[Megathread] Elder Scrolls Online

[Drakhar]

I don't believe that 'naively positive' is the BEST form of debate participants, but certainly not the worst either. If you set a scale of five ranking as such;

*Naively Positive
*Generally positive
*Indiffrent
*Generally negative
*Entirely negative

- I'd rather take the top three over the bottom three when it comes to a debate regarding a subject. While it's important to be realistic, which the entirely naive positives won't do too well or perhaps lack entirely, it's more important to show enthusiasm regarding the release you're anticipating over simply dismissing everything as "That is gonna suck!".

I'm derailing a bit, but I have to disagree. The worst are always the extremes, the ones who are naive and/or completely unrealistic. At least with the overly negative people (aka trolls) you can just ignore them, and they tend to disappear. On the other end of the spectrum you have the fanatics that, unlike the trolls, legitimately believe what they post. More often than not, these people set unreasonably high expectations for themselves and are subsequently disappointed by the game they eventually get. This results in two possibilities: 1) resort to troll mode, gushing about the spectacular failure that said game was and how the MMO apocalypse is now imminent, or 2) continue to blindly defend in an attempt to both save face and convince oneself that the game actually was as great as they expected. All of these posters are nearly always a detriment to conversation, because they don't present factual or useful discussion points, and instantly reject all opinions that don't coincide with their own.

Case and point: forums for every MMORPG released ever.

[Deleted]

I'm derailing a bit, but I have to disagree. The worst are always the extremes, the ones who are naive and/or completely unrealistic. At least with the overly negative people (aka trolls) you can just ignore them, and they tend to disappear. On the other end of the spectrum you have the fanatics that, unlike the trolls, legitimately believe what they post. More often than not, these people set unreasonably high expectations for themselves and are subsequently disappointed by the game they eventually get. This results in two possibilities: 1) resort to troll mode, gushing about the spectacular failure that said game was and how the MMO apocalypse is now imminent, or 2) continue to blindly defend in an attempt to both save face and convince oneself that the game actually was as great as they expected. All of these posters are nearly always a detriment to conversation, because they don't present factual or useful discussion points, and instantly reject all opinions that don't coincide with their own.

Case and point: forums for every MMORPG released ever.

Well yes, but the matter was not weither or not the naively positive would be let down by the end results, but weither or not they can actively participate in a debate. It's also what I stated as my final remark and I'd prefer your take on that rather than the fictional curve I provided for relevance.

But if you insist on taking the abovementioned point then sure. That's likely to happen, but if they feel that way, how is it our concern as posters? I would argue it's equally easy to ignore or disregard "This is gonna be awesome!" as "This is gonna suck!" - ofcourse using broad strokes. Often both sides are painted with shades of grey, but I find the first to be more reasonable to debate with than the latter.

As example, I would rather explain why I am looking forward to something aswell, but keeping a realistic point of view, than I would try to talk someone out of their point of view that something is gonna suck and nothing is going to change that. Perhaps we have diffrent experiences on that matter, which I fully respect, but I still stand by my point that naively positive players are easier to display flaws to through examples, quotes or interviews - no matter how rigerously they wish to defend it - than it is to convince someone with predetermination that something won't work, will actualy work.

What seems to strike me from your quoted post is that you have more gripe with the forums than the posters (bolded part since you made it your case and point) to which I have to ask; If you expect there to be naively positive posters but rigerously consider them inelligible for debate, why're you even here? I expect there to be both aswell when going into the debate, but I don't really mind neither of them. I actualy like the challenge of explaining my views, opinions and previously read articles to the naively positives - and it seems to have sparked some interresting conversation so far previously in this thread aswell as supply information to others - while there's absolutely nothing constructive in bashing others, trolling or generally carrying hatred into a thread to debate a new release.

Addition:

I'll meet you halfway on one point. That is that if there was ONLY naively positive posters, this thread would be boring. There has to be a balance for debate. Same applies for all of my previously mentioned examples except for the bottom two (Although, I'll argue that the second last DOES still contribute somewhat valuably but often with too highly biased predetermined opinion to provide any real debate more than just a shout-fight) is required to spark debate in the first place. If we all agreed on everything, there'd be no case for real debate except for constant agreement and that's hardly healthy for the subject OF debate. Don't you agree?

[derpkitteh]

Hope not. If you wanna play the coward style by being a stealthy archer one shotting people who are just not interested in your presence there's other games which allow you to do that. But if you're really up for this, there's always this PvP zone which, I expect, to be rich in content as well kinda like GW2 WvWvW or EvE low sec. The problem with WG and TB in WoW is that there's (virtually) no reason for players to be there, and the areas are also small. If you create a large, rich zone instead its actually quite a lot like world PvP and allows exactly what you describe except you're not able to join the PvE zones. Basically, it sticks PvP players with PvP players, PvE players with PvE players, and allows people to switch between the two (which WoW doesn't allow in terms of world PvP due to PvE and PvP realm lock).

you see... this is the elder scrolls though. assassinations, murder, theft... all these things are to be expected. you shouldn't be safe just because you're in friendly land. all three factions are at each other's throat, and the thought of a dominion assassination squad attacking daggerfall covenant towns and soldiers is just perfect. it's what should be going on.

[Pachycrocuta]

you see... this is the elder scrolls though. assassinations, murder, theft... all these things are to be expected. you shouldn't be safe just because you're in friendly land. all three factions are at each other's throat, and the thought of a dominion assassination squad attacking daggerfall covenant towns and soldiers is just perfect. it's what should be going on.

I don't get the vibe of "the factions are at each other's throat". Feels more like "I want that imperial land and those other guys are in my way". It seems more that the prize is Cyrodiil, not the rest of Tamriel.

[Deleted]

you see... this is the elder scrolls though. assassinations, murder, theft... all these things are to be expected. you shouldn't be safe just because you're in friendly land. all three factions are at each other's throat, and the thought of a dominion assassination squad attacking daggerfall covenant towns and soldiers is just perfect. it's what should be going on.

I believe we covered this, as late as between page 98 and 108. Several times before aswell but that's the most recent stuff about it. It's indeed Elder Scrolls but we have to establish some middle ground between the SPRPG and an MMO to set certain rules for the sake of more common appeal and regulation. Regarding invasion into eachothers territories, I tried to cover that as best as I could on page 108 but using Ebonheart Pact and Daggerfall Covenant as example, mainly related to a "Why are the Ebonheart Pact's main engagement point not from Skyrim?" but the manner of tactical advantage still applies to "Why not invade from X front".

Besides, I applaud the idea that you're NOT the chosen one by standard. I'm sick of being the chosen one, if I wanted to be the chosen one I'd have played a SPRPG or WoW or SW:TOR. I applaud the idea that you can't just take your business or friends across a border and wreak havoc for the lols of it. But I also did propose a mid-way system around the early 90's suggesting that what if they removed the invisible walls BUT made the content entered outside of your own factions phased in the sense that only yourself and your allies from the same faction CAN enter it, wreak havoc without any serious consequences to the more PvE aspiring crowd who prefers realism over superheroism. Would that fit better for you, or is it just a determining factor that other players of the faction you're attacking is present, to which I would ask; Why not just enjoy Cyrodil then?

---------- Post added 2013-01-30 at 08:31 PM ----------

I don't get the vibe of "the factions are at each other's throat". Feels more like "I want that imperial land and those other guys are in my way". It seems more that the prize is Cyrodiil, not the rest of Tamriel.

And this. To MY understanding it's not so much "We should wipe out the other two factions" as it is "We should secure the throne so we can DOMINATE the other factions and force them under our might". But as I wrote in bold, it's MY understanding and I could be horribly mistaken.

[Deleted]

you see... this is the elder scrolls though. assassinations, murder, theft... all these things are to be expected. you shouldn't be safe just because you're in friendly land. all three factions are at each other's throat, and the thought of a dominion assassination squad attacking daggerfall covenant towns and soldiers is just perfect. it's what should be going on.

Next time I get robbed IRL I'll be sure to remember "Its a rough world, deal with"

Your playstyle is very much allowed and welcome in a designated zone. Hopefully it is big and meaningful.

[Drakhar]

Well yes, but the matter was not weither or not the naively positive would be let down by the end results, but weither or not they can actively participate in a debate.

Really my point just comes down to: ability to participate in a debate =/= providing a beneficial contribution to a debate.

The rest of your post isn't really relevant, and of course I would agree that multiple viewpoints and opinions are needed in any discussion... or else it will just be a figurative circle jerk of like-minds instead of a debate. The folks that will undoubtedly be let down in the future are just another example of commentary that will be detrimental to good discussion.

Funny enough, if ohaithar were to comment now on irony, it would be an apt and clever statement, as I am contributing absolutely nothing to the discussion of ESO by going on this tangent.

[Deleted]

Yep, and those are the worst kind of folks to have any form of discussion with. Actually, they're pretty much incapable of having such a thing.

In response to your latest post above, I'll go back and quote this for point. Atleast we've reached a common ground in that they can actively participate in debate. But like the trolls they won't be subjective or add much real debate to a discussion. But that's not to say they cannot participate, and I COULD argue that I've had several good discussions with naively positive posters previously in this thread, but let's leave it at this for the sake of returning to the original topic. Thanks for the talk, it was a pleasure =)

[Flaks]

If you continously remove novelty and "fun" things in the name of optimization, you'll have a hollow shell of a game left to play. WoW's been getting there slowly because every change has been attempting to optimize how things are done just because "majority of players were doing them anyways".

---------- Post added 2013-01-30 at 09:01 PM ----------

I don't get the vibe of "the factions are at each other's throat". Feels more like "I want that imperial land and those other guys are in my way". It seems more that the prize is Cyrodiil, not the rest of Tamriel.

While this is the initial set up for the game, factions WILL take control of Cyrodiil and the other factions WILL be at each other's throats to obtain that grand prize. One way or another you have to rip that seat of power out from underneath other players and factions.

[Deleted]

In response to your latest post above, I'll go back and quote this for point. Atleast we've reached a common ground in that they can actively participate in debate.

Its part of culture on your forum, which has to be enforced by authority (being ignoring people who don't adapt, or getting them to adapt or be removed, as well as removing content which lacks quality). Take for example EJ. Each and every post must be meaningful and on-topic. Repeating isn't allowed (which takes out fanatics and such) and because of that you'll find less flamewar. This forum is less strict, and in our example here we got only 1 thread on the subject with various branches whereas not every branch is interesting to every reader.

[Deleted]

If you continously remove novelty and "fun" things in the name of optimization, you'll have a hollow shell of a game left to play. WoW's been getting there slowly because every change has been attempting to optimize how things are done just because "majority of players were doing them anyways".

---------- Post added 2013-01-30 at 09:01 PM ----------



While this is the initial set up for the game, factions WILL take control of Cyrodiil and the other factions WILL be at each other's throats to obtain that grand prize. One way or another you have to rip that seat of power out from underneath other players and factions.

... Yes. In Cyrodil where the seat of power IS! =) Correct me if I'm wrong but is'nt that what's planned? I mean, moving into eachothers land makes sense in a universe where the main army of X faction is destroyed, but considering a large part of the in-game armies will be composed of players that's not likely to happen, so the battles will continue in Cyrodil.

I mean, IF we see a point in time where X faction dominates the throne and holds all of Cyrodil for a reasonable amount of time, advancing past your supply lines against the enemies cities - simultaneously to not create imbalance which will break your rear - and actualy be able to win without exhausting your forces and resources then I agree, it makes no sense not to. But realisticly, that's not really likely to happen, is it?

If History has taught us anything about empires from thousands of years before christ to the 1990's - empires don't last. Eventually you exhaust yourself and worst case you lose more than you gained. Think logically from the Emperors point of view. Let's say you dominate Cyrodil. Do you:

A: Move further to decimate the people to take land you won't need or use for resources that won't benefit you while killing a people you could be dominating for your own glory and your peoples/alliance's benefit

Or...

B: Supress the other people, hold the imperial seat with a tight grip and enact your will upon the continent - opressions be damned?

Ofcourse I have to add this is ALL speculatory and I can't in any way do anything but make theories on how the continent of Tamriel will look and function, but if you ask me it just does'nt make sense to push neither of the other regions. You hold Cyrodil, you hold Tamriel. Untill you don't hold Cyrodil anymore, it makes no financial, tactical or strategic benefit to wipe out the others.

[rhandric]

While this is the initial set up for the game, factions WILL take control of Cyrodiil and the other factions WILL be at each other's throats to obtain that grand prize. One way or another you have to rip that seat of power out from underneath other players and factions.

Right, and that will happen...in Cyrodiil

[Okacz]

... Yes. In Cyrodil where the seat of power IS! =) Correct me if I'm wrong but is'nt that what's planned? I mean, moving into eachothers land makes sense in a universe where the main army of X faction is destroyed, but considering a large part of the in-game armies will be composed of players that's not likely to happen, so the battles will continue in Cyrodil.

I mean, IF we see a point in time where X faction dominates the throne and holds all of Cyrodil for a reasonable amount of time, advancing past your supply lines against the enemies cities - simultaneously to not create imbalance which will break your rear - and actualy be able to win without exhausting your forces and resources then I agree, it makes no sense not to. But realisticly, that's not really likely to happen, is it?

If History has taught us anything about empires from thousands of years before christ to the 1990's - empires don't last. Eventually you exhaust yourself and worst case you lose more than you gained. Think logically from the Emperors point of view. Let's say you dominate Cyrodil. Do you:

A: Move further to decimate the people to take land you won't need or use for resources that won't benefit you while killing a people you could be dominating for your own glory and your peoples/alliance's benefit

Or...

B: Supress the other people, hold the imperial seat with a tight grip and enact your will upon the continent - opressions be damned?

Ofcourse I have to add this is ALL speculatory and I can't in any way do anything but make theories on how the continent of Tamriel will look and function, but if you ask me it just does'nt make sense to push neither of the other regions. You hold Cyrodil, you hold Tamriel. Untill you don't hold Cyrodil anymore, it makes no financial, tactical or strategic benefit to wipe out the others.

The worst possible war strategy over there in my opinion.

"My fellow soldiers, citizens of Tamriel! It is I, the emperor xXxlegolasxXx, who claimed the throne of Cyrodil! Worry not, my breathen, as our position is secure and stable!"
"My lord, what about those two hostile factions of similiar strengh that fought us to get the Iron Throne as well? Don't you worry they will try again?"
"Absolutely not! Our position will last forever, and thus, there is no reason to even use our territorial advancement to shatter our enemies forever! Let us feast!"
<CRUSH>
"Was that a catapult?"
"Well, I guess we gonna retake this castle eventually"

[Deleted]

The worst possible war strategy over there in my opinion.

"My fellow soldiers, citizens of Tamriel! It is I, the emperor xXxlegolasxXx, who claimed the throne of Cyrodil! Worry not, my breathen, as our position is secure and stable!"
"My lord, what about those two hostile factions of similiar strengh that fought us to get the Iron Throne as well? Don't you worry they will try again?"
"Absolutely not! Our position will last forever, and thus, there is no reason to even use our territorial advancement to shatter our enemies forever! Let us feast!"
<CRUSH>
"Was that a catapult?"
"Well, I guess we gonna retake this castle eventually"

I'll turn the arguement against you and say; If you're strong enough to ATTACK the enemy head on, on two fronts, would'nt you be strong enough to defend them at a lucrative location on ONE where they'll most likely also be battling eachother a bit? =)

[Buckwald]

http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/01...s-between-the/

Great read.

[Deleted]

http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/01...s-between-the/

Great read.

Ah, excellent article. Finally something to back up my claims some pages ago about players not being the usual chosen ones that we've become so used to being. Thanks for linking Buckwald =)

Edit: Except for the guy who becomes emperor ofcourse. There's one concept I am strongly nerveous about. I really don't see it working if the emperor has some sort of special previledges besides just being "Yeah, babeh, I'm teh king lolz!". But hey, benefit of the doubt, maybe it'll be something amazing. I reserve my right to be sceptical about that, though =)

[OrcsRLame]

Ah, excellent article. Finally something to back up my claims some pages ago about players not being the usual chosen ones that we've become so used to being. Thanks for linking Buckwald =)

Edit: Except for the guy who becomes emperor ofcourse. There's one concept I am strongly nerveous about. I really don't see it working if the emperor has some sort of special previledges besides just being "Yeah, babeh, I'm teh king lolz!". But hey, benefit of the doubt, maybe it'll be something amazing. I reserve my right to be sceptical about that, though =)

I think you're jumping to conclusions by assuming that a player will be emperor. I think it's far more logical that the faction leaders will be emperor based on the pvp performance of the players. Like, if the Ebonheart Pact kicks ass, then Jorunn the Skald-King becomes emperor for a week. Or something like that.

[Deleted]

I think you're jumping to conclusions by assuming that a player will be emperor. I think it's far more logical that the faction leaders will be emperor based on the pvp performance of the players. Like, if the Ebonheart Pact kicks ass, then Jorunn the Skald-King becomes emperor for a week. Or something like that.

Oh, Laurcus.. This is basic gameguide on the very website of the game man =/

Source: http://elderscrollsonline.com/en/gam...e-alliance-war

Featuring three-sided Player vs. Player (PvP) gameplay, The Elder Scrolls Online supports hundreds of players on screen at once in an open world fight for control of Cyrodiil. Seize, hold, and control the resources of massive strongholds. Utilize massive siege weapons to crumble fortress walls and smash through fortified gates. Conquer the Imperial City, and your alliance’s top player could even be crowned Emperor!

[Pachycrocuta]

I think you're jumping to conclusions by assuming that a player will be emperor. I think it's far more logical that the faction leaders will be emperor based on the pvp performance of the players. Like, if the Ebonheart Pact kicks ass, then Jorunn the Skald-King becomes emperor for a week. Or something like that.

From what's been said, a player is crowned Emperor. How a player gets crowned, what that entails, and such, I have no idea.

[Deleted]

From what's been said, a player is crowned Emperor. How a player gets crowned, what that entails, and such, I have no idea.

Yeah, that part is still speculation thus far. Nothing fully confirmed but I believe I heard an interview with Frior some time ago stating it's based on PvP performance.

Edit: However your statement is correct, how it's gonna work etcetera is yet to be revealed.