10% haste added to Seal of Insight

[timeconsumer26]

correct me if i'm wrong, but dont we still gen HP from crusader strike? CS + HS on CD is quite a quick way to gen some easy HP during intense healing, sadly at the cost of a GCD wasted on an offensive attack, but its a drastic improvement from simply waiting on HS CD. I have not logged on the beta in a week or two though, so this may have changed since i last played around with it.

[Deleted]

correct me if i'm wrong, but dont we still gen HP from crusader strike? CS + HS on CD is quite a quick way to gen some easy HP during intense healing, sadly at the cost of a GCD wasted on an offensive attack, but its a drastic improvement from simply waiting on HS CD. I have not logged on the beta in a week or two though, so this may have changed since i last played around with it.

During intense healing, assuming your mana can take it, using CS is not the best idea for throughput but it is very good for mana management.

[Dubalicious]

During intense healing, assuming your mana can take it, using CS is not the best idea for throughput but it is very good for mana management.

Unfortunately CS and Judging (w/ selfless healer) both fall under this issue. They're really good and beneficial until you realize they won't keep up when there is heavy incoming damage. Essentially, when you NEED them the most they are unavailable due to their nature (occupying GCD's that don't produce any actual healing)

[JonBoy2001]

10% Spell haste + the 5% healing it gives + glyph of battle healer might be OP for Ret as far as off healing goes. I noticed CS proccing the battle healer glyph as holy so it's definately worth testing.

[Deleted]

Unfortunately CS and Judging (w/ selfless healer) both fall under this issue. They're really good and beneficial until you realize they won't keep up when there is heavy incoming damage. Essentially, when you NEED them the most they are unavailable due to their nature (occupying GCD's that don't produce any actual healing)

Yes, but you wont keep judging on cooldown w/ selfless healer when its a high damage phase, would you?

[Reith]

Unfortunately CS and Judging (w/ selfless healer) both fall under this issue. They're really good and beneficial until you realize they won't keep up when there is heavy incoming damage. Essentially, when you NEED them the most they are unavailable due to their nature (occupying GCD's that don't produce any actual healing)

In lighter healing situations, wouldn't mana conservation be important to keep your mana up for the more intense healing parts? That's how I understand it should work, but maybe I'm wrong.

---------- Post added 2012-07-11 at 12:43 PM ----------

10% Spell haste + the 5% healing it gives + glyph of battle healer might be OP for Ret as far as off healing goes. I noticed CS proccing the battle healer glyph as holy so it's definately worth testing.

Kinda doubt it.. they don't intend for it to do a significant amount of healing.

[Dubalicious]

Yes, but you wont keep judging on cooldown w/ selfless healer when its a high damage phase, would you?

Yes, that's what I was trying to get at. Judging & CS are great for efficiency WHEN they can be utilized, but neither of them CAN be utilized during high damage phases (although you could get a stack of SH easy enough during any type of required movement).

In lighter healing situations, wouldn't mana conservation be important to keep your mana up for the more intense healing parts? That's how I understand it should work, but maybe I'm wrong.[COLOR="red"]

I suppose this is true, but not every encounter or instance is going to have "down time". More than likely these "down time phases" will be periods that you have deemed to be "recovery periods", but will essentially be periods of time where you do very little and your fellow healers do the brunt of the work. I personally just don't like the idea of that playstyle where you go hard for 2 minutes, then spend a minute basically "spot healing" with your cheap/free heals just so that you can go hard for 2 minutes again. Yes, it's great if the encounter lends itself to that sort of thing, but what if it doesn't? CS & SH become a non-factor and our efficiency GREATLY suffers.

[Synche]

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...7?page=79#1562

Great news but I still will miss keeping JoTP up

I actually prefer this change, back when Judgement gave you a % of base mana back it was extremely annoying to have to judge every 8 sec. It also led to balance issues as Paladins had way more mana regen then any class (provided you never missed a judgement).

On Live it is a bit better since you only have to judge every 1 min, but if it is a buff that you have to have, it might as well be made into a passive because you generally don't play without it being active anyways.

Although we lose some haste overall, I like it better

[Dubalicious]

I actually prefer this change, back when Judgement gave you a % of base mana back it was extremely annoying to have to judge every 8 sec. It also led to balance issues as Paladins had way more mana regen then any class (provided you never missed a judgement).

On Live it is a bit better since you only have to judge every 1 min, but if it is a buff that you have to have, it might as well be made into a passive because you generally don't play without it being active anyways.

Although we lose some haste overall, I like it better

I may be in the great minority but I actually enjoyed judging on cooldown. It was one of the few things that made playing a holy paladin 'different' and arguably raised the "skill cap" of the spec (granted not by a whole lot). When you did a good job judging on/near CD it actually made a significant difference in what you were capable of doing.

I definitely don't like the ideology of "if it's a required buff to maintain, just make it a passive" - there needs to be some challenge/difficulty in playing the spec beyond spell selection imo.

[Synche]

I may be in the great minority but I actually enjoyed judging on cooldown. It was one of the few things that made playing a holy paladin 'different' and arguably raised the "skill cap" of the spec (granted not by a whole lot). When you did a good job judging on/near CD it actually made a significant difference in what you were capable of doing.

I definitely don't like the ideology of "if it's a required buff to maintain, just make it a passive" - there needs to be some challenge/difficulty in playing the spec beyond spell selection imo.

I will agree in some aspects as it did make pally healing a bit different, however it was a cumbersome design (back when it was judge every 8 sec and to a lesser affect currently on live).

If the design is to have the buff never fall off then why even have to refresh it in the first place, it should just be made a passive to begin with , but thats just me.

[Ghul]

Not having to Judge is good news!

This, not so much, personally. Why do Paladins need baseline haste when every other caster had haste/crit stripped from their abilities? We're all stuck with long-as-heck casts, and need to gear haste to make them actually usable. Why are Paladins so different?

because they are fabulous!

im welcoming the changes, interested to test it!

[Dubalicious]

If the design is to have the buff never fall off then why even have to refresh it in the first place, it should just be made a passive to begin with , but thats just me.

I guess to me that's just a slippery slope. Holy Shock is supposed to be used on cooldown, so why can't it just passively heal the lowest HP person within 40 yards every 6 seconds? I believe the design intent is that if you let the buff fall of (when you're not supposed to) you are punished - which I guess is how it seems like it should work, right? Play with better mechanics, get rewarded. Have poor mechanics and you will be punished/suffer the consequences.

[Deleted]

Yes, that's what I was trying to get at. Judging & CS are great for efficiency WHEN they can be utilized, but neither of them CAN be utilized during high damage phases (although you could get a stack of SH easy enough during any type of required movement).

Yes I totally agree with this and I kinda like this, concept tbh.

[Deleted]

The way we used judgement for haste and the other talents that improved cast times on spells or gave free spells are what made me fall in love with holy paladin again this expansion.

I for one am not very happy they are changing all of this again, it will move us back to the flash/holy light spamming paladins again we were in TBC/WotLK. You may say we still do that a lot now, but those few spells did make healing as a holy paladin feel more dynamic and unique.

[Tastyfish]

everything appears to revolve around reducing holy paladin instant casts for pvp.

Thats what I was thinking in the back of my mind too.

I really wish they would just have a Pve and PVP ability change on some stuff, so they can do the best for both things. ( yea shift what skills do when you are flagged, yea ,yea, yea! )

[Dubalicious]

Yes I totally agree with this and I kinda like this, concept tbh.

I guess I don't mind the concept, I would just be worried that we would be GREAT with encounters that allow it and TERRIBLE with encounters that don't. I could see that type of thing lending itself to multiple "playstyles" for different encounters though (ie. not taking SH and dropping the AC glyph) which is actually something I would look forward to and appreciate.

[Kerfax]

After playing with it on Beta, I think that using Selfless Healer, CS, and Battle Healer are all going to make Holy Pally really damn interesting. It's not a super throughput strategy, but especially early on it's going to help with mana quite a bit. I think it's a strategy that also makes you utilize quite a few abilities that other people may ignore because they aren't strictly part of the "Holy" toolbox.

I also think this is a really interesting thing for giving us the choice to use it if we desire but not being necessary if we don't like the play style. It gives us a few different options for how we want to heal during encounters and while we may be switching talents and glyphs a lot, possibly even fight by fight, I think that makes for far more interesting gameplay than an overall "best" choice for everything.

[Grubjuice]

After playing with it on Beta, I think that using Selfless Healer, CS, and Battle Healer are all going to make Holy Pally really damn interesting. It's not a super throughput strategy, but especially early on it's going to help with mana quite a bit. I think it's a strategy that also makes you utilize quite a few abilities that other people may ignore because they aren't strictly part of the "Holy" toolbox.

I also think this is a really interesting thing for giving us the choice to use it if we desire but not being necessary if we don't like the play style. It gives us a few different options for how we want to heal during encounters and while we may be switching talents and glyphs a lot, possibly even fight by fight, I think that makes for far more interesting gameplay than an overall "best" choice for everything.

My guess is at the moment that strategy is adding up to be a super-mana efficiency model, that allows you to burn mana during short burst phases by husbanding mana using Ascetic Crusader+Selfless Healer+Battle Healer and using J, CS, and HS all on cooldown during maintenance phases.

But to be honest, i wouldn't mind if instead it was more like Mistweaver/Disc Priest dps healing rather than a suite of mana-management tools.

I also wouldn't mind a Healing Polearm, perfect to share with Monks and Druids (wink).

[Dubalicious]

I also think this is a really interesting thing for giving us the choice to use it if we desire but not being necessary if we don't like the play style. It gives us a few different options for how we want to heal during encounters and while we may be switching talents and glyphs a lot, possibly even fight by fight, I think that makes for far more interesting gameplay than an overall "best" choice for everything.

This is the part I'm not yet convinced of. From a "min/max" perspective SH is just TOO good if it's viable. So if it will work based on encounter design and healing strategy then it's a must (whether you like the playstyle or not), but I think how you put it is EXACTLY what they're aiming for (ie. if you like incorporating judging and doing some stuff in melee you can do that OR if you don't like that style you don't have to do it). Albeit this is strictly from a PvE progression viewpoint - it's not even worth disputing that these "choices" are really cool for 5 mans and other various activities in the game.

What were your findings on the Battle Healer Glyph? It seemed extremely underwhelming when I tested it a couple weeks ago, but that was far from 'extensive' testing.

[~Valen~]

No no no... I would much rather having to keep JoTP throught Judgement and have the buff displayed rather than have it permanently on my stance-like seal !