An Actual PvE Endgame Reality Check

[Tarien]

<snip for brevity>

People go back because there are daily rewards for gear progression, or to help friends with the same objective. If there weren't any daily rewards, I might go back for a cool looking item to wardrobe/transmogrify, but certainly nowhere near as frequently as I would for progressions sake. I have no doubt that cosmetic items are one form of carrot that will entice people to repeat content, but I think that gear progression is a much bigger carrot, and without it there people will find the boredom settles in faster.

To the poster above who said that the dungeons are more like the three wings of Scarlet Monastery, if that is the case that sounds a little better though my understanding was that dungeons were sort of randomized as to which areas you saw. I could be wrong. Dynamic Events for endgame sounds great, but does not alleviate my concerns about the lifespan of endgame content in GW2. I imagine that they will not be difficult to complete and once done, where is the need to go back? Cosmetic gear? See my comments above.

I have no doubt that the game will be fun, different, looks great, plays great, has great leveling and some cool new technology for MMO gaming, but I am still unconvinced about endgame lifespan (sorry). SWTOR had more endgame content (imo) and got hammered for the lack of it.

[Loaf Lord]

You'll still be heading back places several times to get the gear you want. You aren't be handed a complete set for doing a dungeon. Plus different armor has different stat weights, meaning you'll be running back to each dungeon several times to get the gear that's properly designed for your playstyle. Think of the gear progression as horizontal, not vertical.

[Tarien]

The only argument I see is a Wow fan that can't comprehend a game without banging your head on an endless gear treadmill for fun.

Why must you try to sully every MMO with your obsession?
Does it offend you that GW2 is about entertainment and not trying to feel superior to others?

Actually I do not like WoW anymore, too casual What's wrong with the gear treadmill? Why do you feel it is about superiority and no the continuing growth in power of your own character? Doesn't it bother you that in an RPG game your character will never get any stronger? I'm really quite curious.

I have no problem with GW2, I am just tired of people talking like it's going to replace/usurp current MMOs, it won't (see reasons above).

[ShamanTankFTW]

The only argument I see is a Wow fan that can't comprehend a game without banging your head on an endless gear treadmill for fun.

Why must you try to sully every MMO with your obsession?
Does it offend you that GW2 is about entertainment and not trying to feel superior to others?

There is no need to insult Mif; try to act a bit more mature when you respond to a different opinion other than your own.

And honestly, the whole "entertainment" argument is getting old. Everyone plays games because they are entertained by them unless they HAVE to play them because of a job. Just because he has diferent entertainment values and styles that are either not similar or completely different than yours does not mean you have a valid argument to atempt to make him sound like he is trying to ream on other peoples'.

He is only trying to point out his own opinion and understand the hype that this game's player-base has created for it. Not to mention we get a good discussion out of it.

[Tarien]

You're not really getting more powerful in any other mmo either tbh. Sure your numbers go higher, but the content adjusts to your statistiscs so it's not like you gain the power of domination... except for over the lower level areas, but if you're so powerful what's the point of going to those areas? And even though I may be a level 9999 mage of badassery who bitch slapped kil jaeden back to the nether and make illidan soup within the same hour, I'll still be ordered to save critters from burning trees come next expansion.

All progression is an illusion really, and many other aspects of MMOs are (like earning more gold, but stuff gets more expensive). Developers seek to create the feeling of progression, and players tend to want to feel that feeling. If you aren't progressing then you're as good as you will ever be, time to put it down and move onto new challenges. At least that's what my brain would be telling me.

[Malthurius]

You do content to do content and to have fun. If you get bored of the content you do something else in game or quit for a while until something new comes out since there isn't a sub fee to bar your entry or deterrent people from coming back.

Yes, GW2 is a very casual game, but it's wise to keep in mind that casual =/= easy or boring.

Besides, there is ALOT of PvE content to preoccupy players, I doubt many will be leaving the game before new content is put out.

[Loaf Lord]

Actually I do not like WoW anymore, too casual What's wrong with the gear treadmill? Why do you feel it is about superiority and no the continuing growth in power of your own character? Doesn't it bother you that in an RPG game your character will never get any stronger? I'm really quite curious.

I have no problem with GW2, I am just tired of people talking like it's going to replace/usurp current MMOs, it won't (see reasons above).

I prefer the "strength" in my character to come from my own increase in skill rather than a number getting higher to attack a monster with an even higher number.

---------- Post added 2012-06-09 at 04:06 AM ----------

All progression is an illusion really, and many other aspects of MMOs are (like earning more gold, but stuff gets more expensive). Developers seek to create the feeling of progression, and players tend to want to feel that feeling. If you aren't progressing then you're as good as you will ever be, time to put it down and move onto new challenges. At least that's what my brain would be telling me.

Why isn't successfully killing the encounter with your friends enough progression?

[Tarien]

You do content to do content and to have fun. If you get bored of the content you do something else in game or quit for a while until something new comes out since there isn't a sub fee to bar your entry or deterrent people from coming back.

Yes, GW2 is a very casual game, but it's wise to keep in mind that casual =/= easy or boring.

You have two dungeons before you. One is very easy, you can complete it with one button. The other is very challenging, but at the end of the dungeon you will receive a weapon that doubles your damage. Which dungeon would you rather do?

Casual content tends to be easy content, and if something is easy then the appeal doesn't last as long. We don't appreciate things that we can take for granted, we appreciate things that are hard won. Also I threw the weapon bit in to demonstrate that people want the gear treadmill.

Besides, there is ALOT of PvE content to preoccupy players

There is? Did I miss something in my original post?

[Guilegamesh]

Actually I do not like WoW anymore, too casual What's wrong with the gear treadmill? Why do you feel it is about superiority and no the continuing growth in power of your own character? Doesn't it bother you that in an RPG game your character will never get any stronger? I'm really quite curious.

I have no problem with GW2, I am just tired of people talking like it's going to replace/usurp current MMOs, it won't (see reasons above).

The problem with the gear treadmill is it's an aritificial extension of content. You feel like you still have stuff to do because you don't have that shiny piece of gear but to get it you have to do the same encounters over and over again. Just because people spend countless hours in WoW grinding out gear for dungeons then grinding for normals then grinding for heroics does not mean there is more content in WoW. If you enjoy putting in work to have the best gear in game then more power to you, but you can't say you spend so much time because there is a lot to do.

You have two dungeons before you. One is very easy, you can complete it with one button. The other is very challenging, but at the end of the dungeon you will receive a weapon that doubles your damage. Which dungeon would you rather do?

Dungeons in GW2 are far from the casual of WoW and the like, even the story modes. Heck, random world mobs are pretty damn hard sometimes.

[Loaf Lord]

You have two dungeons before you. One is very easy, you can complete it with one button. The other is very challenging, but at the end of the dungeon you will receive a weapon that doubles your damage. Which dungeon would you rather do?

You do realize the harder content will provide the superior gear right?

[Tarien]

I prefer the "strength" in my character to come from my own increase in skill rather than a number getting higher to attack a monster with an even higher number.

Why isn't successfully killing the encounter with your friends enough progression?

If that's what you prefer, fair enough. I like the feeling of progression in my characters, it adds another facet of character development to be enjoyed.

What happens when you have cleared the encounter? Will you do it again and again? If so why?

[ShamanTankFTW]

People go back because there are daily rewards for gear progression, or to help friends with the same objective. If there weren't any daily rewards, I might go back for a cool looking item to wardrobe/transmogrify, but certainly nowhere near as frequently as I would for progressions sake. I have no doubt that cosmetic items are one form of carrot that will entice people to repeat content, but I think that gear progression is a much bigger carrot, and without it there people will find the boredom settles in faster.

To the poster above who said that the dungeons are more like the three wings of Scarlet Monastery, if that is the case that sounds a little better though my understanding was that dungeons were sort of randomized as to which areas you saw. I could be wrong. Dynamic Events for endgame sounds great, but does not alleviate my concerns about the lifespan of endgame content in GW2. I imagine that they will not be difficult to complete and once done, where is the need to go back? Cosmetic gear? See my comments above.

I have no doubt that the game will be fun, different, looks great, plays great, has great leveling and some cool new technology for MMO gaming, but I am still unconvinced about endgame lifespan (sorry). SWTOR had more endgame content (imo) and got hammered for the lack of it.

Alright, I am finding it difficult to argue my case with you, only becasue you obviously see things differently than I do. Even though I agree with you on the loot-treadmill system, I still find an aesthetic one to be just as engaging. Like someone said above me, I guess it is just easier to see it as a horizontal progression rather than a vertical one. I mean sure, I sometimes like to actually BE more powerful, but that is not always the case.

Let me run something by you, you may understand what I am trying to say or not, either way I am just bored. Say that you played Final Fantasy VI for the first time on the SNES. You had the time of your life playing that game, and you ended up playing the game plenty of times just due to nostalgia. Now, say that Square-Enix remade the game exactly the same way for the PS3. I mean everything is the same down to the last item. The only difference is the graphics. Would you play it? I say that because I see this game the same way. Everything will be/stay the same, it just looks cooler. I also feel the same way about the loot-treadmill.

[Tarien]

The problem with the gear treadmill is it's an aritificial extension of content.

So instead of an artificial extension, it is better to have no extension at all? I also don't think that it is entirely artificial, better gear does make your character stronger, that is a form of progression.

[Malthurius]

You have two dungeons before you. One is very easy, you can complete it with one button. The other is very challenging, but at the end of the dungeon you will receive a weapon that doubles your damage. Which dungeon would you rather do?

Casual content tends to be easy content, and if something is easy then the appeal doesn't last as long. We don't appreciate things that we can take for granted, we appreciate things that are hard won. Also I threw the weapon bit in to demonstrate that people want the gear treadmill.

You do understand that the easy content [normal dungeons] is a requirement in order to get to the harder ones with better rewards right? [explorable mode]. Besides, all content in the game gives relevant rewards for your level, regardless of the difficulty. The power cap is easily obtained, gear is basically for looks. You can manipulate gear to have whatever stats you want.

Besides, casual refers to the amount of time required to get anything done in the game. You don't have to poop sock to see content, but content isn't easy either.

There is? Did I miss something in my original post?

Yeah, everything from level 1-80 is viable content because of scaling. Want a challenge? Go do a level 80 zone. What something easier? Go do a lower level zone.

[Loaf Lord]

What happens when you have cleared the encounter? Will you do it again and again? If so why?

I clear the content. I do it again to obtain the gear that I didn't receive from my previous attempt until I have the gear I want from that dungeon. But oh look! The other dungeon has gear that's more suited towards a burst build I've been wanting to try. I'll go do that until I get the gear! Oh look! I like the look of the set from chickenwing cavern, I'll go farm that so I can get the actual look I want! Oh look! a dynamic event has spawned, I'll save the town from trolls so they don't overtake the village. Oh look! A new patch has already come out with more content!

[Tarien]

I still find an aesthetic one to be just as engaging.

Well that's fair enough, it's cool to have a different opinion. I just think that a majority of people will not feel the same way. Too used to generations of RPGs and MMOs where gear progression is the norm.

The only difference is the graphics. Would you play it?

If FF7 got remade sure, but it's different to replay a 100hr classic than it is to repeat the same dungeons over and over. I would not play FF7 every day/week, aside from the fact that eventually I would get bored with the game and I never want to feel bored with FF7, it would be monotonous no matter how epic the story. Eventually any task gets boring if repeated enough. Except maybe sex

[Guilegamesh]

So instead of an artificial extension, it is better to have no extension at all? I also don't think that it is entirely artificial, better gear does make your character stronger, that is a form of progression.

Yes, definitely. You have to realize the treadmill was not made to entertain players, but to keep them playing, the longer you play the longer you pay. GW2 doesn't have a monthly fee so there is no reason to have mechanics that force players to invest tons of time. Hence exp boosts, instant waypoints, and no gear treadmill at max level.

[Tarien]

You do understand that the easy content [normal dungeons] is a requirement in order to get to the harder ones with better rewards right? [explorable mode]. Besides, all content in the game gives relevant rewards for your level, regardless of the difficulty. The power cap is easily obtained, gear is basically for looks. You can manipulate gear to have whatever stats you want.

All of WoW/RIFT/SWTORs dungeons scale to max level with heroic modes, doesn't make me feel like they are enough to constitute sufficient endgame content

Yeah, everything from level 1-80 is viable content because of scaling. Want a challenge? Go do a level 80 zone. What something easier? Go do a lower level zone.

Addressed this in the OP.

[ShamanTankFTW]

Well that's fair enough, it's cool to have a different opinion. I just think that a majority of people will not feel the same way. Too used to generations of RPGs and MMOs where gear progression is the norm.



If FF7 got remade sure, but it's different to replay a 100hr classic than it is to repeat the same dungeons over and over. I would not play FF7 every day/week, aside from the fact that eventually I would get bored with the game and I never want to feel bored with FF7, it would be monotonous no matter how epic the story. Eventually any task gets boring if repeated enough. Except maybe sex

Touche' good sir.

Now I just need to clarify something after reading all the posts again. Are you just concerned that there will not be ENOUGH end-game content or just the lack of a sense of accomplishment through progression to keep people playing it?

[Loaf Lord]

So this basically boils down to opinions and you thinking your opinion is the opinion of the majority, even though games such as TF2 and LoL have proven that a vertical progression system isn't necessary for long lasting enjoyment.