[Megathread] Path of Exile

[Redblade]

I think the new bosses are just there as a challenge or for the "scare" factor. There doesn't have to be any real incentive to kill them- they just are.

Hence, challenge leagues.

Sure they are there as a challenge but when the rewards are so low that the challenge becomes how to avoid killing as many of them as possible the concept kinda fails.

Comparing the new leagues one is "One-shot league" while the other is "Lootsplosion league" where both are challenge leagues the argument kinda fails.

[Fencers]

Sure they are there as a challenge but when the rewards are so low that the challenge becomes how to avoid killing as many of them as possible the concept kinda fails.

Comparing the new leagues one is "One-shot league" while the other is "Lootsplosion league" where both are challenge leagues the argument kinda fails.

Are not the challenges tied to achievements though? The challenge leagues and their associated challenges may not always be a direct measure of difficulty vs. reward.

Whether or not a player wants to do the challenges is up to them. There doesn't need to be a reward for anything per se other than the completion of those challenges.

[Redblade]

Are not the challenges tied to achievements though? The challenge leagues and their associated challenges may not always be a direct measure of difficulty vs. reward.

They are but as far as the challenge for Invasion goes it pretty much only to get to 90 in that league which means survive 90 levels by avoiding to kill as many invasion bosses as possible. You also need to kill the invasion bosses but no difficulty requirement and not all 60 odd hence you can go back and do them in lower level zones. The rest can be done in Ambush where you can, without any real issue, play self found due to the strongboxes.

Whether or not a player wants to do the challenges is up to them. There doesn't need to be a reward for anything per se other than the completion of those challenges.

True but as there is no incentive to kill the bosses that appear in every zone but instead a pretty big incentive to avoid them the purpose is a bit confusing. Basically if you're just playing to complete the challenges your best choice, as always, is to play the softcore league and cheese the hardcore once. If you're just playing to play a challenging league again there is no incentive to kill them as the loot is abysmal hence the challenge lies in avoiding them.

[nbm02ss]

I'm doing a crit dagger Spectral Throw Scion in Invasion. Eventually I'll replace LMP with GMP, and I'm thinking about doing cast on crit EK with ST (essentially my char will be a shotgun), but not sure yet.

[Fencers]

They are but as far as the challenge for Invasion goes it pretty much only to get to 90 in that league which means survive 90 levels by avoiding to kill as many invasion bosses as possible.

That's kinda player choice though. I understand that it is the nature of players to take the path of least resistance, but that is ultimately a personal choice.

The challenge leagues are appropriately named and structured. How one wants to play around that is fairly open.

... the purpose is a bit confusing.

The subjective qualifier of fun. I don't see any confusion or conflict in design. Only player desire/expectation.

[Thotor]

I clearly agree with your point of view Fencers and it seems that it was the goal of GGG. The scare factor is really there. When you enter a zone, you need to be cautious as anything can happen.

[Redblade]

The challenge leagues are appropriately named and structured. How one wants to play around that is fairly open.

And where would the challenge be in Ambush in comparison?

The subjective qualifier of fun. I don't see any confusion or conflict in design. Only player desire/expectation.

I highly doubt anyone finds the risk of being one-shot from off screen "fun". That's not to say the concept is bad but the implementation is lacking so far when almost any other activity in game offers far greater rewards for much less risk. But hey when you find some people who actively goes around killing each and every invasion boss just because they think it's fun despite the lack of rewards then I'll accept your argument.

The challenge leagues so far suffer from one major flaw imo. The hardcore league is not only harder, which it should be, but also far worse off as far as gear and currency progression goes. They could have fixed it and at the same time solved the risk vs reward issue with the invasion bosses by adding a guarantied rare or two from them (and map drop from the map once) when killed in the open world or maps.

[nbm02ss]

As it is right now I find myself running by most Invasion bosses when I can. This isn't necessarily for fear of being one shot, more than I just don't think they're worth the time spent to kill.

[Fencers]

And where would the challenge be in Ambush in comparison?

The strongboxes can spawn with various affixes, corrupted areas and achievement challenges.

I highly doubt anyone finds the risk of being one-shot from off screen "fun".

I do. I find the presence of the Invasion bosses to be effectively "scary". Adding to the atmosphere of danger within the context of losing a character from the meta competition and in my time investment.

But hey when you find some people who actively goes around killing each and every invasion boss just because they think it's fun despite the lack of rewards then I'll accept your argument.

I do. I try to take on as many as I can. If I can't handle the bosses, I back out or try to lure them away if there is a nasty pack nearby. Just for the personal challenge of it.

It's just like Kunduku. He exists in practically all versions of The Ledge. It is often not advantageous to kill Kunduku or even efficient farming. Many players run past the boss rather than risk a death at low levels or at higher levels to clear more effectively.

Having Kunduku there present players with an option (which they can skip) of taking on the boss for it's own sake. Maybe you get a nice drop. Maybe not. But certainly the value of Kunduku as a presence that can provide a fun &/or challenging encounter for the sake of it alone is worthwhile.

I always try to kill Kunduku. Sometime I can't. Sometime I rip at level 5.

But find it fun to "kill" the boss or at least make the attempt all the same. The reward is the experience play.

[Redblade]

The strongboxes can spawn with various affixes, corrupted areas and achievement challenges.

In comparison they are much easier to deal with in Ambush though, and the box affixes can be re-rolled, Invasion bosses can't.

I do. I find the presence of the Invasion bosses to be effectively "scary". Adding to the atmosphere of danger within the context of losing a character from the meta competition and in my time investment.

I get the scary part with the bosses that can't one-shot you from off screen without you ever seeing them. I don't disagree with that. But can you honestly say you find it fun knowing you can die at any time without ever having any control or means to avoid it?

I do. I try to take as many on as I can. If I can't handle it, I back out or try to lure them away if there is a nasty pack nearby. Just for the personal challenge of it.

Then you're more masochistic than anyone one I know but fair enough, a very small part of the player base enjoys killing them for the hell of it. Doubt it's a big enough part to warrant the low reward as a design though.

It's just like Kunduku. He exists in practically all versions of The Ledge. It is often not advantageous to kill Kunduku or even efficient. Many players run past the boss rather than risk a death at low levels or at higher levels to clear more effectively.

Having Kunduku there present players with an option (which they can skip) of taking on the boss for it's own sake. Maybe you get a nice drop. Maybe not. But certainly the value of Kunduku as a presence that can provide a fun &/or challenging encounter for the sake of it alone is worthwhile.

I always try to kill Kunduku. Sometime I can't. Sometime I rip at level 5.

But find it fun to "kill" the boss or at least make the attempt all the same.

There is a huge difference in Kuduku and the Invasion bosses, again there are a fair few Invasion bosses that can kill you without you ever laying eyes on them hence the option to skip as you suggest isn't always there.

Now if the bosses them selfs where more balanced where you always had the option to skip them then I wouldn't care either way as far as the rewards go although I'd still question how good of an addition to the game they are when a majority skips them because they are not rewarding to kill beyond the "fun" factor. Like I said above GGG needs to balance rewards between the leagues better to present the players with a more balanced choice of where to do the challenges based on what league the prefer and not what's by far the more efficient choice.

[Fencers]

In comparison they are much easier to deal with in Ambush though, and the box affixes can be re-rolled, Invasion bosses can't.

Is it not acceptable one league is more dangerous than the other?

Both temp leagues are more challenging than default and have challenges (as GGG define them) not present in default leagues. Players are free to chose of the four.

I don't disagree with that. But can you honestly say you find it fun knowing you can die at any time without ever having any control or means to avoid it?

Yes, I do find it fun.

Don't think I am saying I do not get frustrated by such deaths. I freely yell "BULLCRAP!" when taken out by a so-called "cheap shot" and many times I have posted in this thread here my recent deaths. Sometimes out of frustration, sometimes out of amusement.

Ultimately that possibly of death and presence of danger keeps me in the HC leagues of Path of Exile. Whereas I am less likely to play HC in other ARPGs.

Then you're more masochistic than anyone one I know but fair enough, a very small part of the player base enjoys killing them for the hell of it. Doubt it's a big enough part to warrant the low reward as a design though.

I think the design is meant to reward play as challenge. Not as wealth accumlation necesaily. Perhaps GGG do/did intend for the Invasion bosses to be wealth accumulation devices. We don't know.

However, based on the design of the game as it is now I would say they don't give a flip about that too much. Many of the monsters in the game (e.x. yellows & unique mobs) have yielded no items of significant value for me. Many such mobs have killed me- I was free to avoid them in most cases as well!

Its always (I don't mean being l75 and killing l1 zombers, of course) a risk fighting something in the game. A lot of times the rewards are pretty shitty too.

Like I said above GGG needs to balance rewards between the leagues better to present the players with a more balanced choice of where to do the challenges based on what league the prefer and not what's by far the more efficient choice.

A fair point. I just don't think a game has to do or reward anything other than the play experience itself. Games only exists for the latter.

[Clrg]

http://www.twitch.tv/colbycheeze/c/3867563

that macro.

[Poppincaps]

Honestly, I try to fight every Invasion boss I come across. Of course I'm not an idiot and if the fight seems to be going south I'll run away. To be quite honest though if you skip all of the Invasion bosses then why do you play Invasion? Seems pointless to me.

[Mamut]

I love HC league, never started any standard character. All my standard characters are from HC Rips that I did not delete. I loved Nemesis. I was very happy when Invasion was announced. Really cool concept. Then I started playing...

I was dying in normal alot but trying the invasion bosses at first was fun. Then I leveled up with next characters but 3x I die from bosses that I did not even see on my screen (basically oneshoots from offscreen). Thats not fun at all. High level people farming low level maps because they are afraid of being oneshooted (they can be oneshooted in low level maps, how they are suppose to survive higher level maps?).

I saw on streams tanky people dying in 1 sec before they were able logout. I dont think this should look like this, make bosses only to avoid them? Really? I gave up and move to ambush atleast till they fix some things because this looks just broken to me.

[Morae]

I have yet to even try hardcore stuff. How do you even play it? Even on non hardcore I randomly get nearly killed or killed just because of desync or otherwise bad luck. I really do hate it when I see myself getting surrounded by a large amount of enemies and then quickly decide to run only to find that I never moved anywhere when I suddenly teleport back right there in middle of monsters with 5% hp left :/ . I do not understand how people can even consider playing hardcore when stuff like that isnt just possible, but very common.

[loki504]

I have yet to even try hardcore stuff. How do you even play it? Even on non hardcore I randomly get nearly killed or killed just because of desync or otherwise bad luck. I really do hate it when I see myself getting surrounded by a large amount of enemies and then quickly decide to run only to find that I never moved anywhere when I suddenly teleport back right there in middle of monsters with 5% hp left :/ . I do not understand how people can even consider playing hardcore when stuff like that isnt just possible, but very common.

well hc in poe isn't really hardcore. if you die your char is turned to sc mode. its not dead forever. so not really hardcore

[Deleted]

I have yet to even try hardcore stuff. How do you even play it? Even on non hardcore I randomly get nearly killed or killed just because of desync or otherwise bad luck. I really do hate it when I see myself getting surrounded by a large amount of enemies and then quickly decide to run only to find that I never moved anywhere when I suddenly teleport back right there in middle of monsters with 5% hp left :/ . I do not understand how people can even consider playing hardcore when stuff like that isnt just possible, but very common.

Yeah, nemesis mods were awesome and very manageable (i.e. always take lightning resist and bleeding flasks etc.). The current HC league seems a bit crazy ^^

[nbm02ss]

well hc in poe isn't really hardcore. if you die your char is turned to sc mode. its not dead forever. so not really hardcore

It is if you never intend to play in softcore. If I die on a HC char I try to give away all my loot (if it's even got anything worth giving away), then I delete it.

[Redblade]

Is it not acceptable one league is more dangerous than the other?

Of course it is, I asked where the challenge was compared though, not if there was something that could be applied to the term challenge.

Both temp leagues are more challenging than default and have challenges (as GGG define them) not present in default leagues. Players are free to chose of the four.

I disagree that Ambush is more challenging than standard...loot progression is faster, map generation is faster, currency generation is faster, more monsters through the strongboxes hence more loot and XP.

Yes, I do find it fun.

Then our definition of fun is very different. And I do love the risks normally involved with playing HC and challenging content in general, just not uncontrollable death is it's neither challenging nor fun.

I think the design is meant to reward play as challenge. Not as wealth accumlation necesaily. Perhaps GGG do/did intend for the Invasion bosses to be wealth accumulation devices. We don't know.

However, based on the design of the game as it is now I would say they don't give a flip about that too much. Many of the monsters in the game (e.x. yellows & unique mobs) have yielded no items of significant value for me. Many such mobs have killed me- I was free to avoid them in most cases as well!

Its always (I don't mean being l75 and killing l1 zombers, of course) a risk fighting something in the game. A lot of times the rewards are pretty shitty too.

You didn't play Ambush I guess? It's quite insane in comparison, it's loot pinata mode...

A fair point. I just don't think a game has to do or reward anything other than the play experience itself. Games only exists for the latter.

But the loot generation is a major part of the play experience, especially at end game. Without loot generation, or reward if you will, the whole genre would have died years ago. So it does have to have a reward relative to the effort/time time the player puts in as well as relative to the risk the player takes with he's character. Without it very few would play it for any amount of time after completing the three difficulties, hell most would probably quit after beating normal.

[Deleted]

I agree that Invasion is just fun due to the danger and unpredictability. So it's less loot/hour, is that really all we play things for?

Actually, it is what a lot of people play it for exactly. The carrot and the stick kind of thing. In Diablo3 the same, this run gives 10000g/minute, while another one gives 10001g/minute, so the latter is the one that is done, even though it might be waaaaaaaaaay less fun than the former.

I personally don't, but if you read the forums of the respective games, you quickly realize that there are many people that play the game for exactly the reason you mentioned.