Jaina's Newfound Hatred of the Horde

[Talen]

Yes, getting beaten by blackmoore is surely a nice well treated experience, being told to fight wave after wave of warriors until you faltered was treated well.

Once. He was actually failry well treated until then....he even admired Blackmoore.

As for the second war ending part... very few actually cared about the orcs.. most just wanted to execute them, only the mages saw sense in the matter.

And Varian who was one of those who voted not to kill them.

EJL

[Deleted]

Yes I did...and bite me. The Horde had their "It's not our fault" at the Wrathgate. The Forsaken are part of Horde and as such their actions reflect back on said Horde. And i noticed you failed to mention about Ashenvale. Wassamatter? Lack of eloquence or lack of knowledge?

You clearly don't know much about her. She knows all magic except Fel. Something spelled out for you when she pyroblasts you in the Endtime, or back when people raided her...fun times.

She also teleports, deals FROST BLADES and deals out FROST bolts more... she knows other magic.. but she is the MASTER of Teleportation and FROST magic. You see, here is where we come to the crux of why I think this change, and the people who support it, are stupid.

Jaina was the advocate for peace among the Alliance, she had strong pull and could in theory stop the Alliance from butting heads with the Horde.

Thrall was her counterpart, and his wisdom would be backed by Baine and Vol'jin.


Now... instead with have no Alliance counterparts and three people who are willing to go for peace among the Horde... said three people are also pulling their punches against the Alliance, you see very little Tauren activity besides the few odd soldiers, same with the Trolls. Now that Jaina is giving Thrall the practical middle finger.. what honestly stops the Horde from steamrolling the Alliance out of Kalimdor?

Last I checked Garrosh almost took Ashenvale with Orcs alone.. considering a Tauren is worth almost 5 Orcs and trolls going back to their voodoo heritage... Is it wise to piss off the Horde so much they unite under a banner of bloodshed?

---------- Post added 2012-06-04 at 03:08 AM ----------

Once. He was actually failry well treated until then....he even admired Blackmoore. And Varian who was one of those who voted not to kill them.

EJL

Being treated as a pet is not being treated well, and Varian had no kingdom to decide upon who would live or die.. so what does his opinion count anyway?

Also.. stop signing posts like your someone worth a shit, it makes you look pompus when you're wrong.

[RyanEX]

Yes, getting beaten by blackmoore is surely a nice well treated experience, being told to fight wave after wave of warriors until you faltered was treated well. He was kept alive and fit, he was a slave to everything about him though, And only two people ever showed him a glimmer of respect of compassion, Sergeant and Tarethra. Let's compare it to Varian who is treated as a fair Gladiator more than anything else, he's treated with honour and respect by those around him.

As for the second war ending part... very few actually cared about the orcs.. most just wanted to execute them, only the mages saw sense in the matter.

You....I....

Do you actually READ or do you just skim to the parts that you think you like.

Thrall was raised from a baby by Blackmoore. Taught to read, taught strategy and also taught basic fighting moves. His motives were evil, but until coming down to the end when he started drinking he treated Thrall VERY well. Which is why Thrall was reluctant to leave UNTIL said marathon fight. And even then, he was reluctant to fight him UNTIL he tossed out Tarethra's head.

Do you have any idea how jaded and...and ...stupid you sound with the Second war?

The Alliance LEADERS, of which Varian was one, voted on whether or not to execute the orcs. Ironically Varian voted against killing them while the High Elves (later Blood Elves) voted to execute iirc. Irony much.

[Deleted]

A civilian hunting outpost that recruits, trains and equips members of the horde military. It was a valid military target. So is Theramore. However, the Alliance didn't invade intending to commit massacre, they didn't go in intending to kill off every living thing, and they didn't. So far, it seems thats not the case for the Horde assualt on Theramore.

EJL

Yes, I am sure the fact that it actually equipped Adventuers and not the Horde Military itself, and was itself majority a Tauren trading and hunting outpost surely makes it a military target. Let's not forget they killed civilians including mothers of children and a fucking cloth vendor who did nothing military.

Oh and I am sure the Looters rifiling through the bodies are doing it purely on a just manner.

---------- Post added 2012-06-04 at 03:12 AM ----------

The Alliance LEADERS, of which Varian was one, voted on whether or not to execute the orcs. Ironically Varian voted against killing them while the High Elves (later Blood Elves) voted to execute iirc. Irony much.

You know.. I have never actually heard of this shit until lately.. is this a retcon? Because how could a STORMWIND king who is about 16 vote on matters when the leaders of the Alliance at the time were the kings of the North.. and Stormwind was not counted among them?

[Talen]

Yes, I am sure the fact that it actually equipped Adventuers and not the Horde Military itself, and was itself majority a Tauren trading and hunting outpost surely makes it a military target.

As a matter oif fact - it does. Mnay of thsoe adventurers were part of the Horde military after all.

Let's not forget they killed civilians including mothers of children and a fucking cloth vendor who did nothing military.

Except pick up a weapon and attack Allaicne soldiers in a time of war. That makes him a combatant.

Oh and I am sure the Looters rifiling through the bodies are doing it purely on a just manner.

These would be the looters the Alliance arrested and put on trial for...looting. Do you think we will see Garrosh put his generals and troops involved in Theramore on Trial for genocide? Mass murder?Littering?

EJL

[RyanEX]

She also teleports, deals FROST BLADES and deals out FROST bolts more... she knows other magic.. but she is the MASTER of Teleportation and FROST magic. You see, here is where we come to the crux of why I think this change, and the people who support it, are stupid.

Jaina was the advocate for peace among the Alliance, she had strong pull and could in theory stop the Alliance from butting heads with the Horde.

Thrall was her counterpart, and his wisdom would be backed by Baine and Vol'jin.


Now... instead with have no Alliance counterparts and three people who are willing to go for peace among the Horde... said three people are also pulling their punches against the Alliance, you see very little Tauren activity besides the few odd soldiers, same with the Trolls. Now that Jaina is giving Thrall the practical middle finger.. what honestly stops the Horde from steamrolling the Alliance out of Kalimdor?

Last I checked Garrosh almost took Ashenvale with Orcs alone.. considering a Tauren is worth almost 5 Orcs and trolls going back to their voodoo heritage... Is it wise to piss off the Horde so much they unite under a banner of bloodshed?

---------- Post added 2012-06-04 at 03:08 AM ----------



Being treated as a pet is not being treated well, and Varian had no kingdom to decide upon who would live or die.. so what does his opinion count anyway?

Also.. stop signing posts like your someone worth a shit, it makes you look pompus when you're wrong.

I'm begining to wonder if you're deliberately stirring things up in attempt to get the thread locked. You seem to be going out of your way to provoke people.

Meh, I've got thick skin. Again you need to read up on your lore. It's called THE HORDE for a reason and the leader the WARCHIEF for a bigger one. Doesn't matter if you like war or not, the warchief says "Kill" you say "How many".

The Alliance on the other had has leaders who all have to agree before anything is done. And Jaina was always the dissenting vote on war.

And apparently you never read the novel..or once again just skimmed it...since it mentions LARGE numbers of goblins with shredders. More than a few Tauren and trolls and even the odd Blood Elf. The only orcs you hear about are Garrosh, Brill and the Kor'Kron. So yeah, a UNITED Alliance army smacked a HORDE army that was backed by Magnataur.

Stormwind ring a bell? Large stone town, burn't out park, church in the middle. He was regent of that kingdom and it's survivors.

[Deleted]

Except pick up a weapon and attack Allaicne soldiers in a time of war. That makes him a combatant.

These would be the looters the Alliance arrested and put on trial for...looting. Do you think we will see Garrosh put his generals and troops involved in Theramore on Trial for genocide? Mass murder?Littering?

EJL

Except the Cloth and leatherworking vendors didn't pick up weapons and were killed anyway, totally awesome on that eh?

And if the looters were put on trail, why is there nothing mentioning the fact?


Let's not forget that he HAS trailed people on their methods of war, Stonetalon shows that.

But the last comment I make is the one thats the most hilarious.


Theramore - large fortress, designed for war, filled to the brim with battleships, tanks and barracks for troops.

Taujario - small hunting town.


And you defend attacking the HUNTING town.. but say Theramore was an unjust target?


You my friend, are delusional.

[RyanEX]

[/COLOR]

You know.. I have never actually heard of this shit until lately.. is this a retcon? Because how could a STORMWIND king who is about 16 vote on matters when the leaders of the Alliance at the time were the kings of the North.. and Stormwind was not counted among them?[/QUOTE]


Retcon...(this is the sound of me facepalming). This is common lore knowledge since WC3.

[Dreknar20]

As a matter oif fact - it does. Mnay of thsoe adventurers were part of the Horde military after all.

Except pick up a weapon and attack Allaicne soldiers in a time of war. That makes him a combatant.

These would be the looters the Alliance arrested and put on trial for...looting. Do you think we will see Garrosh put his generals and troops involved in Theramore on Trial for genocide? Mass murder?Littering?

EJL

do we even know that Garrosh committs mass murder or genocide?
Because it is not murder or genocide if colateral damage

Innocent Civilans were still killed in the Southern Barrens
Its pretty impossible for civilans to not be killed tho
If your fighting in a populated area, civilans will die no matter what you do

Unless of course you are fighting in the middle of nowhere

[Deleted]

And apparently you never read the novel..or once again just skimmed it...since it mentions LARGE numbers of goblins with shredders. More than a few Tauren and trolls and even the odd Blood Elf. The only orcs you hear about are Garrosh, Brill and the Kor'Kron. So yeah, a UNITED Alliance army smacked a HORDE army that was backed by Magnataur.

"a few Tauren and Trolls"

thats not All the Tauren and Trolls then is it?

Thats not Vol'jin voodooing up some deathmojo..

Thats not Baine smashing people apart.


Thats a passing mention of a few Tauren and Trolls.

---------- Post added 2012-06-04 at 03:24 AM ----------

[/COLOR]

You know.. I have never actually heard of this shit until lately.. is this a retcon? Because how could a STORMWIND king who is about 16 vote on matters when the leaders of the Alliance at the time were the kings of the North.. and Stormwind was not counted among them?

Retcon...(this is the sound of me facepalming). This is common lore knowledge since WC3.[/QUOTE]


What? That Varian ( whose name has changed and personality DRAMATICALLY changed ) had a say in the council that decided the fate of the orcs? When I last checked names were not mentioned on who said what, and I have played since warcraft 1.

[RyanEX]

do we even know that Garrosh committs mass murder or genocide?

.....

Talen ever feel like your talking to people with selective hearing?

[Deleted]

do we even know that Garrosh committs mass murder or genocide?
Because it is not murder or genocide if colateral damage

Innocent Civilans were still killed in the Southern Barrens
Its pretty impossible for civilans to not be killed tho
If your fighting in a populated area, civilans will die no matter what you do

Unless of course you are fighting in the middle of nowhere

It's only mass murder if the Horde does it I guess.

---------- Post added 2012-06-04 at 03:26 AM ----------

.....

Talen ever feel like your talking to people with selective hearing?

I do all the damn time, you and Mr sign his posts are the most up-your-own-arse Alliance fans ever.

You argue that the Alliance does everything nice but the Horde do everything wrong, you argue that a hunting town is some kind of Military instillation and then say Theramore is unjustly attacked.

Both sides have done bad and good things. Thats the point of the game, what people are against is the sudden demonizing of the horde and the Alliance suddenly becoming victims!

You know nothing, good day sir.

Infracted

[RyanEX]

"a few Tauren and Trolls"

thats not All the Tauren and Trolls then is it?

Thats not Vol'jin voodooing up some deathmojo..

Thats not Baine smashing people apart.


Thats a passing mention of a few Tauren and Trolls.

---------- Post added 2012-06-04 at 03:24 AM ----------




Retcon...(this is the sound of me facepalming). This is common lore knowledge since WC3.

What? That Varian ( whose name has changed and personality DRAMATICALLY changed ) had a say in the council that decided the fate of the orcs? When I last checked names were not mentioned on who said what, and I have played since warcraft 1.[/QUOTE]


Oh oh..I can play this game too.

Velen wasn't there smiting the ever living crap out of everyone.

Muradin wasn't there bringing the pain.

Better yet. MALFURION wasn't there, bringing the whole forest to life to exact some righteous vengeance for the near murder of his wife.

...Read Rise of the Lich King...and the WC3 manual...please.

---------- Post added 2012-06-04 at 02:31 AM ----------

It's only mass murder if the Horde does it I guess.

---------- Post added 2012-06-04 at 03:26 AM ----------



I do all the damn time, you and Mr sign his posts are the most up-your-own-arse Alliance fans ever.

You argue that the Alliance does everything nice but the Horde do everything wrong, you argue that a hunting town is some kind of Military instillation and then say Theramore is unjustly attacked.

Both sides have done bad and good things. Thats the point of the game, what people are against is the sudden demonizing of the horde and the Alliance suddenly becoming victims!

You know nothing, good day sir.

/waves Later Mr up-your-own-arse Horde fan.

And we never said it was unjust. Just that it was a bad idea. But feel free to interpret. You've been doing that all night.

Infracted

[Deleted]

What? That Varian ( whose name has changed and personality DRAMATICALLY changed ) had a say in the council that decided the fate of the orcs? When I last checked names were not mentioned on who said what, and I have played since warcraft 1.

Oh oh..I can play this game too.
[/QUOTE]

Wow.. way to miss the point of my post. I was not trying to compare powerlevels to you like some cheap Anime. I was explaining how the Tauren did not majorly back the Horde attack on Ashenvale and the same for the Trolls.. you saw a few trolls and a few Tauren as soldiers of the Horde.. but Thunderbluff and the Echo Isles were not there in full force. The Horde is a splintered faction.. their leaders not as willing to converse as the Alliance, but if they would, the Alliance would be hard-pressed to keep a true foothold on Kalimdor.

[Talen]

Except the Cloth and leatherworking vendors didn't pick up weapons and were killed anyway, totally awesome on that eh?

People die in war. People dying in war, however, does not equate to a deliberate plan amounting to genocide. From what we know, a lot of people survived Taurajo. Many of those who died appear to have picked up weapons and attacked. The situation at Theramore appears, at the minute, to be very different.

Theramore - large fortress, designed for war, filled to the brim with battleships, tanks and barracks for troops.

Taurajo - small hunting town.


And you defend attacking the HUNTING town.. but say Theramore was an unjust target?


You my friend, are delusional.

If you'd bothered reading my response....BOTH were valid targets. The difference is not why they were attacked...it was how.

EJL

[Deleted]

And we never said it was unjust. Just that it was a bad idea. But feel free to interpret. You've been doing that all night.

It's a bad idea to finally get rid of the enemy on your doorstep? Thats not what you have been arguing you've nay saying about it all the time and calling it "Genocide" and other such stupid terms. Theramore was a fortress that was open to the heartlands of the Horde, Jaina was lucky Thrall didn't burn it to the ground in the first place.

---------- Post added 2012-06-04 at 03:40 AM ----------

People die in war. People dying in war, however, does not equate to a deliberate plan amounting to genocide. From what we know, a lot of people survived Taurajo. Many of those who died appear to have picked up weapons and attacked. The situation at Theramore appears, at the minute, to be very different.

If you'd bothered reading my response....BOTH were valid targets. The difference is not why they were attacked...it was how.

EJL

Jesus christ you are stupid.


people SURVIVING an attack on a place does not make it alright, Civilians defending themselves against soldiers is not alright. Looting the corpses of said Civilians is not alright.

A small hunting village with a high civilian populace is NOT a valid target against a large fortress designed and filled to the brim with hostile soldiers and weaponry AND a fleet that is actively attacking your land.

[Dreknar20]

People die in war. People dying in war, however, does not equate to a deliberate plan amounting to genocide. From what we know, a lot of people survived Taurajo. Many of those who died appear to have picked up weapons and attacked. The situation at Theramore appears, at the minute, to be very different.

If you'd bothered reading my response....BOTH were valid targets. The difference is not why they were attacked...it was how.

EJL

We dont know any details about Thermore though

After listening to the voice acting, this is what we can assume so far
The Horde launch an attack, and it fails against Thermore's defenses
The Horde then sends the players to weaken some of the Humans defenses and save some "Spy"

Alliance questing revolves around the aftermath i think
Killing off some Horde soliders and recovering some artifact

Thats about all we know for now

My guess (and let me say again this is me guessing)
Is when Horde players save this spy
He tells the player that they can use the Focusing Iris to create a massive explosion
and then thats what they do

[Uennie]

I like it, it was good to hear some passion come from her. I think it's great that the Alliance can stop harping on how Jaina is practically neutral ...

[Florena]

Taurajo was a tragedy, but the Alliance took measures to avoid that. But due to disobedient looting soldiers and bad intelligence, the plan to spare the civilians didn't go according to plan. That doesn't mean the Alliance is clear of any fault, but at least the commanded intended for the civilians to get away. And the looters, in the Alliance quest, you actually go back and arrest for their crimes, so they do NOT get off free. That said, civilians did still die so the Alliance is still to blame for those deaths.

It looks like in Theramore, no such mercy is given to the Alliance.

We DO know that a lot of people die. "This abberation destroyed everything. Everyone." That is a VERY strong hint that most if not all of Theramore's people do not make it out alive. Not to mention the Horde scenario has you A. burn the ships and B. kill the flightmatser. Sounds to me like ways to keep any survivors from fleeing.

[Dreknar20]

Taurajo was a tragedy, but the Alliance took measures to avoid that. But due to disobedient looting soldiers and bad intelligence, the plan to spare the civilians didn't go according to plan. That doesn't mean the Alliance is clear of any fault, but at least the commanded intended for the civilians to get away. And the looters, in the Alliance quest, you actually go back and arrest for their crimes, so they do NOT get off free. That said, civilians did still die so the Alliance is still to blame for those deaths.

It looks like in Theramore, no such mercy is given to the Alliance.

We DO know that a lot of people die. "This abberation destroyed everything. Everyone." That is a VERY strong hint that most if not all of Theramore's people do not make it out alive. Not to mention the Horde scenario has you A. burn the ships and B. kill the flightmatser. Sounds to me like ways to keep any survivors from fleeing.

or a way to cripple their defenses

Taking extra steps to provide safety for the enemy population is beyond the call of duty
Most armies, even in the real world, dont bother with such a thing

To me, having alot of civilans die as a result of a Siege or battle is not genocide or mass murder
In my book, genocide or mass murder can only occur outisde of battle
Killing civilans or troops for no other reason but to kill them is genocide or murder
But it has to serve absolutly no military or other purpose