Anders Behring Breivik, what is going on ?

[Bakis]

But that IS what is wrong with society; open borders immigration.

Since you are speaking about muslim immigration, how is accepting refugees == open immigration ie. members of the EU.
As far as I know north/mid Africa, iranians, whatever is not part of the EU, so HOW is it open immigration?

Get your facts straight at least.

[haxartus]

And there are also a lot of Christians who view women and gay people as second class citizens, or even worse. Heck one of the Christian political parties here in the Netherlands had to be ordered by the European Court to allow women into their party. If it were up to that party; women wouldn't even have the right to vote.

So ? They can do whatever they want and you can choose not to elect them. Parties like these never get any serious power anyway.

[Bakis]

The only thing that I've been hearing is disagreement with the ruling on wether he's sane or not.

Guess you missed the 53 whatever posts about OMG 21 years in prison??? (also clueless about the possible(and likely) life in prison part)

[Jackmoves]

This made me wonder how people would view me if I moved to the US and still had a relatively Swedish lifestyle.

Whats a swedish lifestyle?
Puke your guts out on a sunday morning?

Only thing I could ever imagine being a problem is the differences of american vs swedish property rights. As our laws is founded and based on a much more "community" like mindset while in the US it's much more about the individual. We got a different perspective of what "freedom" is in this perticular area of the law(I'm thinking about the right to roam etc).

[Tierbook]

To Americans. It's kind of ironical, in almost every US-related thread, you keep telling Europeans to stay out of US's business, and then you Americans go mad over this, when i haven't heard a single Norwegian nor have i read an article about this (and i have read a lot of them) that said the families of the victims, the survivors and Norway in general weren't pleased with the sentence.

ehh you reap what you sow.... if you go to bash americans in thier threads we bash you in yours. You are one of the people i've seen to do this pretty often in fact...

[Deleted]

Since you are speaking about muslim immigration, how is accepting refugees == open immigration ie. members of the EU.
As far as I know north/mid Africa, iranians, whatever is not part of the EU, so HOW is it open immigration?

Get your facts straight at least.

Sorry, I did not understand what you meant. And wherever did I mention specifically muslim immigration?

[Bakis]

Sorry, I did not understand what you meant. And wherever did I mention specifically muslim immigration?

If you follow the debate the two posters had, the one you quoted, their discussion was about muslim immigration, but I guess you quote randomly.

[Austilias]

And there are also a lot of Christians who view women and gay people as second class citizens, or even worse. Heck one of the Christian political parties here in the Netherlands had to be ordered by the European Court to allow women into their party. If it were up to that party; women wouldn't even have the right to vote.

I don't agree with either, but to only point the blaming finger to Muslims is wrong.

Ah don't misunderstand, I point the finger at everyone who shares those sentiments but as it is, generally small cliques of Christians still actively maintain those beliefs and the campaign to see them implemented whereas they are defining aspects/qualities of Islam and are not currently seen to be in a position whereby those who uphold them will concede them to the vast majority of the civilised world who do not share those beliefs that overwhelming sections of society should be actively stoned/killed or oppressed.

[Deleted]

If you follow the debate the two posters had, the one you quoted, their discussion was about muslim immigration, but I guess you quote randomly.

First of all, I apologize if I hit a nerve.

Secondly, I'm not sure if I understand what you said, but what I was talking about is immigration from outside the EU. Since the EU is such a tight union, I felt it suitable to consider it a single border.

[Wikiy]

ehh you reap what you sow.... if you go to bash americans in thier threads we bash you in yours. You are one of the people i've seen to do this pretty often in fact...

Except i don't bash. If anything, i give my opinions based on European values. Of course that's going to sound offensive. All i'm asking, really, from both sides of the fence is that people realize America and Europe have completely different, often polarized, views, mentalities, values and moralities and that this has been so for a long, long time (enough that it's instilled in people through raising) so it's not surprising each side considers the other very strange.

[Bakis]

First of all, I apologize if I hit a nerve.

Secondly, I'm not sure if I understand what you said, but what I was talking about is immigration from outside the EU. Since the EU is such a tight union, I felt it suitable to consider it a single border.

Well, they were speaking about muslim immigration, then the poster you jumped in and quote brought up racists as a reply and suddenly your quote had nothing to do with those.
Either way I "might" have missunderstood. Explain what you meant by open immigration

[Jackmoves]

The only thing that I've been hearing is disagreement with the ruling on wether he's sane or not.

Same, the relatives to the victims they interviewed on tv here are satisfied with the conviction.

[Bakis]

Yes, it is society's fault that Islam and many of its adherents view women, gay people and others as second class citizens with less rights than straight, Islamic men. Riveting tale, chap.

Sounds like parts of Russia, US, any catholic country, muslim countries to me.

[Austilias]

The Islam? Which of the 27 schools of Islam are you referring to?
And many of its adherents? Because I would LOVE to see those statistics.

That would be if I ignored that tons of non-Islamic men also have those believes.
But you're right, the best way to fight a little intolerance is to discriminate everyone from an entire religion.

Well you see, this is where it gets interesting because the Qu'ran is quite clear on the matter.

The Quran in Sura (Chapter) 2:223 says: Your women are your fields, so go into your fields whichever way you like . . . . (MAS Abdel Haleem, The Qur’an, Oxford UP, 2004)

The Quran in Sura 2:228 says: Wives have the same rights as the husbands have on them in accordance with the generally known principles. Of course, men are a degree above them in status (Sayyid Abul A’La Maududi, The Meaning of the Qur’an, vol. 1, p. 165)

The Quran in Sura 4:11 says: The share of the male shall be twice that of a female (Maududi, vol. 1, p. 311)

The Quran in Sura 2:282 says: And let two men from among you bear witness to all such documents [contracts of loans without interest]. But if two men be not available, there should be one man and two women to bear witness so that if one of the women forgets (anything), the other may remind her. (Maududi, vol. 1, p. 205).

And that's just a few quotations. What you quoted of me however still stands; many Muslims maintain and agree with these proclamations, and Islam via the Qu'ran is clearly seen to hold women as lesser than men, never mind homosexuals and so on. Are there good Muslims? Of course; no where was I intolerant or discriminatory against every single Muslim. Am I intolerant and discriminatory of Islam? Absolutely. Once again, you've failed to demonstrate how pointing out what are dangerous and very clearly presented beliefs/aspects of a belief system, and rightly being wary of that aforementioned system and those who claim to be proud and devoted acolytes, is anything but common, reasonable sense; meaninglessly yammering on about 'intolerance' like a police siren does little to address the facts.

---------- Post added 2012-08-25 at 09:40 PM ----------

Sounds like parts of Russia, US, any catholic country, muslim countries to me.

And I condemn them all for those things; but within reason and only regarding those specific matters and other such breaches of equality. It's those who shout racism at the drop of a hat and brand anyone who calls out either belief systems or countries for downright abominable beliefs and persuasions, and more to the point present the facts of the matter, as intolerant or discriminatory who have the answering to do.

[Bakis]

Bible says alot of shit as well, like not eating some kind of fish or wear cloth made of wool etc. Point is not every religious person regardless of religion take their holy book literally.

As I see it we dont really have an immigration issue, (can only speak of Sweden), we got integration issues. Those issues does indeed in some cases gets reinforced by cultural things like alot of muslim refugees ending up in Sweden would never think of the possibility of a woman working ie. welfare. After 1-2 generations they integrate and they do work.
Again, speaking of Sweden, it is an integration issue not a muslim issue. The fact that we lack labourers, we give birth to less children and later in life and that study after study shows that our economy actually grow due to all form of immigration including refugess speaks for itself.

[Booshman]

Afraid not - I didn't mean any protest march or rally. But there is a Dutch/Belgian department of Stormfront afaik.

Oh, ok. I think I'm fully caught up now. What you meant a few quotes ago, is that they're irrelevant in The Netherlands? If that's so, then it's the same case in America and in Australia.

[Austilias]

Bible says alot of shit as well, like not eating some kind of fish or wear cloth made of wool etc. Point is not every religious person regardless of religion take their holy book literally.

As I see it we dont really have an immigration issue, (can only speak of Sweden), we got integration issues. Those issues does indeed in some cases gets reinforced by cultural things like alot of muslim refugees ending up in Sweden would never think of the possibility of a woman working ie. welfare. After 1-2 generations they integrate and they do work.
Again, speaking of Sweden, it is an integration issue not a muslim issue. The fact that we lack labourers, we give birth to less children and later in life and that study after study shows that our economy actually grow due to all form of immigration including refugess speaks for itself.

http://majorityrights.com/weblog/com...ave_in_sweden/
http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/938
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...muslims07.html

All does not seem well on the Western front, and that's only Sweden. When you have all rapes in Oslo being committed by Muslims for example, I think it's pretty clear that immigration/integration issues are abound and seem far from getting any better.

[Lefthandpath]

a few things bother me about this thread/story:

1. the news.

not just american, but it seems other countries as well are leaving out the part that norway can add time on....and that most likely he'll serve a life sentence. they way they are reporting it is clearly just a cheap attempt to grab our attention. they got it, and we are dummer for it. in short, we got trolled by the press, and that should never happen, sadly its becoming the rule and not the exception.

2. the crime and punishment debate.

rehab and vengeance seem to be the main theme going back and forth here. i also see the "you silly americans lock everyone up forever" statement. when it comes to drug laws, ill gladly admit that we are wrong in that area. its something more and more americans are comming around to believing as well, and in my life time i expect to see it change. take away the silly drug offenses, and i fully support our punishment system for rapists, murderers, and the like. maybe clean up the racial bias and give the death penalty actual teeth by removing the absurdly long appeals process OR get rid of the death penalty entire, and i think we have a punishment system thats one to be proud of.

there comes a point when someone forfeits their right to interact with civilized society. its not a punishment to say "hey man, everytime you come over to my house when I'm having a party, you get drunk, break stuff and start fights. you are no longer welcome in my house". thats not punishment, thats protecting your house guests and yourself from someone that doesnt know how to play nice.

science is so far from understanding how to cure sociopaths that even talking about rehab in this matter is pure fantasy. you might as well suggest that if only this fella could ride a unicorn, hed be a nice guy again. i wanna ridea unicorn too, but it aint likely to happen in the near future.

that being said, anything short of a life sentence is foolish. he had his chance to be a contributing member of society, and he pissed on it. not only that, but afterwards he told everyone hed gladly do it again.

3. immigration.

as an american, i gotta chuckle a bit about how europeans are dealing with the middle eastern invasion. i sympathize, really, but theres a feeling of "suck it up rookie, theres more where that came from" that i just cant shake. the U.S. is a nation of immigrants, in fact when you bash the U.S., i hope most of you are aware that yer bashing yer cousins (literally), and in most cases just bashing yourselves. walking downa street in the U.S. you are more likely to see people that look nothing like you than seeing someone that does. in most european countries its so homogenous its almost a bit creepy to me. i can see how 10 middle easterners on a corner in norway would look like "AMG AN INVASION", but in the U.S., its just life. sure, there are a few states that are pretty anglo-saxon-ish (vermont is the whitest state at somewhere around 93%) but in the state that i live in (california) white folks are the minority. our boarder states (california, arizona, new mexico, and texas) have a HUGE mexican/latino population. it dwarfs any comparison going on in europe right now. be it turks in germany or palestinians in the U.K. .at the risk of turning this into an immigration pissing contest, you'll just have to take my word for it, or go look up the stats on yer own. ive looked em up before, and im simply too lazy to re post em here. yall are complaining about a drop of water when over here we are in a hurricane.

the best part is, even though that should give some piece of mind (hey the americans are enduring heavy immigration, we can to!), even us americans deal with our immigration problem in a crappy manner. we forget that before mexicans, the irish and itallians were some kind of gutter culture that would bring down the U.S., and even before that the germans believe it or not.

if history teaches us anything, its that resistance is futile, both for the host country and the immigrants. both will assimilate the other, and life will go on. the only thing that really changes is that we have a more diverse diet, and maybe one more holiday.

sounds like a good thing to me...

[Kuntantee]

You see, that would be fine, because Sweden as far as I know does not have anything equivalent to Sharia, does not view women as second class citizens, does not stone people who are gay or who even share in one another's country when unwedded.

Please stop trying to conflate racism with the perfectly rational fear of all that is Islam; it is a belief system that does not compromise, nor does it respect the basic rights of millions. My stance on this is simple; when in Rome, don't do as Rome's worst do, and that would include as it would in every country, the maltreatment of women and minorities. Anders Behring Breivik was a reckless fool, but I find it all the more revolting when the people who establish themselves at the top of the moral high ground are multiculturalist zealots who neglect to point out, recognise or challenge the most horrible beliefs and religious duties/orders/imperatives for fear of being branded a racist; and what's more, make strides to positively welcome and facilitate them.

Please do not spread miss information about Islam if you have no clue about it and please do not link some poor interpretations of Qur'an.

One note: after I've seen all this hate to Muslims I really doubt I would work in Europe. The racism in you is strong(or racists are vocal minorty -- I hope this is the case) and you refuse to learn the truth.

[Bakis]

http://majorityrights.com/weblog/com...ave_in_sweden/
http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/938
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...muslims07.html

All does not seem well on the Western front, and that's only Sweden. When you have all rapes in Oslo being committed by Muslims for example, I think it's pretty clear that immigration/integration issues are abound and seem far from getting any better.

Come on, whats your point with the first two links. One from a forum and the other from "the voice of conservatism" tsss.
Never said all was all fine and dandy but I would not post biased links to prove my point.

When you have all rapes in Oslo being committed by Muslims for example

Any link showing that all reported rapes are being commited by muslims or is this just another idea you got that goes along with you links?