Ten Reasons PvE players will love GW2

[Willias]

If you're going to base the definition of a word based on most common usage/most popular usage, then there are going to be many things that other MMOs (and other games) will not have if they do not copy the EverQuest/WoW formula.

Endgame is simply what content/what happens at the end of a game. This definition doesn't just apply to popular MMOs, but to most video games.

Raiding in WoW is "endgame content" because the content takes place *at the end of the game*. "Endgame progression" would be a better term for gear progression that happens during max level raiding or pvp in WoW.

In which case, no Guild Wars 2 does not have "endgame progression" because once a character acquires level 80 gear, there is no longer any way to improve the character. The same could be said about Guild Wars 1, as there is no gear progression past level 20.

However, I would say that Guild Wars 1 has a massive "endgame" because there is much content that cannot be completed or is extremely difficult to complete with a character not at maximum level. Edit: Furthermore, there is much content in Guild Wars 1 that requires the completion of earlier content to have access to later content. The content that takes place at the end of a campaign is endgame content. Perhaps content that takes place beyond that (for example the Underworld, the Fissure of Woe, etc) could be considered postgame.

[Fencers]

Or maybe those were the only available options. Quite a lot of players dont actually take part in Raids. or if they do dont do all levels of them. Leading me to question whether your position is correct.

Not even sure why this matters at all. I am not talking about raids specifically. Only that end game involved power advancement.

Really not sure why minority or majority player base participating in raids has a damn to do with that either. You seem to be speaking to an argument that is mostly imaginary.

Endgame can include raids, but take for example rift, what of the following is and is not endgame:

Rift is a horrible example. Because all that DOES progress you beyond the level cap limitation. From Xp to dungeons to raids to IAs. Everything in Rift directly rewards with power increases. Like everything.

So yes, that is a popular endgame. Progression beyond the level cap.

btw, your tanking comment is pretty silly, and adds nothing to the discussion. It does not even make sense in the context of the discussion.

Disagree. As a comparison between frequent, poorly made arguments concerning the differing style of GW2; it's both a common and inaccurate point. Just as Competitive PVE and the like are often brought up.

There is no role trinity, competitive PVE structure or endgame in the common/popular sense in Guild Wars 2.

Marketing regurgitation is pretty loathsome impulse among game fans. I was speaking directly to that type of argument bred of fanaticism.

[Durzlla]

Or maybe those were the only available options. Quite a lot of players dont actually take part in Raids. or if they do dont do all levels of them. Leading me to question whether your position is correct.

Now compare it to the popularity of transmog runs for purely cosmetic gear, or the wardrobe tab in Rift, or the Orange customisable gear in Swtor....seams people do like "progression" even when its not based on increases in power.

Endgame can include raids, but take for example rift, what of the following is and is not endgame:
raids
5mans
IA
Raid rifts
Expert rifts
normal rifts
PVP rifts
Crafting rifts
PVP dailies
Daily quests
Zone invasions
Onslaughts
Instanced PVP
Conquest
I'd term that all as endgame.

The problem is that WoW has had such a narrow focus on raids that some people seam to think thats all endgame is. Even Bliz dont subscribe to this opinion, thats why they are diversifying the endgame in Mop< they have realised how outdated and unrealistic this position is.

btw, your tanking comment is pretty silly, and adds nothing to the discussion. It does not even make sense in the context of the discussion.

---------- Post added 2012-08-10 at 10:52 PM ----------



I am very excited to see DEs in Orr. The devs hinted that the Fire elemental Asura boss, whilst op for a starting zone, was not of a difficulty that would not be seen later in the game. If thats true, the later game DEs promise to be brutal.

This may be me, but I consider all the things listed that don't have "daily" in them end game.

As for that elemental he scared me... And the fact they said he was on the easier level of Orr REALLY scares me.... However, it does make me REALLY REALLY wanna go see some of the stuff in Orr, and I can see u being pushed to the beaches quite often if he's actually "easy"

[rhinomatic]

They should rename this site "Semantics Champion" because it seems like most of these threads simply turn into an argument about the appropriate use of a word.

Just to clearly define the term for posts from here on out: "Endgame" is what it is called when you enter the second stage of progression in most modern MMOs. The first stage of progression is leveling. The second stage comes from gear acquisition, points acquisition, or whatever it is you have to do to keep developing your character at the level cap.

GW2 doesn't have "Endgame" but that shouldn't be confused with "There's nothing to do at 80". GW2 doesn't have that second stage of character progression, the entire game is built around that first stage, and the first stage never ends.

So everyone is right. There is no "Endgame" but there is plenty to do at max level.

[Fencers]

Just to clearly define the term for posts from here on out: "Endgame" is what it is called when you enter the second stage of progression in most modern MMOs. The first stage of progression is leveling. The second stage comes from gear acquisition, points acquisition, or whatever it is you have to do to keep developing your character at the level cap.

GW2 doesn't have "Endgame" but that shouldn't be confused with "There's nothing to do at 80". GW2 doesn't have that second stage of character progression, the entire game is built around that first stage, and the first stage never ends.

Well stated.

But to be fair, the last guy who was claiming there was nothing to do at 80 was like 3 or 4 pages back. So lack of stuff at 80 wasn't really in question. Hehe. /semanticschampion

[Willias]

Just to clearly define the term for posts from here on out: "Endgame" is what it is called when you enter the second stage of progression in most modern MMOs. The first stage of progression is leveling. The second stage comes from gear acquisition, points acquisition, or whatever it is you have to do to keep developing your character at the level cap.

The endgame is just the content you do at "the end of the game". In Guild War 2's context that means level 80 exclusive dungeons and Orr.

MMOs are not the only video game genre that use the concept of "endgame". Some also use the term "postgame" which is content that happens after the end of the game (or endgame).

[Karizee]

They should rename this site "Semantics Champion" because it seems like most of these threads simply turn into an argument about the appropriate use of a word.

Just to clearly define the term for posts from here on out: "Endgame" is what it is called when you enter the second stage of progression in most modern MMOs. The first stage of progression is leveling. The second stage comes from gear acquisition, points acquisition, or whatever it is you have to do to keep developing your character at the level cap.

GW2 doesn't have "Endgame" but that shouldn't be confused with "There's nothing to do at 80". GW2 doesn't have that second stage of character progression, the entire game is built around that first stage, and the first stage never ends.

So everyone is right. There is no "Endgame" but there is plenty to do at max level.

I think you might have missed the part about continueing to acquire points which can be used to construct legendary weapons.

[Deleted]

I like how i said this several posts ago.

My boyfriend told me this when I was trying to post something here...

Internet rule nr 11
- All your carefully picked arguments can easily be ignored.

Internet rule nr 12
- Anything you say can and will be used against you.

And guess what happend lol. The only thing you can do is leave you opinion on something and hope someone reads it.


Anyway, imo. About end game...End game in GW2, is the same thing many have said. Its what you do after max level. And its not raids. You will be able to;

Gaining exp and gaining skill points
Run dungeons (explorable)
Farm ledgendary weapons
Elite DE's
PvP
"Fashion-Farming"
Crafting

And that's end game for me. Not everyone might see endgame in the same light as I.
And don't forget there will probably be a lot of new content pretty regularly.
But until the game have released and we have seen more of this "endgame" the devs are talking about, I think that topic is pretty hard to state like.. facts or assume their opinion is the truth. IMO..ofc. We only really know so much we have heard the devs say or have seen with our own eyes. ^^

[rhinomatic]

I think you might have missed the part about continueing to acquire points which can be used to construct legendary weapons.

Which you do how exactly? By doing the same stuff you've been doing since level 1?

Right. The same exact thing.

Thus, no second stage. The game doesn't change from level 79 to 80. That's the difference between GW2 and just about every other game on the market.

[DrakeWurrum]

They should rename this site "Semantics Champion" because it seems like most of these threads simply turn into an argument about the appropriate use of a word.

Just to clearly define the term for posts from here on out: "Endgame" is what it is called when you enter the second stage of progression in most modern MMOs. The first stage of progression is leveling. The second stage comes from gear acquisition, points acquisition, or whatever it is you have to do to keep developing your character at the level cap.

GW2 doesn't have "Endgame" but that shouldn't be confused with "There's nothing to do at 80". GW2 doesn't have that second stage of character progression, the entire game is built around that first stage, and the first stage never ends.

So everyone is right. There is no "Endgame" but there is plenty to do at max level.

I'm glad somebody out there gets it.


The problem here isn't so much the definition of endgame, but that for the better part of the last decade (if not longer) people have considered endgame to be an alternate term for "raiding" simply because that's where the "mmo champion" has dedicated their endgame development, to the point that nothing else in the game is worth doing at level 80.

Now that a game developer is daring to break from that tradition, and introduce other things to do, some people are freaking out, because they can't even grasp the concept of non-raid content being designed in such a way that's fun.

[iCandy]

People just need to stop using WoW as the standard. Why do you think so many MMO's that copied WoW, went F2P in less than a year? Because people got excited about a new MMO, then they realized.."wait, I've played this game before". I think Rift is the only "wow clone" that still has a sub fee and that is amazing because that game literally looks like WoW's older but less experienced brother.

If raiding 25man raids is all you want to do at max level...then don't buy GW2. We were informed of their "end game" plan a while back, why it became such an issue 2 weeks before release boggles my mind.

[DrakeWurrum]

If raiding 25man raids is all you want to do at max level...then don't buy GW2. We were informed of their "end game" plan many months ago, why it became such an issue 2 weeks before release boggles my mind.

Because gamers typically start bandwagons to jump on when a release is impending. They want to avoid the "hype" or some nonsense like that.

[Malthurius]

Well, for us that have been following the game for years now it's not really a big deal because we've known about it. For newer players (players that have actually started looking into the game maybe a couple weeks or days ago) I can see how they can find the end game model questionable when most other MMOs have been painted to fail because of a lack of endgame.

[iggie]

While it'll be interesting for a bit, the Pve will become stale and boring, quicker than other mmos. That is why it's B2P and has no sub.

[DrakeWurrum]

While it'll be interesting for a bit, the Pve will become stale and boring, quicker than other mmos. That is why it's B2P and has no sub.

Couldn't be more wrong.

[Durzlla]

While it'll be interesting for a bit, the Pve will become stale and boring, quicker than other mmos. That is why it's B2P and has no sub.

Oh you think sub fees make content interesting? Please do tell me how you're enjoying grinding the same content for months on Ed so you can do that same task for the next raid!

[DanBowie]

PvP on this game should be great. Wonder if pve will even be worth after playing bioware's amazing story

[iggie]

Couldn't be more wrong.

Neither of us is right until we see the pve end game. It could be a hit, or it could be another tor. Try to cut down on the useless posts.

Oh you think sub fees make content interesting? Please do tell me how you're enjoying grinding the same content for months on Ed so you can do that same task for the next raid!

When did I say that? Can you read? The game is BUY TO PLAY and has NO SUB because it likely wouldn't be worth a sub to many players.

Some people like gear treadmills. Some don't. That's that.

[Willias]

Which you do how exactly? By doing the same stuff you've been doing since level 1?

Right. The same exact thing.

Thus, no second stage. The game doesn't change from level 79 to 80. That's the difference between GW2 and just about every other game on the market.

Level 1 characters cannot complete content in Orr.

The problem here isn't so much the definition of endgame, but that for the better part of the last decade (if not longer) people have considered endgame to be an alternate term for "raiding" simply because that's where the "mmo champion" has dedicated their endgame development, to the point that nothing else in the game is worth doing at level 80.

To be fair, the raid game in most modern mmos is a form of perpetual endgame, at least until the end of a certain set of content. Also, most MMOs don't incorporate typical game progression that involves completing various scenarios in a specified order, and instead focus entirely on the leveling curve.

I guess my problem with the whole debate is that endgame has a pretty clear definition, but because Guild Wars 2's endgame is different from the typical endgame for the genre, people either see that the game "is all endgame" as the developers claim, or "has no endgame" which is also false as there is a campaign (at least within the personal story) that leads the player to an endgame situation (the battle with Zhaitan). Furthermore the game is also similar to other MMOs where there is content that can only be completed by reaching the end of the leveling curve (any dungeon that requires level 80 could be considered an endgame or a postgame dungeon, though most will likely go with endgame).

The thought that there must be some sort of continued progression through end game seems preposterous to me as there are certain objectives and scenarios within the game that may only be completed once the player has reached the end of progression (ergo endgame).

[DrakeWurrum]

The game is BUY TO PLAY and has NO SUB because it likely wouldn't be worth a sub to many players.

Again: Couldn't be more wrong. With that kind of logic, that's why Diablo 3, Starcraft 2, Diablo 2, and Starcraft have all had the same model.

With that kind of logic, SWTOR using the same model as WoW should have been insanely popular and competed with WoW for having the most subs.