So it seems rogues are fine

[Verain]

Interesting doesn't mean the specs will work. A ranged rng slow is nice but doesn't fix any of the many many other issues holding rogues back in pvp on beta. If crippling was still 70% it could be something but with everyone being 50% (dk's still have a 60%) its not that great. This plus burst of speed could be something if it didn't cost 120 energy.. Just to many things holding all our specs back.

Burst costs 60 right? I mean, I get that it's a lot, and in fact I think we'll actually be burst into bos for everything but certain comps, but it's not that out of line for the effect.

Shuriken throw having a snare is more than we guessed based on dev chatter. If deadly throw glyph only stayed the same, we'd be in pretty good shape!
I think DKs and rets both have immunity to snares (DKs literally, paladins have to press buttons), and both have ranged snares (60 and 50% respectively), and warriors and monks pretty much ARE ranged attacks, so it's pretty clear that they want us to be kiteable most of the time, or have energy issues (burst costing 60).

I think the idea is that doing a shuriken throw with say, mind numbing and deadly brew will apply a tie-snare (Everyone has a 50% ranged snare now, right? does ANYONE not have a 50% ranged snare?), but also the 25% casting snare, and that will be kind of ok.

[Wow]

The feeling of the Rogue class feeling so mundane comes form the lack of crit talents, and being energy starved. This is not just a PVP problem, but also a PVE problem.

I think the lack of crit talents is going to make us a balancing nitemare. Rogue's dmg is balanced around critting semi often, I have 9% crit at 90 if I pop a trinket and pot I get 3700 more agi my crit only moves to 12%. To fix sub and assassination doing less finishers everything will have to do more dmg. And then be the end of the expansion we will have high crit again making our dmg very high. You can't balance dmg around not ever critting and then have it start crit a lot.

The simplest fix to this is just give the bonus crit back.

---------- Post added 2012-06-05 at 04:03 PM ----------

Burst costs 60 right?

It costs 60 to remove movement impairing effects then another 60 to go anywhere.

[Itisamuh]

All I know is that putting ShS and Prep on the same tier is going to butcher rogue PvP, since both are mandatory.

[Verain]

I would actually prefer being balanced around a lower crit rate than a higher, because it means that the moves will be threatening without crits- and it means when we DO chain crits, stuff can actually get owned. That being said, 9% sounds shockingly low. I would expect 15% as a floor for rogue crit rates, and a nice 10% boost to crit chances with certain moves would still leave them with a decent baseline.

Still, there was nothing wrong with the old way of high crit rates and low base damages.

You do have a fair point about Burst of Speed, because it seems like it is designed to be only optimal for Combat.

I think it was modelled after improved sprint, though that move is sadly gone. In fact, I predict that as one of the possible gap closing fixes if we aren't able to stay on target much (or they'll just assume burst is fine).

I suspect that shadow blades will really help combat, but it would be nice if combat had another trick to deal with heavily armored opponents that is spec specific, just as Find Weakness and good poisons plus envenom is for S and A.

Shadowstep probably has a big cooldown right now because they know what it is like if they give it a smaller one, and they maybe want to see testing. It is also possible that a huge cooldown on shadowstep, compared to very favorable treatment for charge, feral charge, roll, other monk choo choo train kick, is intended, but I suspect that it will be obviously unfair, though we'll likely have to go live with a 24 second gap closer in the land of 8-15 second gap closers.

[Wow]

though we'll likely have to go live with a 24 second gap closer in the land of 8-15 second gap closers.

If rogues go live anywhere near like they are in beta right now they will be 100% dead in pvp.

[Mafic]

Deadly Throw seems superflous with the way Shuriken Toss works, and Nerve Strike looks far more appealing as a result. It seems to me they should have left Deadly Throw base line, but most likely they want Deadly Throw and Shuriken Toss synergy to be an opportunity cost.

[redderz1]

Blizzard Has been insanely lazy when it comes to rogues. Rogue has had 1/10th of the effort of other classes.

They have basically done nothing more than rip apart Sub and give its abilities to Assa and Combat to bring them up in PvP.

Then they nerfed 50% of the abilities. Then they took away Crit+ (which still remains with other classes).

Our rotations are slow and boring, were constantly energy starved, we have poor mobility and survivability and we have nothing new or cool or interesting (shadoblades is a + dps button, shroud is a useless gimick).

Until Blizzard decide to listen (probably about patch 5.2 - 5.3 where they will make pretty big changes for rogues then pat themselves on the back for listening to the community) we will be gimped in PvP and I simply will not be leveling my rogue.

I also play mage (fire) and honestly cannot see a rogue getting anywhere near me. If by some miracle they do, they will do 12k backstabs in answer to my 50k pyroblasts.

Blizz has simply nerfed rogue down to a base level while they tinker with their new toys. They will then slowly buff them throughout MoP and will probably end up OP at the end of the expansion.......at which point every scrub will come out of the woodwork with "omg....rogues op for whole expansion again....nerf now!".

[Deleted]

Then they took away Crit+ (which still remains with other classes).

No, no they don't. Ferals for example are in roughly the same boat as Assassination Rogues. They lost their flat crit bonuses and their crits generate double combo points as well, making the nerf pretty severe for them.

[Wow]

No, no they don't. Ferals for example are in roughly the same boat as Assassination Rogues. They lost their flat crit bonuses and their crits generate double combo points as well, making the nerf pretty severe for them.

Other than the fact they get a ton more crit from agi than anyone else.( before someone asks armory a feral and then armory a rogue with the same amount of agi and see what it says when you hover over agi on both.) And they only lost 4% crit (Master Shapeshifter) from their talents ( ravage crit was built into the ability) while we lost 15% and 30% and 60% to our abilities. 4% vs what we lost doesn't even compare.

[redderz1]

Edit double post

---------- Post added 2012-06-05 at 10:20 PM ----------

No, no they don't. Ferals for example are in roughly the same boat as Assassination Rogues. They lost their flat crit bonuses and their crits generate double combo points as well, making the nerf pretty severe for them.

What I mean was, rogues until the MoP nerfs had an almost guaranteed Ambush crit etc.

In MoP my fire mages Pyro into a frozen target is practically a guaranteed Crit. With Frost nova, ice ward and inferno blast I quite literally have the abolity to chain together 50k Pyroblast crits.

[Olianda]

Based on the little information we have Versatility is the strongest of the three Rogue talents. But it indeed isn't strong enough to be a level 90 talent compared to other classes. Anticipation and Shuriken Toss as is are really mediocre, worse than many of us thought.

It probably depends on the fight. I can think of quite a few in Dragon Soul where Shuriken Toss would be useful. Anticipation would be incredibly nice for people who lag a lot.

[redderz1]

It probably depends on the fight. I can think of quite a few in Dragon Soul where Shuriken Toss would be useful. Anticipation would be incredibly nice for people who lag a lot.

This is also part of the problem. Other classes get these "90 rule breakers" (or versions of them) as baseline. We get them to chose from. Whats more they are dull.

Go look at the priest or mage 90 talents. Rogues are getting severely short changed.

[Deleted]

Other than the fact they get about double the crit from agi than anyone else.( before someone asks armory a feral and then armory a rogue with the same amount of agi and see what it says when you hover over agi on both.) And they only lost 4% crit (Master Shapeshifter) from their talents ( ravage crit was built into the ability) while we lost 15% and 30% and 60% to our abilities. 4% vs what we lost doesn't even compare.

Ah I apologize, you are in fact correct. I was confused with an older Wrath model where they got raw crit rating from several talents as well as extra crit chance on some abilities. When I looked through the MoP talent trees I didn't see the crit increasing talents so I was assuming they had the same issue as us. Stupid assumption on my part.

Regardless, what I said still applies. Most other classes had their flat crit chances removed as well.

[Wow]

Most other classes had their flat crit chances removed as well.

Lets see shatter still there, overpower crit still there, mm hunter crit still there, Bloodthirst crit still there, ret gets 9% crit from auto attacking it use to get 15% crit on different abilities, By most other classes you must have meant just rogues.


Oh look another patch with 0 rogue change we must be perfect.

[Verain]

Go look at the priest or mage 90 talents. Rogues are getting severely short changed.

Ok, gonna call you out on the mage ones. The mage ones are just "how to get your 12% damage boost that we balanced you around", and they aren't all that creative. There's Get Punched, there's Hold Still, and there's Cast for Six Straight Seconds. I'm pretty sure that if you are a mage, these are "choose a bad mechanic".

I'll agree that our level 90 talents mostly exist to break rules that other classes don't have in the first place. I mean, shuriken throw is awesome, but a DK wouldn't be a fan, right? That being said, given our apparent design restraints, I think the only weakness is "redirect has no cooldown" (versus "combo points on the damned rogue"). The mage ones are more "what chore do you want to do in order to deeps?".

---------- Post added 2012-06-05 at 09:52 PM ----------

Oh look another patch with 0 rogue change we must be perfect.

I do suspect we'll get a better pass soon. The last ones have been numbers tweaks, telling me we are definitely into the numbers stage :/

[Deleted]

Lets see shatter still there, overpower crit still there, mm hunter crit still there, Bloodthirst crit still there...

can you pls link this?
can't find it.

[Wow]

can you pls link this?
can't find it.

http://www.wowdb.com/spells/class-abilities

[redderz1]

Ok, gonna call you out on the mage ones. The mage ones are just "how to get your 12% damage boost that we balanced you around", and they aren't all that creative. There's Get Punched, there's Hold Still, and there's Cast for Six Straight Seconds. I'm pretty sure that if you are a mage, these are "choose a bad mechanic".

I'll agree that our level 90 talents mostly exist to break rules that other classes don't have in the first place. I mean, shuriken throw is awesome, but a DK wouldn't be a fan, right? That being said, given our apparent design restraints, I think the only weakness is "redirect has no cooldown" (versus "combo points on the damned rogue"). The mage ones are more "what chore do you want to do in order to deeps?".

---------- Post added 2012-06-05 at 09:52 PM ----------



I do suspect we'll get a better pass soon. The last ones have been numbers tweaks, telling me we are definitely into the numbers stage :/

Ok mages 90 talents might not be the best example, but theyre still better than insult 90 talents rogues are being offered. My mage is looking forward to Incanters ward.

Is my rogue looking forward to two dull ways to mess around with Combo points or an updated version of throw? erm......No

[Deleted]

Lets see shatter still there, overpower crit still there, mm hunter crit still there, Bloodthirst crit still there, ret gets 9% crit from auto attacking it use to get 15% crit on different abilities, By most other classes you must have meant just rogues.


Oh look another patch with 0 rogue change we must be perfect.

There is a difference between completely passive critrating that is always there, and crit increasing passives with requirements. Shatter for example requires your target to be frozen. The crit we had on Backstab was...you know, just extra crit chance on Backstab with no requirement or us having to do anything special to enable it. Pretty much all the passive ''X ability has Y% aditional chance to crit'' is gone with a few exceptions.

[Wow]

I do suspect we'll get a better pass soon. The last ones have been numbers tweaks, telling me we are definitely into the numbers stage :/

Because they always fix us in betas right.
http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/6...ge-than-tanks/

Yep. I can tell you right now that Combat's dps is a little low. This is a known issue.

This was from cata beta said 3 months before cata went live and as we know combat wasn't buffed until 4.1...