this game, I know it is only potential atm if I see gameplay footage and it looks terrible, ill be disappointed but I wont be blinded sided by it, as I know that is still very possible

[notorious98]

Ignorance at its best.

You can call it what you want, but it doesn't change the fact that you're wrong and a hypocrite. Have a nice day.

---------- Post added 2013-02-05 at 02:01 PM ----------

Anyway on topic, shame when games build up this much hype but don't really give any info on it. I mean two weeks since the trailer it would be nice to have started to near some real info on the game since then, apart from stuff we already kind of knew. O well there has been a bit , I suppose I would just have liked more:P

I think the hype train is more along the lines of fans boasting way too much about something they've barely seen and never played. Throwing around terms like "WoW killer" or saying it will have an impact on WoW's subs or anything of the like is what usually tends to blow a game's hype out of proportion. So far, I haven't really seen Zenimax steamrolling us with the hype train. That could change, but as of now, I haven't seen too much hype from the company.

[wynterlyn]

You can call it what you want, but it doesn't change the fact that you're wrong and a hypocrite. Have a nice day.

Well you could do the same. What makes your opinions more valuable that anyone else's ? Feeling of entitlement? Calling me a hypocrite?

Those words should be thrown at the mods in this thread. i.e edge.

[OrcsRLame]

This may not fit your image of a god but it certainly has fit worshipped gods in human history. For example, in Shinto the most prominent three gods are formed from the washing of Izanagi's (one of the first two beings in existence). Izanagi and Izanami are hardly given any myths and aren't worship unliked the things created by them.

Strangely, they aren't called gods while the things they created are and are given more reverence. There are more stories like this but that's just one off the top of my head. It's quite common actually that there are these first beings that create the Gods then suddenly disappear out of the mythology. I imagine the lore department was following that motif.

Also, in most of those polytheist religions the gods aren't all good. Many are prideful, uncaring and demand worship despite not always giving back. Norse, Greek, Shinto etc. all have gods that are like this. It also usually follows that if you stop worshiping them, they'll take vengeance. Even if they don't, being on their good side keeps the worse gods away. And yea, there can be evil gods in such a mythology, they don't need to be renounced as demons or anything.

Guess that's all sementics, but I thought I should mention it.

EDIT:
Also, my impression was that the Aedra were too weaken to interact that much with the mortals. I thought it was the elves who painted Lor'khan as a trickster because the believe they are descendants of some weaken Aedra and lost their divinity due to his plan. That was something I read on the wiki a while back though, and from reading some books.
I definitely got the impression that giving blessing was about all they had the energy to do. They're bound to the mortal plane but they're weakened so they just focus their energy on various sphere's of influence.

Their ability to give blessings for certain areas though seem like enough for them to be considered gods though. Mythologies like these usually focus on the highest beings that will confer blessings rather than the beings who came first but have little to do with them now. Because the Aedra are bound, they are seemingly forced to help out. The Daedra aren't bound, so the mortals can't trust them much (not to mention some of the princes who are just evil).
The Aedra end up being perfect candidates for worship as gods. It doesn't really matter that they didn't want to job or that they weren't the first beings. Worship in the pre-Christian Era was usually more practical than that, being who you can look to get blessings for love, trade, good crops, etc.

Then certain sects get carried away over their interpretations and wage war, with both sides fighting in the name of the same gods. That's awesomely realistic on the lore department's part. Of course, that's cause I think the Divines can't really intervene even if they cared. Why should they anyway? All they're doing is giving out blessings and working on their spheres of power, and the mortals decide to take up all these ideals or interpretations and get in a fight. Not their business.

The Divines definitely have the power to intervene. In fact, I'd say that even after losing some of their power, they're still stronger than the Daedric Princes. The Divines are capable of taking physical form, and they appear to the Neravarine multiple times in Morrowind. Akatosh still has the ability to manipulate time and reality as he pleases, for example the endings of Daggerfall. It'd take the Divines like 5 seconds to make peace between the Empire and the Thalmor.

[wynterlyn]

I think the hype train is more along the lines of fans boasting way too much about something they've barely seen and never played. Throwing around terms like "WoW killer" or saying it will have an impact on WoW's subs or anything of the like is what usually tends to blow a game's hype out of proportion. So far, I haven't really seen Zenimax steamrolling us with the hype train. That could change, but as of now, I haven't seen too much hype from the company.

And if you think it wouldn't have some kind of impact on WoW you are probably delusional. No one yet is calling it a "WoW killer". Do you know how many people were online on my realm the day Skyrim was released and the month following its release? I play on "High population" realm, The realm was practically dead for a good few weeks. Half my guild was on Skyrim and even when they were on WoW, they were talking about Skyrim. I had warriors and melee classes yelling "FUS RO DAH" in all my BGs. I had people yelling "FUS RO DAH" in the cities. Talk about impact.

And don't talk like Blizzard fan boys act oblivious to all the changes in WoW regardless if they are negative or not. Sure there is a reason they are called fans.

[llDemonll]

Seriously, cut the shit. You were asked once. All you're doing now is belittling people who have different viewpoints than you. Go back to discussing the game, not what you think of other people. If you can't do that, kindly remove yourself from the thread.

[wynterlyn]

Seriously, cut the shit. You were asked once. All you're doing now is belittling people who have different viewpoints than you. Go back to discussing the game, not what you think of other people. If you can't do that, kindly remove yourself from the thread.

Where have I belittled anyone? Having a different opinion is now considered belittling? I know this is a WoW fan site but still at least don't bring down other games. I am only pointing out something that they have conveniently overlooked.

You had a mod that deviated from the thread earlier and is partial towards WoW and whose discussions are all based on assumptions calling those assumptions discussions but when you bring up valid points is considered deviating from the thread?

[llDemonll]

It's not directed only at you, don't take it that way. I posted 15 minutes before your reply and you ignored it so I'm reminding you.

If you want to have a civil discussion with no name-calling, then do so, but the last few pages from you, edge, and 2 posts from notorious have not been a discussion. Everyone else has been doing fine discussing PvP, questing, lore, but you guys insist on repeatedly arguing with each other. I'm sure everyone else in the thread would appreciate it as well if you'd take your personal problems with each other to PM

[Pachycrocuta]

It's not directed only at you, don't take it that way. I posted 15 minutes before your reply and you ignored it so I'm reminding you.

If you want to have a civil discussion with no name-calling, then do so, but the last few pages from you, edge, and 2 posts from notorious have not been a discussion. Everyone else has been doing fine discussing PvP, questing, lore, but you guys insist on repeatedly arguing with each other. I'm sure everyone else in the thread would appreciate it as well if you'd take your personal problems with each other to PM

-snip- Enough is enough. -Sj

As for the rest of the topic: No one has called this a wow-killer, and I haven't seen any actual hype except for about a day after the beta signups, people were getting hyped about it. Other than that, I have seen mostly people complaining about certain aspects. I have seen anything but hype for most of this thread.

[Lyriok]

-snip- Enough is enough. -Sj

As for the rest of the topic: No one has called this a wow-killer, and I haven't seen any actual hype except for about a day after the beta signups, people were getting hyped about it. Other than that, I have seen mostly people complaining about certain aspects. I have seen anything but hype for most of this thread.

I have to back this up.

"Wow killer" has been brought up but only when discussing other MMOs which occassionally pops up briefly. To call EOS a "wow killer" is rather naive as we have pretty much no information on the game besides a few details it's too early to even consider it being a "wow killer"

The main discussion so far has been lore/setting/races/what combat will be like/questing/sign-ups/trailer/other MMOs and the faction zone restriction.