The problem with Shaman talents

[Teriz]

As I see it, there are some very big issues with Shaman talents moving into the next expansion. Clearly some of these issues can be changed before MoP launches, but given that the main talents have changed little since February, and our level 90 talents were just brought in a little over a month ago (and given Blizzard's track record with addressing Shaman balance issues long after the expansion's release) I'm not very optimistic.

Here are my general concerns:

1. A couple of the talents are very weak or out of place in a given tier.

Examples: Totemic Projection, Windwalk Totem, Elemental Mastery

2. Certain tiers are highly lopsided towards a given spec.

Examples: Tier 5 and Tier 6.

3. Some talents are so overwhelmingly powerful that they defy the purpose of the new talents, since the majority of Shaman will choose those talents the majority of the time.

Examples: HTT (Resto), Call of Elements (all specs), Echo of Elements (Elemental)

4. Conversely, some talents work against a given spec because of mechanics.

Examples: Conductivity for Enhance, Frozen Power for Elemental

5. Some of the talents lack imagination, and are simply boring.

Examples: Tier 4

Keep in mind, #5 is an issue that other talent trees share, and is merely an opinion. However, Blizzard stripping Elemental Mastery and mirroring the mastery from Elemental and making them into level 60 talents is pretty darn lazy IMO. Compare Ancestral Swiftness for Shaman with Nature's Swiftness for Druids. Not only is Nature's Swiftness superior, but it comes a lot sooner, and does way more for Druids than AS does for Shaman. This is something that occurs over and over again throughout the tiers when you compare it to other hybrid classes.

[Aldrahan]

While I would agree with you on most points i would argue that windwalk totem is extremely useful for PvP. It's literally a Blessing of Freedom for your entire party.

[Teriz]

While I would agree with you on most points i would argue that windwalk totem is extremely useful for PvP. It's literally a Blessing of Freedom for your entire party.

Most PvP specs already have a method to escape snares, and to pick up this totem, you have to not get Frozen Power or EarthGrab, which would hinder your PvP effectiveness a lot more than not taking WW totem.

[Taalyn]

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/4837254076

Binkenstein did some initial testing and Elemental Mastery is the best of the lvl 60 choices for Elemtental due to using it with Ascendance.

That squashes two of your opinions for now.

[Eliot123]

Mm, somewhat disagree on Frozen Power not being useful for elemental, it seems insane for kiting in pvp.

[Teriz]

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/4837254076

Binkenstein did some initial testing and Elemental Mastery is the best of the lvl 60 choices for Elemtental due to using it with Ascendance.

That squashes two of your opinions for now.

I don't agree. A talent that is only viable because it works with a CD you don't get until level 87 doesn't make it a good talent.

Echo of Elements and Ancestral Swiftness are much more useful talents for Elemental across the board.

Mm, somewhat disagree on Frozen Power not being useful for elemental, it seems insane for kiting in pvp.

I didn't say FP wasn't useful for Elemental. I said that it works against the spec because Frozen Power shares a cooldown with Flame Shock and Earth Shock; two major components of Elemental DPS. If Frozen Power was on its own cooldown, it would be a LOT better choice for Elemental Shaman.

Don't misunderstand me though, I love Frozen Power, and I'm happy that Elemental has access to it. Its just that the spec and class mechanics with this spell are utterly frustrating and frankly very stupid.

[Taalyn]

I don't agree. A talent that is only viable because it works with a CD you don't get until level 87 doesn't make it a good talent.

Echo of Elements and Ancestral Swiftness are much more useful talents for Elemental across the board.

I didn't say it was a good talent. I was refuting your opinions that EM is weak overall and Echo of the Elements is the best for Elemental. You can disagree with math all you want it will get you nowhere.

The fact that EM is far and away the best means that tier of talents failed as far as Elemental Shamans are concerned. Whether that means the other two need buffs or it needs nerfs is a separate discussion.

[Teriz]

The fact that EM is far and away the best means that tier of talents failed as far as Elemental Shamans are concerned. Whether that means the other two need buffs or it needs nerfs is a separate discussion.

Not to draw this argument too far, I think the larger point is that we both agree that tier 4 is a failure for Elemental. If EM turns out to be that great for Ascension, Elemental Shaman will just spec into EoE until level 87, and then switch over to EM once they get the CD.

[Protoman]

I had a longer post but got lost so will rewrite it later.

But EM is not weak for Ele, and EoE is probably the weakest talent in that tier for Elem. EoE is the "obvious" choice for Enhance only.....and their problem being that both AS and EM are weak cause of haste. EM gives on demand burst, which is always better then rng sustained DPS. Elem can get 2 BL basically with BL and EM, plus both Ascend and Stormlash will benefit from haste cd's.



My biggest complaint with the talent tree is the lack of innovation. Lots of old and recycled talents, and almost nothing new/exciting that will change up our rotation or fill in some gap we are missing. Especially for T6, 2 talents are buffing pre-existing abilities, ULE and ele totems.....and EB is very bland and really lacking something.....for having a cd and T6 I would prefer it be instant, but if a cast time it should def do high burst damage. I would like to see it have some dual damage/healing, maybe a dot/hot or aoe splash aftereffect, and perhaps an execute effect where it does more damage/healing to targets <30% HP.

[Radux]

Not to draw this argument too far, I think the larger point is that we both agree that tier 4 is a failure for Elemental. If EM turns out to be that great for Ascension, Elemental Shaman will just spec into EoE until level 87, and then switch over to EM once they get the CD.

How is T4 a failure for Elemental Shaman? It's pure throughput. Throughput = more damage. Last I checked, that was a good thing.

[Teriz]

How is T4 a failure for Elemental Shaman? It's pure throughput. Throughput = more damage. Last I checked, that was a good thing.

Because if Rahdik is correct and EM works off of Ascendence the way Binkstein assumes then there's really no reason to choose the other talents in the tier because every Elemental Shaman will choose EM.

[Radux]

Because if Rahdik is correct and EM works off of Ascendence the way Binkstein assumes then there's really no reason to choose the other talents in the tier because every Elemental Shaman will choose EM.

If that's your logic, then Bloodlust is bad because it makes Ascendance better.

Seriously, saying a throughput tier providing throughput is bad is just outrageous.

[Teriz]

I had a longer post but got lost so will rewrite it later.

But EM is not weak for Ele, and EoE is probably the weakest talent in that tier for Elem. EoE is the "obvious" choice for Enhance only.....and their problem being that both AS and EM are weak cause of haste. EM gives on demand burst, which is always better then rng sustained DPS. Elem can get 2 BL basically with BL and EM, plus both Ascend and Stormlash will benefit from haste cd's.



My biggest complaint with the talent tree is the lack of innovation. Lots of old and recycled talents, and almost nothing new/exciting that will change up our rotation or fill in some gap we are missing. Especially for T6, 2 talents are buffing pre-existing abilities, ULE and ele totems.....and EB is very bland and really lacking something.....for having a cd and T6 I would prefer it be instant, but if a cast time it should def do high burst damage. I would like to see it have some dual damage/healing, maybe a dot/hot or aoe splash aftereffect, and perhaps an execute effect where it does more damage/healing to targets <30% HP.

I was about to mention this point in my original post, but decided against it. I agree with a lot of this. Druid talents for example fundamentally change how Druids work in MoP, because their talents are pretty innovative and utilize several aspects of Druid mechanics. With Shaman, it appears that they just took talents from the three old trees, revamped some discarded abilities, and cobbled the tree together. The lack of innovation in the Shaman talents is almost shocking (and boring).

[Zeek Daniels]

Sorry Op but im still taking EM over EoE. Also dont agree that tiers 5 and 6 are for a certain spec. I use healing rain on aoe healing fights all the time to help out a lil so i can see me using that if it did more healing than poping healing tide. I wouldnt use the other one but i do see its usefulness. How does conductivity work against Enh when they are always casting instant cast Lightning bolts? And how is frozen power for elemental bad? When you can keep melee classes at bay with a short cooldown shock that has more range than earthbind which is also on a longer Cd? Yay tier 4 lacks imagination! What is this a creative writing class?

I personally like all the talent tiers and love the new totems that come with.

[Teriz]

If that's your logic, then Bloodlust is bad because it makes Ascendance better.

Seriously, saying a throughput tier providing throughput is bad is just outrageous.

Its not bad because of performance, its bad because it goes against the point of the new talent system which is supposed to be about choice. Talents shouldn't be overwhelmingly more powerful than other talents. See point #3 in the OP.

[SIZE=1]---------- Post added 2012-05-05 at 02:17 AM ----------[/SIZE

How does conductivity work against Enh when they are always casting instant cast Lightning bolts?

You're not always casting instant cast lightning bolts. You have to build MW5 to do that. So after you spend the first MW5 getting the instant cast HR, you then either have to hard cast lightning bolts for the AoE heal, or rebuild MW5 for the instant LB again. How many of those do you think you can really get off before HR expires? To top it off, only 20% of that damage gets transferred as an AoE heal. Its just a bad talent all around, and its an abysmal talent for Enhance to take.

And how is frozen power for elemental bad? When you can keep melee classes at bay with a short cooldown shock that has more range than earthbind which is also on a longer Cd? Yay tier 4 lacks imagination! What is this a creative writing class?

I didn't say it was bad, I said FP works against the design and mechanics of the Elemental spec.

[Radux]

While I love and value Bink's theorycrafting, that specific example assumes basically a stand and nuke kinda fight and a certain level of gear. If you're already hitting close to that 1 second cast time, then EM will push you lower than that, thus wasting some of the effect. That's when something like EotE can really push ahead (as well as using it with something like Bloodlust, which would increase the chance of proccing it).

Take an example of a fight like Madness or Sinestra, fight gives you a hell of a lot of Haste, thus devaluing cooldowns like EM. In that situation you'd use something else (like EotE).

Changing talents for the encounter is the entire point of the talent system.

Looks like a win to me.

[Taalyn]

It is bad because it fails at Blizzard's new talent philosophy. Elemental Mastery isn't the best for specific things, it is the best for everything, or at least for fights lasting longer than 6 min. Binkenstein's reasoning is you can pair EM with Ascendance and then pair Bloodlust with Ascendance. EM + Ascendance outweighs Echo of the Elements procs or Nature's Swiftness passive haste and instant cast spells.

Even then, that is assuming you are not saving Ascendance for a specific part of a fight. If you wont get two uses of Ascendance, Elemental Mastery may not be the best.

For now, Elemental Mastery is the best but for now is not live so it is just something to keep an eye on. The main purpose of posting that info is to squash Teriz's uninformed opinions on EM and Echo.

@Radux: I will agree with Madness to an extent but not Sinestra. Since you only have those haste buffs for parts of the fight, EM would be useful for the other duration of the fight. That still doesn't mean it is the best, but at first glance it might not devalue it below Echo.

[Radux]

What you quoted was him saying the tier was bad because the math showed EM to be the clear winner, not that EM was a bad talent.

If EM is so much better than everything else that you always take EM no matter what then that's failed design.
Whether it's true or not that EM is the clear winner I have no idea, but if it is proven to be so good you'd never change to another talent that goes against their design goal.

Yeah I saw that with his next post. I agree that if you never change ever under any circumstance, it needs another look.

That said, I'd be hesitant to say with certainty that everyone will only take EM. I just don't think that'll be the case.

[Teriz]

My main gripe with tier 4 is that the talents are just lazy. EM is a stripped down version of the current version in the Elemental tree. Ancestral Swiftness is just Nature's Swiftness with passive haste (Windfury and Wrath of Air) rolled into it. Echo of Elements is the Mastery from Elemental Shaman. Due to that lack of innovation, problems like Ascension turning one of those talents OP is bound to show up.

[Radux]

I really have to ask... do you actually like any Shaman talents?

From this thread and the other, I've seen basically pure hate towards T2, T4, T5, and T6... with pokes at various talents in T1 and T3.