[Megathread] Elder Scrolls Online

[gainesvilleg]

1) we've been told that the RPG map scale will translate directly to the MMO. that means at launch, TESO will be 1.5-2x larger than wow is, and depending on the 2 largest zones in TES and how much of them are playable, it could end up being 3-4x. it will be one of the top 3 largest game maps ever and probably the largest ever. this world is going to be HUGE. people don't realize how big each zone is. skyrim is about the same size as northrend. it will be a seamless zone with only instanced areas requiring loading screens. it will be a LOT to load when you zone in. it is 1/3 of a faction's area though and there are larger zones. loading screens are not only 100% necessary because of the size of these zones, they're beneficial to everyone. your computer isn't gonna run TESO on ultra like it runs wow on ULTRA. wow is for low end computers, it's how they keep those subs up. people who can't play rift, swtor, etc don't have a better option than wow until they spend real money on computer upgrades. blizzard chose subs over better graphics in 2002

2) classic TES combat style CAN NOT WORK IN AN MMO. it has to be modified to keep melee from being 100% more effective than every ranged class. until it's as easy to hit a large target with no delay (melee) as it is a smaller target with 1-3 second delay (ranged) target locking will be mandatory. the ONLY other alternative that has been attempted is increasing the power of projectiles to make up for the lower hit chance, and that means ranged are still behind the curve and when you get 1 shot, it's not fun or skill based. you can't avoid some type of target locking system if you want balance.

3) 1st person view isn't viable at a high level in an MMO in pvp or pve. it forces you into something that is universally bad, tunnel vision. until peripheral vision and 360 degree sound is standard, 3rd person will be all that is viable. you can't simulate those things without matching it to your actual FOV and wrap around monitors just aren't happening right now

4) i'm sick of seeing "the beta trailer is generic". if you know anything about TES, you saw a lot of things that were VERY specific to the lore. the way the chain lightning looked. the dwemer ranger armor on the breton. the races themselves, the war paint, the magelight spell, the architecture in the distance should be instantly recognizable. while you don't have to like it, you can't be ignorant about TES and say that nothing reminds of you TES. the problem is that you don't know anything about TES if it doesn't remind you of the franchise

i've not seen ONE PERSON who knew what they were talking about put down what we know about the game so far. they are making an actual effort to keep as much of the feel of TES while making it a viable MMO. a lot simply will not EVER work in an MMO and it has to be dropped and replaced with what will. a static world with 1 person in it can't be like an MMO world. no tech will ever change that. swtor's instancing was too heavy, vanilla wow's was too little. a mix between the two will make it feel like an MMORPG and not one or the other.

i hope it's not like wow. i don't want to play wow. i hope it's not as convenient and if it doesn't appeal to 10 million people, it means they did a LOT of things right. i hope it's more rift than wow because rift has a bright future with the 1-1.5 million subs. when an MMO appeals to the masses, it stops being anything more than the next maplestory. the masses aren't gamers and don't like challenge. dear god i hope it doesn't appeal to them

First, I don't know much about the MMO version but I do like Elder Scrolls have played every one since Arena. But I do want to dispute a couple of your points:

2) "TES combat style" by which you must mean FPP non-locking? If so, your claim that it won't work because FPP non-locking is more melee effective is clearly incorrect as a blanket statement. Halo and CoD and every FPS out there for that matter show you that it is easy to say ranged is more effective, only a noob runs around in pure melee (or for the achievements). And not all range is one-shot kill Halo you can escape from ranged. And you say "but that isn't MMO" but so what? It is competetive PVP and shows ranged can easily be effective without 3rd person tab-target. And if you want MMO how about Planetside 2 have fun meleeing there LOL. It is all about how they balance it, there is nothing fundamental about tab-target 3rd person in an MMO other than most do it that way.

3) First, if you force everybody to 1st person the tunnel vision is even playing field at least. Sure 3rd person is easier when you can see behind you but you can force people to play in 1st person to make it viable. Or you can add disadvantages to 3rd person like less accurate targeting reticule or something to balance it out. Or, you may not realize how soon peripheral vision will be coming check this youtube video it is pretty neat technology that solves the peripheral vision issue. I'm excited about it actually I hope next xbox has this it will revolutionize FPS games:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=re1EatGRV0w

4) Not many people care too much about the lore. It is ok, and you need lore of some sort, but the real innovation Elder Scrolls games have is an immersive world in general, not the specific immersive world lore but the features that simply let you move in and experience the game the way you want. Very few people read the books in the game although I occassionally do. If Elders Scrolls online gets rid of that immersion then it will fail plain and simple.

[derpkitteh]

any idea yet on how many characters we'll be able to make? i've already planned 2 or 3 alts =x

also... this might be the first game where i will be happy to replay the main story. cause i get to the beat the shit out of that sick fuck molag >.>

[Splatter]

-You can still fight in first person view. They are keeping that in there. Whether or not it will be a detriment (at least in pvp) is yet to be seen.
-It will be about as immersive as Skyrim is with its limited size and massive amounts of loading screens.
- From videos I have seen, and overall talk about the game, they are apparently going to allow you to interact with all the items you could in Skyrim (crap on tables, shelves, floors), and possibly be able to take them. Just no pickpocketing, and quite possibly no crime system. Because honestly, a crime system would not work at all in an MMORPG if you are referring to what they have in Skyrim. It is impossible to do. Why, you might ask? Because in the single player games, you can advance time as you see fit, and the crime system takes this into account (not being able to pay your fine lands you in jail and a number of days pass in the blink of an eye). You cannot skip forward in time in an MMORPG due to it being a persistant world with hundreds upon thousands of people existing in the world at the same time as you.

There are other ways to do a crime system. A bit like the dishonorable kill system in wow. If you were involved in too much crime etc then faction guards would turn hostile and try to kill you until you either paid your bounty or did some other good deed to reverse your poor reputation

[Zeek Daniels]

2) "TES combat style" by which you must mean FPP non-locking? If so, your claim that it won't work because FPP non-locking is more melee effective is clearly incorrect as a blanket statement. Halo and CoD and every FPS out there for that matter show you that it is easy to say ranged is more effective, only a noob runs around in pure melee (or for the achievements). And not all range is one-shot kill Halo you can escape from ranged. And you say "but that isn't MMO" but so what? It is competetive PVP and shows ranged can easily be effective without 3rd person tab-target. And if you want MMO how about Planetside 2 have fun meleeing there LOL. It is all about how they balance it, there is nothing fundamental about tab-target 3rd person in an MMO other than most do it that way.

Comparing an FPS with Bullet speed to any elderscrolls game with Arrow speed is rediculous. First off all this isnt WoW with Auto Attacks, or GW2 where your 1 skill auto fires when you press it if you have a target. If you play Skyrim and rapidly press the first mouse button while holding a bow your going to shoot straight into the ground. Well that serves you well. Seeing as they have said pressing the button is a weak attack and holding is a stronger attack we can assume that pressing the button with a bow in hand will fire an arrow. Now the question is, is your fired arrow going to hit your target, and how fast can you fire arrows. If its slow firing then forget the stupid FPS comparisons, It would be like firing a weak ass rocket at someone from a distance and them sidestepping it, and guess what no splash damage so u cant aim at their feet. If it has a faster reload something like the GW2 Shortbow that would be awesome but i have a feeling it will be more like the Longbow in GW2 thats more slow firing. This game needs a targeting system for ranged. I think they are doing the right thing or it would be too hard for ranged to compete in PvP. This isnt WoW where hunters have 5 or 6 ranged attacks. We dont know what the other abilities are or if there will even be any bow related abilities, So off of straight bow damage i think ranged with a bow is at a disadvantage when fighting a melee character without a targeting system.

[fizzbob]

First, I don't know much about the MMO version but I do like Elder Scrolls have played every one since Arena. But I do want to dispute a couple of your points:

2) "TES combat style" by which you must mean FPP non-locking? If so, your claim that it won't work because FPP non-locking is more melee effective is clearly incorrect as a blanket statement. Halo and CoD and every FPS out there for that matter show you that it is easy to say ranged is more effective, only a noob runs around in pure melee (or for the achievements). And not all range is one-shot kill Halo you can escape from ranged. And you say "but that isn't MMO" but so what? It is competetive PVP and shows ranged can easily be effective without 3rd person tab-target. And if you want MMO how about Planetside 2 have fun meleeing there LOL. It is all about how they balance it, there is nothing fundamental about tab-target 3rd person in an MMO other than most do it that way.

3) First, if you force everybody to 1st person the tunnel vision is even playing field at least. Sure 3rd person is easier when you can see behind you but you can force people to play in 1st person to make it viable. Or you can add disadvantages to 3rd person like less accurate targeting reticule or something to balance it out. Or, you may not realize how soon peripheral vision will be coming check this youtube video it is pretty neat technology that solves the peripheral vision issue. I'm excited about it actually I hope next xbox has this it will revolutionize FPS games:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=re1EatGRV0w

4) Not many people care too much about the lore. It is ok, and you need lore of some sort, but the real innovation Elder Scrolls games have is an immersive world in general, not the specific immersive world lore but the features that simply let you move in and experience the game the way you want. Very few people read the books in the game although I occassionally do. If Elders Scrolls online gets rid of that immersion then it will fail plain and simple.

what are the melee-centric classes in halo and cod? hell, do you even know what FPS means? FIRST PERSON SHOOTER. that last word, shooter, should make a bunch of fucking bells go off in that head of yours. shoot. er. shooter

one who shoots

so in a GENRE that is ONLY ABOUT RANGED CLASSES you are telling me that ranged and melee (which do not exist in any FPS) exist? there are no melee classes in halo or cod. they're all ranged. that's why it works, there is no balance to be had, everything is ranged. when everyone is playing by the same rules, it's easy to balance. that's why FPS are more competitive, they don't have a bunch of different types of ranged to balance, much less ranged vs melee

so since i've took your weak attempt at a "point" and skullfucked it, on to the next thing

you're right that if you force, FORCE, everyone into a 1st person view, or any view, it could be sideways from the left nostril, it would be even. wow has an option for 1st out to a distant 3rd person bird's eye view.

you are at a disadvantage if you use 1st person. you lose around 70% of your field of vision. it's not viable to have an option for 1st or 3rd because 1st will never be better.

in a single player game, it doesn't matter, it's preference. in an MMO, it's 100% impossible to make 1st person as viable as 3rd until those wrap-around monitors are in every home.

you can't simulate peripheral vision in 1st person point of view without either extreme edge distortion or a special mode that utilizes multiple monitors and even then, you have blind spots where the monitor borders are

it's just not viable.

in MMOs you do not have the option of doing things your way, it's viable or it's stupid. that's why a lot of people hate them, and that's fine, that's a legitimate reason

but you will NEVER be playing an MMO at your full potential if you keyboard turn, click, use 1st person or play ranged without target locking. you'll get your ass handed to you in pve and pvp

the best thing about TES to me is the lore. i love it. it's so deep that it makes wow lore look like a mud puddle. the lore is so deep that most TES players literally don't know anything about it. it's the strength of the franchise along with the ability for us, the gamers, to modify the games.

balance of immersion and convenience is what blizz has been trying to do since bc and so far they've failed miserably. it feels like 1 point of convenience removes 5 points of immersion.

whatever they decide to do with that is their choice. i'd prefer NO convenience. i know that today's gamers are nancies and require convenience. EQ peaked at 500,000 subs because of lack of convenience.

convenience and low barrier for entry is why wow peaked at 12,000,000 subs.

you can't have high immersion, low convenience and rake in money hand over fist. rift has a nice balance i guess. gw2 never sold itself as anything but a convenient MMO though.

if they try to balance it, the game won't suffer, if they go one way or the other too hard it will suffer either by having a small fan base (most gamers don't wanna spend a lot of time gaming, it's not really their hobby, it's more about saying they play games than the game itself) or by being so convenient the game simply sucks

[gainesvilleg]

what are the melee-centric classes in halo and cod? hell, do you even know what FPS means? FIRST PERSON SHOOTER. that last word, shooter, should make a bunch of fucking bells go off in that head of yours. shoot. er. shooter

one who shoots

so in a GENRE that is ONLY ABOUT RANGED CLASSES you are telling me that ranged and melee (which do not exist in any FPS) exist? there are no melee classes in halo or cod. they're all ranged. that's why it works, there is no balance to be had, everything is ranged. when everyone is playing by the same rules, it's easy to balance. that's why FPS are more competitive, they don't have a bunch of different types of ranged to balance, much less ranged vs melee

so since i've took your weak attempt at a "point" and skullfucked it, on to the next thing

you're right that if you force, FORCE, everyone into a 1st person view, or any view, it could be sideways from the left nostril, it would be even. wow has an option for 1st out to a distant 3rd person bird's eye view.

you are at a disadvantage if you use 1st person. you lose around 70% of your field of vision. it's not viable to have an option for 1st or 3rd because 1st will never be better.

in a single player game, it doesn't matter, it's preference. in an MMO, it's 100% impossible to make 1st person as viable as 3rd until those wrap-around monitors are in every home.

you can't simulate peripheral vision in 1st person point of view without either extreme edge distortion or a special mode that utilizes multiple monitors and even then, you have blind spots where the monitor borders are

it's just not viable.

in MMOs you do not have the option of doing things your way, it's viable or it's stupid. that's why a lot of people hate them, and that's fine, that's a legitimate reason

but you will NEVER be playing an MMO at your full potential if you keyboard turn, click, use 1st person or play ranged without target locking. you'll get your ass handed to you in pve and pvp

the best thing about TES to me is the lore. i love it. it's so deep that it makes wow lore look like a mud puddle. the lore is so deep that most TES players literally don't know anything about it. it's the strength of the franchise along with the ability for us, the gamers, to modify the games.

balance of immersion and convenience is what blizz has been trying to do since bc and so far they've failed miserably. it feels like 1 point of convenience removes 5 points of immersion.

whatever they decide to do with that is their choice. i'd prefer NO convenience. i know that today's gamers are nancies and require convenience. EQ peaked at 500,000 subs because of lack of convenience.

convenience and low barrier for entry is why wow peaked at 12,000,000 subs.

you can't have high immersion, low convenience and rake in money hand over fist. rift has a nice balance i guess. gw2 never sold itself as anything but a convenient MMO though.

if they try to balance it, the game won't suffer, if they go one way or the other too hard it will suffer either by having a small fan base (most gamers don't wanna spend a lot of time gaming, it's not really their hobby, it's more about saying they play games than the game itself) or by being so convenient the game simply sucks

1) Ever heard of melee in Halo? Or combat knife in CoD? Melee is VERY imporant in Halo 3 for instance especially when using SMGs. 50% of close-up kills are finished off with a melee in Halo 3. In fact in MW2 many claimed melee was overpowered because of the lunge effect for knifing especially if you took the Commando perk. So, despite your claim to the contrary, melee is part of FPS games at least CoD and Halo. And just because your brain cannot comprehend anything other than the way other MMO's work, I'm telling you there is much evidence out there that other ways work too. Melee is only overpowered if you balance the game badly. To be honest range is overpowered in real life, FPSers, and unless poorly implemented they can be strong in MMO's too. Maybe you are scared of actually having to aim and are incapable, but most of the rest of us can handle it.

2) Again, saying "in an MMO it's 100% impossible" is just small minded "WoW did it that way" thinking. Think out of the box. And clearly you didn't watch the video I linked for technology ideas to peripheral vision. And there is a reason why FPS games are more popular than say Gears of War it is because the immersion of first person is preferred over the extra field of view of 3rd person. If you are saying MMO's are impossible without 3rd person, but a much higher reflex game like FPsers work then you just make no sense whatsoever. Back off before you make too big a fool of yourself.

3) I play both FPSers and MMO's. I find MMO's much much easier personally in terms of skill. I think it is time for more innovation away from the grade school tab target that is my opinion. It just makes combat mindless. It is pandering to low skill players

4) As for Elder Scrolls lore I'm glad you like it I think it is ok. But it is the immersive features that make Elder Scrolls games work, not the fact that the Dwemer did this or the Dark Elves did that. I enjoy lore too but it is all typical fantasy cliche's lets not pretend Elder Scrolls is something special and unique regarding lore. What is special and unique about Elder Scrolls are immersive features and if they get rid of them, not saying they will, but if they get rid of them it won't work.

[Luko]

It just makes combat mindless. It is pandering to low skill players

I have no interest in getting in the middle of the lovely semantics battle you two have going on, but this line in particular kinda struck me. Let's not refer 90% of the required successful MMO playerbase as a bad thing. Those "Low skill" players are and have always been essential in MMOs. They're supposed to be for everyone.

Really all I had to say. Little reminder for the sake of sanity.

[gainesvilleg]

I have no interest in getting in the middle of the lovely semantics battle you two have going on, but this line in particular kinda struck me. Let's not refer 90% of the required successful MMO playerbase as a bad thing. Those "Low skill" players are and have always been essential in MMOs. They're supposed to be for everyone.

Really all I had to say. Little reminder for the sake of sanity.

Yes there are many games like that. I play them. It is good to relax and play sometimes not have to worry about twitch skill. But I want an MMO that also is the other way, and maybe I just got a little overzealous because of the clear small mindedness of "MMO's cannot work this way" thinking. They most certainly CAN work that way, it is just frustrating to argue with somebody not capable of seeing beyond what current MMO's do. I will still play tab-target games, but it certainly isn't a requirement to be tab-target to be an MMO. That is my main point. By the way there is no requirement that MMO's need to be on PC's either, but that is an argument the next generation consoles will prove so I need not debate that point here either. And before you dismiss me as "console idiot" I play roguelikes, MMO's, Civ IV mods, dwarf fortress, etc on PCs I get it. Some games genres consoles cannot do but MMO's is not one of them

[Zeek Daniels]

Maybe you are scared of actually having to aim and are incapable, but most of the rest of us can handle it.

Its not about aiming its the fact that you feel the speed at which 1 arrow flys is comparable to a bullet. Not to mention the rate of fire in an FPS for the most part is way faster than an elderscrolls game. So Rate of Fire is higher and Travel speed is higher. You think targets will be easy to hit from playing previous Elderscrolls game but lets just look at how the AI operates. Most run straight at you, Dont zig zag, and stand in your face while you shoot them. Thats not happening against human players in an MMO.

[gainesvilleg]

Its not about aiming its the fact that you feel the speed at which 1 arrow flys is comparable to a bullet. Not to mention the rate of fire in an FPS for the most part is way faster than an elderscrolls game. So Rate of Fire is higher and Travel speed is higher. You think targets will be easy to hit from playing previous Elderscrolls game but lets just look at how the AI operates. Most run straight at you, Dont zig zag, and stand in your face while you shoot them. Thats not happening against human players in an MMO.

So you are saying you think it is impossible to balance range and melee in an Elder Scrolls game? I mean, cannot you guys just say "Well maybe they can tweak it to work." Here are some scenarios:

1) You make melee mobility slower than range mobility. So you can keep distance a little better as range
2) You increase the speed of arrows
3) You reduce the power of melee
4) You make melee misses stagger to give range more time
5) Make aiming more precise for Melee so it is harder to do damage up close,
Etc.

My point is there is much evidence out there, as in 99% of FPS games, than range can work without tab-target. And Planetside 2 proves it can work in MMOs too. And despite an earlier poster implying there is no melee in FPSers that just isn't true. They can easily tune melee to be even stronger. Halo 3 had strong melee especially for finishers and MW2 had strong knife especially for Commando perk. There is nothing fundamenally broken with non tab target ranged fighting in MMOs. It is ridiculous to claim there is an issue to be honest. The evidence is already out there that it works.

[fizzbob]

1) Ever heard of melee in Halo? Or combat knife in CoD? Melee is VERY imporant in Halo 3 for instance especially when using SMGs. 50% of close-up kills are finished off with a melee in Halo 3. In fact in MW2 many claimed melee was overpowered because of the lunge effect for knifing especially if you took the Commando perk. So, despite your claim to the contrary, melee is part of FPS games at least CoD and Halo. And just because your brain cannot comprehend anything other than the way other MMO's work, I'm telling you there is much evidence out there that other ways work too. Melee is only overpowered if you balance the game badly. To be honest range is overpowered in real life, FPSers, and unless poorly implemented they can be strong in MMO's too. Maybe you are scared of actually having to aim and are incapable, but most of the rest of us can handle it.

2) Again, saying "in an MMO it's 100% impossible" is just small minded "WoW did it that way" thinking. Think out of the box. And clearly you didn't watch the video I linked for technology ideas to peripheral vision. And there is a reason why FPS games are more popular than say Gears of War it is because the immersion of first person is preferred over the extra field of view of 3rd person. If you are saying MMO's are impossible without 3rd person, but a much higher reflex game like FPsers work then you just make no sense whatsoever. Back off before you make too big a fool of yourself.

3) I play both FPSers and MMO's. I find MMO's much much easier personally in terms of skill. I think it is time for more innovation away from the grade school tab target that is my opinion. It just makes combat mindless. It is pandering to low skill players

4) As for Elder Scrolls lore I'm glad you like it I think it is ok. But it is the immersive features that make Elder Scrolls games work, not the fact that the Dwemer did this or the Dark Elves did that. I enjoy lore too but it is all typical fantasy cliche's lets not pretend Elder Scrolls is something special and unique regarding lore. What is special and unique about Elder Scrolls are immersive features and if they get rid of them, not saying they will, but if they get rid of them it won't work.

look i've taken every stupid ass point you think you've made and spanked it. i really don't think you know what the hell immersion is, you are trying to tell me you can hit a moving target at distance easier than you can slap something that's in your face so you gotta have some rare form of CP or something, and you think you can simulate peripheral vision and make 1st person as good as 3rd person even though it's impossible to do.

you make fun of how easy wow is but play that shit in 1st person without DBM and you'd be useless in your average LFR. you couldn't even see the shit you're standing in, much less someone in pvp coming up from the side. no TES game has had full 1st person either. i can't think of a game that has. i know mods that never really got finished that attempted it, but it's a lot of work for nothing. you will never be IN the game and whether you see your feet or your hands in awkward, unrealistic positions in front of you or not, first person will never beat 3rd person as far as the info on your screen about what is going on around you.

NO GAME HAS BALANCED MELEE AND RANGED CLASSES WITHOUT TARGET LOCKING. a few have launched without it and added it later. FPS games just avoid the issue altogether by making everyone the same.

firefall has been trying to balance medium and long range classes (no melee classes) and has had a rough fucking time even doing that. at one point snipers could 1 shot you, but then we found out all the best snipers were using an aimbot because everyone who was really doing their own aiming was having a rough fucking time hitting all these moving targets from hundreds of yards away

so they changed hit detection, added a little splash damage and still, a jugg sees your tracer, finds you hiding and kicks your teeth in with his medium range, high splash damage attacks

the closer your target, the bigger your target. the bigger your target the easier it is to hit. until that is untrue, melee will dominate ranged completely without target locking

[gainesvilleg]

And look, I am a HUGE Elder Scrolls fan I'm not bashing Bethesda or their games. I'm bashing the notion many are posting here that "MMO's must work this way." That is so small minded. In fact Bethesda might be my favorite game developer in terms of what they try to accomplish. My Elder Scrolls characters have so many nuances to them, that only I can undestand as it is my characters that I play in my own way, but my characters are enabled by the game's flexibility and immersive features. If they get rid of those immersive features than it is not really an Elder Scrolls game. It is a WoW clone.

[fizzbob]

So you are saying you think it is impossible to balance range and melee in an Elder Scrolls game? I mean, cannot you guys just say "Well maybe they can tweak it to work." Here are some scenarios:

1) You make melee mobility slower than range mobility. So you can keep distance a little better as range
2) You increase the speed of arrows
3) You reduce the power of melee
4) You make melee misses stagger to give range more time
5) Make aiming more precise for Melee so it is harder to do damage up close,
Etc.

My point is there is much evidence out there, as in 99% of FPS games, than range can work without tab-target. And Planetside 2 proves it can work in MMOs too. And despite an earlier poster implying there is no melee in FPSers that just isn't true. They can easily tune melee to be even stronger. Halo 3 had strong melee especially for finishers and MW2 had strong knife especially for Commando perk. There is nothing fundamenally broken with non tab target ranged fighting in MMOs. It is ridiculous to claim there is an issue to be honest. The evidence is already out there that it works.

see, none of that balances anything. all you're suggesting is to make melee really bad so that ranged has a chance. "do all this stupid shit instead of just adding a target lock"

how much fucking skill is it going to take to hit a slow moving target that can only tickle you when it gets up close? awesome balance

halo 3 has no fucking melee class. COD has no fucking melee class. NO FPS ON EARTH has a fucking melee class. everything is ranged with a melee ability or two. it's just reality and you'll have to get over it

TESO is not going to forego target locking because it can NEVER work without it. you'll die never having experienced an MMO with ranged and melee classes that was balanced around lack of a target lock

[gainesvilleg]

look i've taken every stupid ass point you think you've made and spanked it. i really don't think you know what the hell immersion is, you are trying to tell me you can hit a moving target at distance easier than you can slap something that's in your face so you gotta have some rare form of CP or something, and you think you can simulate peripheral vision and make 1st person as good as 3rd person even though it's impossible to do.

you make fun of how easy wow is but play that shit in 1st person without DBM and you'd be useless in your average LFR. you couldn't even see the shit you're standing in, much less someone in pvp coming up from the side. no TES game has had full 1st person either. i can't think of a game that has. i know mods that never really got finished that attempted it, but it's a lot of work for nothing. you will never be IN the game and whether you see your feet or your hands in awkward, unrealistic positions in front of you or not, first person will never beat 3rd person as far as the info on your screen about what is going on around you.

NO GAME HAS BALANCED MELEE AND RANGED CLASSES WITHOUT TARGET LOCKING. a few have launched without it and added it later. FPS games just avoid the issue altogether by making everyone the same.

firefall has been trying to balance medium and long range classes (no melee classes) and has had a rough fucking time even doing that. at one point snipers could 1 shot you, but then we found out all the best snipers were using an aimbot because everyone who was really doing their own aiming was having a rough fucking time hitting all these moving targets from hundreds of yards away

so they changed hit detection, added a little splash damage and still, a jugg sees your tracer, finds you hiding and kicks your teeth in with his medium range, high splash damage attacks

the closer your target, the bigger your target. the bigger your target the easier it is to hit. until that is untrue, melee will dominate ranged completely without target locking

Only thing you have "spanked" is the notion of innovation. You are incapable of seeing MMO's in any way fundamentally different than WoW. It is the cold hard truth. The fact is, there are other ways of doing it and just because you are incapable of seeing it does not mean others cannot. There are a million ways to balance range and melee and anybody that has played Halo for instance knows how important melee is in a game supposedly dominated by ranged. It is clear how you think by your simplistic "The closer your target, the bigger your target..." LOL.

[fizzbob]

And look, I am a HUGE Elder Scrolls fan I'm not bashing Bethesda or their games. I'm bashing the notion many are posting here that "MMO's must work this way." That is so small minded. In fact Bethesda might be my favorite game developer in terms of what they try to accomplish. My Elder Scrolls characters have so many nuances to them, that only I can undestand as it is my characters that I play in my own way, but my characters are enabled by the game's flexibility and immersive features. If they get rid of those immersive features than it is not really an Elder Scrolls game. It is a WoW clone.

your TES toons don't have nuances about them. that's shit you're imagining (we call that roleplaying). in an MMO you can't play in a shitty way and expect it to work. you do not set the bar like you do in your RPG on easy mode. you can't bring everything down to your level in an MMO

if you want to do shit your way, there are consequences in an MMO. there is a best way to do shit and you do it that way or you're too bad to be useful. that's just how it is

you can't walk out on an NBA court and granny shoot 3s and hope to be the next ray allen either. there is a right way to do shit when other human beings are your competition.

[gainesvilleg]

And just to educate fizzbob even on a game as simplistic as CoD, you have many class ranges even if you ignore combat knife:

1) Shotgun which you can essentially call melee if you want
2) SMG which is basically short to medium range
3) Assault rifle which is basically medium to long range
4) Sniper which is primarily longer range but good players can play shorter range as well

Now Activision can easily make tweaks that give advantages to one range or the other. There are players who are very successful shotgunners and there are players that are very successful snipers. And there are even pro players whose specialty is knifing to be honest. There is NOTHING that says you cannot balance different ranges. Maybe you don't want to have to aim from ranged, and that is valid, but to say it cannot be done is just absurd and rankles those with an open mind.

[Pachycrocuta]

So you are saying you think it is impossible to balance range and melee in an Elder Scrolls game? I mean, cannot you guys just say "Well maybe they can tweak it to work." Here are some scenarios:

1) You make melee mobility slower than range mobility. So you can keep distance a little better as range
2) You increase the speed of arrows
3) You reduce the power of melee
4) You make melee misses stagger to give range more time
5) Make aiming more precise for Melee so it is harder to do damage up close,
Etc.

My point is there is much evidence out there, as in 99% of FPS games, than range can work without tab-target. And Planetside 2 proves it can work in MMOs too. And despite an earlier poster implying there is no melee in FPSers that just isn't true. They can easily tune melee to be even stronger. Halo 3 had strong melee especially for finishers and MW2 had strong knife especially for Commando perk. There is nothing fundamenally broken with non tab target ranged fighting in MMOs. It is ridiculous to claim there is an issue to be honest. The evidence is already out there that it works.

The only way to make ranged combat viable and keep people playing ranged instead of raging and going melee, is if you increase the speed of the arrow to be the same as a bullet, as well as increase the reload time to basically be a gun. Or, you make an arrow take 50%+ of the target's health, in which case everyone would just be ranged, which would greatly suck the fun out of this game (as would everyone going melee).

[fizzbob]

And just to educate fizzbob even on a game as simplistic as CoD, you have many class ranges even if you ignore combat knife:

1) Shotgun which you can essentially call melee if you want
2) SMG which is basically short to medium range
3) Assault rifle which is basically medium to long range
4) Sniper which is primarily longer range but good players can play shorter range as well

Now Activision can easily make tweaks that give advantages to one range or the other. There are players who are very successful shotgunners and there are players that are very successful snipers. And there are even pro players whose specialty is knifing to be honest. There is NOTHING that says you cannot balance different ranges. Maybe you don't want to have to aim from ranged, and that is valid, but to say it cannot be done is just absurd and rankles those with an open mind.

if this was a debate your own team would be acting like they didn't know you. you're embarrassing yourself at this point. trying to call shotguns, SMGs, assault rifles and sniper rifles "melee weapons"

just stop. you lose. you never had a chance anyway. like i said, you got a better chance at waking up in the morning and shitting 24k gold.

target lock makes it easier to hit what you're aiming at. this is NOT for melee classes, it's easy as melee no matter what, this is for ranged classes and always was. the solution to balance WAS target locking and removing that solution puts you back at square one

it's not going to happen. TESO is going to use target locking. accept it

[gainesvilleg]

your TES toons don't have nuances about them. that's shit you're imagining (we call that roleplaying). in an MMO you can't play in a shitty way and expect it to work. you do not set the bar like you do in your RPG on easy mode. you can't bring everything down to your level in an MMO

if you want to do shit your way, there are consequences in an MMO. there is a best way to do shit and you do it that way or you're too bad to be useful. that's just how it is

you can't walk out on an NBA court and granny shoot 3s and hope to be the next ray allen either. there is a right way to do shit when other human beings are your competition.

"there is a best way to do shit"

Again dude, I am sorry that is how you play and it is obviously how you think. You think there is only one way. In a well balance game there are multiple great ways to do shit. You are so stuck in your box it is impossible to even debate this anymore. I've played dozens of MMOs and dozens and dozens more other multiplayer games. There are many strategies and builds that work in all of these games. Sure in a spreadsheet you might be able to reduce it to just a few, but in practice we all have different styles and skills. Especially without the tab-target.

---------- Post added 2013-01-31 at 08:43 PM ----------

if this was a debate your own team would be acting like they didn't know you. you're embarrassing yourself at this point. trying to call shotguns, SMGs, assault rifles and sniper rifles "melee weapons"

just stop. you lose. you never had a chance anyway. like i said, you got a better chance at waking up in the morning and shitting 24k gold.

target lock makes it easier to hit what you're aiming at. this is NOT for melee classes, it's easy as melee no matter what, this is for ranged classes and always was. the solution to balance WAS target locking and removing that solution puts you back at square one

it's not going to happen. TESO is going to use target locking. accept it

Even you could hit somebody with a shotgun up close. How much more melee can it be then? And I'm not telling TESO what to do, I was just arguing against closed mindedness of the smaller brained here that think there is only one way to do things. Maybe for those working on the assembly line or in the cubicle. But the big brains innovate.

[fizzbob]

"there is a best way to do shit"

Again dude, I am sorry that is how you play and it is obviously how you think. You think there is only one way. In a well balance game there are multiple great ways to do shit. You are so stuck in your box it is impossible to even debate this anymore. I've played dozens of MMOs and dozens and dozens more other multiplayer games. There are many strategies and builds that work in all of these games. Sure in a spreadsheet you might be able to reduce it to just a few, but in practice we all have different styles and skills. Especially without the tab-target.

are you the 2h enhance shaman i saw in LFR doing 18k dps the other day?

no, in MMOs some things aren't viable, some aren't optimal, only optimal gets you to the top of PVE, PVP, whatever

there is even a best way to quest. a best way to level. a best way to use the AH. it's just a fact of life. take the best PVPers on earth, give them enhance shaman with a big 2h wep and they'd never break 1500 in arena. you can't use inferior tools and expect the same results.

you think you could outrun usain bolt just because you want to? no, you have to be faster than him. anything other than that means you lose.

i wish games had EVERYTHING perfectly balanced 24/7/365 but they just don't. now we've derailed the fuck out of this thread and i'm not going to respond anymore. say what you gotta say, call me a fagdaddy or whatever we'll be done and both move on.