Is the average Alliance players worse than the averge Horde player in normal BG's?

[Yvaelle]

It really is. Why isn't it better? Give me an example

As a non human caster - you can either equip:

403 PvP Trinket with 484 resilience on it + trinket effect
Cunning/Vial/Bone-link with damage stats + proc

Result: 484 resilience, trinket effect, ~500 damage stats, proc damage

Or as a non-human you can equip:
PvP Trinket (above)
PvP On-Use damage buff (no one uses the proc damage one)

Result: ~960 resilience, trinket effect, 2 minute on use damage buff



As a human, you can either equip:
PvP On-Use Damage Buff Trinket - 484 Resilience + 2 minute cooldown
PvP Random damage proc trinket - 484 Resilience + random proc stats you can't rely on for shit

Result: ~960 resilience, trinket effect, 2 minute on use, a secondary proc that has an almost negligible benefit

Or as a human you can equip:
PvP On-Use Damage Buff trinket (above)
Cunning/Vial/Bone-Link

Result: 484 resilience, ~500 primary stat, trinket effect, 2 minute on use damage buff, damage proc


As Undead, you use the same trinkets as non-humans, but can additionally break one 8 second fear or mind control every 2 minutes. Which means you enter fear DR in half the time, which is nothing short of Colossal when you consider that the most common comps over 2200 this season are (as with pretty much all late expansion seasons):
1. RMP - 12% of comps - P bring fear and mind control, these do not affect you
2. RLS - 8% of comps - R bring fear, this does not affect you
4. Shadowplay - 5% of comps - this comp is entirely dependent on fear DRs, their only other spammable CC is mind control, which you are also only half affected by
5. Rsham / Aff lock / Boomkin - 3.5% of comps - extremely dependent on fears
6. Disc / Ret / Unholy - 2.5% of comps - only spammable CC is mind control, ret and dk bring almost no peels and play highly offensive, heavily dependent on priests use of fear and mind control, which hardly affect you
8. MLS - 1.7% of comps - since the mages job revolves around peeling and snaring the melee off the lock and shaman - and setting up all the burst/kills (lock is purely cc and pressure), fear is the primary spammable CC here not Polymorph, which again - as undead - has a fractional impact on you that it does on everyone else because you ignore the full duration fear Every time
9. Disc / MM Hunter / Feral - 1.45% of comps - like knightcleave relies heavily on the priest tanking melee off by their lonesome while the feral and hunter go offensive (albeit the priest gets more peels here than there) - still heavily reliant on good use of fears and mind controls to protect themselves from getting wrecked

So only looking at the top 10 most common comps above 2200 this season, 7 of them rely to greater or less extent on fear and mind control to win games. Undead get to bring two pvp trinkets into arenas over 50% of the fights they face without the penalty of actually having to give up their Cunning/Vial/Bone-Link or their 500 resil/on-use trinket by physically equipping two pvp trinkets.

The ability to have another pvp trinket, is worth a hell of a lot more than the ability to have the 2 minute on-use effect (since the resilience from pvp trinket to on-use trinket cancels out, and you have your choice of secondary trinket regardless as human). What's better, 2k spellpower every 2 minutes for 20 seconds, or two trinket effects?

Will of the Forsaken is easily the strongest racial in the game.

[Queen of Hamsters]

To horde players having a need to e-peen themselves, it's true.
To Alliance players having a need to e-peen themselves, it's not true.

To players lacking the need to e-peen at all, it's not true simply because there are no statistics on this matter, not to mention that very few players only play one side in their entire wow life.

I play both sides, it's very even from my experience. And why shouldn't it be? It's a silly notion that Alliance players would be worse at PVP by default.

---------- Post added 2012-06-25 at 01:14 PM ----------

Alliance used to be for the "kids". The good guys/pretty races faction that attracts teenagers. Not anymore. I can't say that now.


.

That's funny, ever since I started I've only been hearing that Horde is for the teenager boys wanting to play the bad guys, badass guys, the monsters, the undead, the cool guys. And I still do. Obviously neither is true, people will play what they prefer and that's regardless of gender or age.

[Arthur-the-exalted]

During the course of Cataclysm I have been on Anachronos (EU, Horde), Kazzak (EU, Horde), Twilight's Hammer (EU, Alliance) and Sylvanas (EU, Alliance). I really enjoy BG's but I've noticed that the average Alliance players are definitely not as good as the Horde players. I'm currently Alliance and being in a Alliance group can be good as I have to play better to survive and attempt to carry the team to victory. So being forced to play better is always an improvment and I love that, but is this really the case for everyone playing on an Alliance character?

Please, I don't want any Alliance vs Horde fight here, it's just a discussion, keep it friendly.

I play alliance and I bg alone alot and I have noticed, at-least on my server (Akama) horde do seem to win a bit more, but its not a huge difference. I know in many games horde does work together better, as someone mentioned earlier, alliance has a lot of "PVP Hero's!"..I saw a comic strip a while back about alliance pvp, it had every one in the flag room before wsg started setting up a plan, and as soon as the game starts, every one runs off in different directions...thats almost exactly what happens lol, I love pvp, but rated is the way to go, its more balanced for a better fight with good players.

[Yvaelle]

To players lacking the need to e-peen at all, it's not true simply because there are no statistics on this matter, not to mention that very few players only play one side in their entire wow life.

A few months back Blizzard themselves posted something like 7 years worth of data when complaints about BG balance were made and the overall data was like A 49%, H 51% - some of the BGs were entirely balanced (WSG, EotS) while AV leaned Alliance (more defensible alliance bridge versus horde base with multiple methods of entry), and AB leaned Horde (significantly faster rout to BS, slightly faster rout to mines).

So there is a Mountain of data on this subject, from the best possible source - and the answer is - it's pretty damned even overall. But people don't understand what a distribution is because statistics apparently isn't taught nowadays? (sigh) Some players are Not stroking their e-peen to say they have a 75%+ win ratio - they do - they just exist near the top of the distribution (and I made a huge post explaining correlations to skill and gear and teamwork that might explain that). Some people are not lying when they say they lose Every game they play on X faction - they do - they just exist near the bottom of the distribution.

Summary: There is a ton of data. Overall, the factions are very evenly matched. There is NO general tendency toward superior skill or teamwork or gear on either faction. That does not mean there is not a Massive discrepancy in the individual skill/teamwork/gear of individual players, and the often like-minded people they choose to play with.

[Dietrik]

My main pvp toon is alliance, a gnome rogue, I have 56% win on random battlegrounds. Previously i played a lot on an alliance feral i have 37% on that (lower than i thought), my other alliance feral is 57%. My first became our MT for raids so I dropped pvp and leveled a second.

You remember losses a lot more than wins, but the win rate seems to be more affected by season than faction in my case.

This season seems pretty balanced in my experience. My only observation is horde toons seem to group up better than alliance, and healers seems to be better placed on capture the flag games. The latter may just be because i see them more because i am in their flag room more than ours.

[rektbrah]

-snip

where you're wrong however is that the buff is not 'negligible'. my rogue partner does more burst with his pre legendary daggers and being human than he does WITH legendary daggers (on his horde toon). As a human I do more damage when I can use my spell power trinket + foul gift. that damage is incredible and not 'negligible'.

Also, another trinket is pretty meaningless now that every healer has a dispel. With my priest dispelling I'm never in a fear for more than 2 seconds.

The meta game has evolved. It's no longer about CC and it's about who can do the most damage in a shorter period of time. RLS doesn't have that much CC, the kills most of the time are honestly through sheer pressure. RMP/Vanguards with burst etc.

The ability to have another pvp trinket, is worth a hell of a lot more than the ability to have the 2 minute on-use effect (since the resilience from pvp trinket to on-use trinket cancels out, and you have your choice of secondary trinket regardless as human). What's better, 2k spellpower every 2 minutes for 20 seconds, or two trinket effects?

You're forgetting there's a 45 second cooldown on the other trinket as well. Sure, it puts fear on DR then they're still susceptible to other CC. If there wasn't a cooldown on other trinkets then it would be the best in the game. Also you can only use it once every 2 minutes. In that 2 minutes DR would've reset 8 times or 6 times (I forget if DR timers are 15 or 20 seconds). Awesome, you're effectively immune from fear for about 10 more seconds than everyone else. When you put that into perspective it's not a massive advantage. (It was when a) CC was 10 seconds and b) didnt share a CD with PvP trinket)

Also, 2k spell power coupled with a Foul Gift proc is ridiculous damage for a frost mage. 2k AP coupled with Vial procs and a Sdance is ridiculous damage. Timing your burst is better than getting out of CC which you shouldn't be in to begin with.

[Deleted]

The PKM post was laughable.

It used to be that Horde attracted older players and in general better pvpers because they could play as a team. Through the years I am not convinced one side is any better than another, there seem to be a greater amount of retards than ever before. You know the ones who just arent interested in getting the flag, falling back to yellow or defending a base. I am also amazed at how many bots there are.

In terms of BG I think the standard is poorer than it was.

One of the nice things about vanilla was that bgs were against the opposing faction on your server. This meant you got to know the Alliance players, the teams and how they played. It was more fun and added to the Horde v Alliance myth. Now its a bit meaningless.

I understand why the Battlegroups were formed and the problems for the Alliance, but it was much more fun for the Horde before.

[Deleted]

They are both the same.

In classic/TBC, there could be a difference, but right now the faction barrier is a lot more lenient and people can easily switch back and forth.

[Dellis0991]

I'm for the alliance and every time I had I do a BG I do pretty outstanding I lose a bg every one in a blue moon

[Deleted]

No. I do get into spots where I get pissed at horde having 0 healers and alliance having 3-5 healers. When I faction change, I get pissed at alliance having 0 healers and horde having 3-5 healers.

[Yvaelle]

where you're wrong however is that the buff is not 'negligible'. my rogue partner does more burst with his pre legendary daggers and being human than he does WITH legendary daggers (on his horde toon). As a human I do more damage when I can use my spell power trinket + foul gift. that damage is incredible and not 'negligible'.

Then your rogue is terrible? Legendary daggers are a colossal leap from the pre-legendaries in terms of damage, you can put out like 150-200k damage during wings with eviscerate spam, you can't do that with pre-legendary daggers - and that entirely ignores the massive stat differences that alone are more valuable than the pvp random proc trinket.

Also, another trinket is pretty meaningless now that every healer has a dispel. With my priest dispelling I'm never in a fear for more than 2 seconds.

The meta game has evolved. It's no longer about CC and it's about who can do the most damage in a shorter period of time. RLS doesn't have that much CC, the kills most of the time are honestly through sheer pressure. RMP/Vanguards with burst etc.

Link me your stream and I'll count how many CC your team eats that last more than 2 seconds, burst might be high this season - but CC is still king ;p

You're forgetting there's a 45 second cooldown on the other trinket as well. Sure, it puts fear on DR then they're still susceptible to other CC. If there wasn't a cooldown on other trinkets then it would be the best in the game. Also you can only use it once every 2 minutes. In that 2 minutes DR would've reset 8 times or 6 times (I forget if DR timers are 15 or 20 seconds). Awesome, you're effectively immune from fear for about 10 more seconds than everyone else. When you put that into perspective it's not a massive advantage. (It was when a) CC was 10 seconds and b) didnt share a CD with PvP trinket)

I'm not forgetting that at all (I think I even mentioned it), and you don't need to be able to use these trinkets back to back to make it stronger - Undead have 2 trinkets on 2 minute cooldowns while everyone else has one - just because they can't spam trinket effects at the start of a match doesn't mean it's shit. It's closer to being a buff that prevents you from fat fingering them and using them too close together ;p Being immune to an additional 8 seconds of CC every 2 minutes is HUGE - how much damage do you do in 8 seconds of punching? The answer is way more than you do with the on-use trinket.

Also, 2k spell power coupled with a Foul Gift proc is ridiculous damage for a frost mage. 2k AP coupled with Vial procs and a Sdance is ridiculous damage. Timing your burst is better than getting out of CC which you shouldn't be in to begin with.

I don't understand this "you shouldn't be in (CC) to begin with" mentality you have, please link me your stream where your team never gets CC'd. You know what the counter to timed burst is right? When you hear shadowdance? CC. They press Shadowdance, I press Psy Scream, the undeads press Will - I eat a full Shadowdance. Versus humans, they press Shadowdance, I press Fear - how much damage did your on-use trinket do when you coordinated it to running away for 8 seconds + time I kite you around a box? ;p

[Peacemoon]

I don't think there is a big difference personally in ability. However I would say different people are attracted to different teams and in my experience Horde tend to have more melee and Alliance have more healers. This makes certain BGs harder then others when I'm the only healer horde side and Alliance have 2-3.

[Caduceus]

It differs from battlegroup to battlegroup. I know for a fact that in Reckoning / Abrechnung alliance is very much > horde (about 60-65/35-40 win/loss on all chars, even when I just mess around in PvE gear or even afk. This is a pretty huge win/loss ratio). There are also way more honorbuddy on horde side, especially nighttime, which in most bgs are win, others loss (they randomly stick together like glue in WSG/TP, and in some cases bots have an easier time killing me than the average skilled horde player because of perfect interrupts and the perfect dps rotations).

PvPers often mig to realms because of the battlegroup it is in. Naturally we have some "hey this battlegroup is awesome for alli!" groups and some for horde. I assume more "good" players find out about what battlegroups are good than the amount of "bad" players do, as well.

Agree with previous post, though. You can easilly make the difference in at least every fifth BG, if not more. Doesn't matter the size of the BG either, as you can call out for help and tell others what to do, and a few will listen (bigger bg = more people = chances are more will listen). A good (bad) example is someone capping IB GY on alliance side (or SH GY if you're horde), a rogue/druid taking out the alliance glaives solo in IoC, ninja capping anything in any base game, calling out some people and bringing them along for a EFC kill in the other team's base instead of slacking around farming HKs in the midle like a dork.

[rektbrah]

my rogue's not terrible. Both of us are consistent 2500 players (this season we dont play srsly). He was exaggerating, but he honestly did not want me to transfer to horde to play with his legendary rogue because human is better. Which it is.

Honestly I rarely get CC'd. a) I'm the kill target 80% of the time and b) CC is incredibly avoidable. When you get to high ratings it's easy to know when a priest is running towards you to fear and just as easy to kite him away from fear range. Yes, some CC is unavoidable, but as a mage it's 4 seconds anyway coz of mage armour.

I live in Australia so whenever I stream I lag like fuck (sup internet) but I would gladly show you how we play. When we played with our good priest who quit we rarely got CC'd. Now we just pug rando priests l0l

Also your analogy of the whole sdance thing is wrong. It irritates me when people try and do a step by step of arena. My rogue partner will know your fears on CD so he might cloak, or he might kidney you before dance or he gets feared, instantly dispelled and you're in a CoC snare/root. Or fear ward. Too many possibilities.

Finally, this is the irrefutable point: if Undead is so great, why is 90% of the top 50 ladders human? Why do all the top players go human if Undead is the best? It's because the way the meta game is designed. Burst damage is more important than time on the target.

Anyway we're never gonna come to an agreement. I'd rather trust the better players than me.

[Drakoes]

It's the luck of the draw, and definitely, as some people have already put it, whether you're lucky or not. The time of the day that you play in will also be a factor to an extent.

As a hordie who has played almost 3000 BGs, I've been on countless winning streaks, and then there's losing streaks. Don't forget about carrying your team and that if you're able to do that with incredible damage or burst, then that will help as well. If you're speaking in a healer's perspective, then you're healing 'crap' if everyone else barely does any pressure or goes for the objectives.

[woopytywoop]

there is no real difference.

Except alliance has a lot more whiners who say "alli sucks etc" before it even began.
Most of them have terrible W/L ratio and have crap gear, backpeddle etc.
I always advise them to reroll horde, I mean, if they got such perception, why not.
I know the only thing that was in common when they got the idea, was themselves.

But in general, whoever has the best gear wins. Geared healers can also make the difference, but if the dps sucks, they'll loose aswell.

[Bluesftw]

all depends what bots they are using ^^ every time i join random bg its mostly bot-wars with handfull of ppl shouting at them on bg channel^^

[Yvaelle]

Finally, this is the irrefutable point: if Undead is so great, why is 90% of the top 50 ladders human? Why do all the top players go human if Undead is the best? It's because the way the meta game is designed. Burst damage is more important than time on the target.

It's about 40% human and 40% undead - certainly nothing close to 90%.

Source: http://www.worldofwargraphs.com/stat...0---0-0-0.html

Highest rated team in the world is triple undead RMP. Third highest rated team in the world is also triple undead RMP. Fifth highest team in the world is double undead RLS (only because you can't make undead shamans). Seventh highest team in the world is double undead RLS (same as last). Eighth highest team in the world is double undead RLS (again, shamans cant be undead). Tenth highest team in the world is Disc/Hunter/Ret, using an undead disc because they can't fit any more undead into that comp.

So given I only looked at the top ten comps in the world, undead are a monstrously disproportionate percentage - and of those teams that are undead - it's usually as many undead as you can possibly jam into the comp. In fact, all horde teams playing classes which can be undead are undead, I think that really says it all.

Source: http://www.worldofwargraphs.com/stat...0-0-0---0.html

Conclusion: If you still think EMfHS is better than WotF, you're entitled to your opinion - but your opinion is in direct opposition to all the evidence.