Why is the MoP mage specs so similar and homogenized?

[Gamdwelf]

Is it because you like playing frost and don't care much about the other specs?

No because I believe that people should be able to play the spec they like in whatever facet of the game they want to.

If you want to PvP but like fire spec, you should be able to, or arcane in PvE. With MoP it looks like that will finally be accomplished.
Even if you don't like the lvl 90 talents, (just like I don't) you can't argue that they do not change how you are going to play your mage even within the same spec.

---------- Post added 2012-08-21 at 03:59 PM ----------

Do you like RPing?

And you need to read more then, he defends the talents all through this thread for instance, and this just one of many:
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...2942012?page=4

No I'm not really big in to RP, but I still feel like my mage is my mage, and to some degree how I spec, should matter.

And once again he is not saying the lvl 90 talents are great, but arguing against people who are saying just remove them as a whole instead of offering up legitimate alternative suggestions, that offer interesting game play.

[Meillassoux]

The problem is that alternate solutions have been give by many players but since blizz hasn't responded people are becoming desperate or stop caring.

[Ellsian]

Here, I found the post that sums up EXACTLY what's going on regarding the 90 talent discussion and people's dislike of lhivera's input as a result (keep in mind, he's never used the talents since he's never leveled to 90):

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...6069?page=5#84

Lhivera: "These talents provide pretty much exactly what I'm looking for: playstyle differentiation, a sense of style, and the ability to squeeze out a little extra damage with skillful play. I like that Rune and Invocation each very much suits the personality of one of my Mages (Incanter's Ward I don't much care for, purely for subjective reasons). Lhiv is the studious, calculating type who will use Rune of Power; Meyrink is a reckless lover of raw arcane energy who will use Invocation."

Reply from Terrorific:
"Meanwhile everyone else will actually pick the one that's best for the encounter instead of gimping their class in order to RP."

and one silly rp comment for good measure:
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...6069?page=5#96

".. if I had my way, it'd require a lengthy quest chain, a lot of gold, and a Blizzard employee would come to your house and punch you in the gut for doing it. And you don't even want to know what would happen if you switched specs."

Actually, this entire thread is good reading regarding the 90 talent debate: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...7176069?page=1

[Gamdwelf]

The problem is that alternate solutions have been give by many players but since blizz hasn't responded people are becoming desperate or stop caring.

Does nobody actually like that we get interesting game changing lvl 90 talents, instead of what the other pures get, like
Hunters: 3 moves, that they can add into their rotation
Rogues: Combo point teir
Warlocks: PvP talent/channel while moving/bigger aoe

I understand that people dislike the lvl 90s because movement seems to be a big thing, but I still feel like we have more interesting talents than any other pures for our lvl 90 talents.

[Ellsian]

Does nobody actually like that we get interesting game changing lvl 90 talents, instead of what the other pures get, like
Hunters: 3 moves, that they can add into their rotation
Rogues: Combo point teir
Warlocks: PvP talent/channel while moving/bigger aoe

I understand that people dislike the lvl 90s because movement seems to be a big thing, but I still feel like we have more interesting talents than any other pures for our lvl 90 talents.

How are they interesting game play changes? It's a) channel evocate like a maniac and hope not to get interrupted b) stand in one place! c) hope to absorb damage

I'm failing to see any game change here. Channeling Evocate 6x as often as we did in cata is not something i find "game changing." All I see are hindrances that don't add anything to fire or frost rotations at all, and only work to push arcane's mobility problems onto those specs (which also falls into our homogenization discussion!).

The talents are like a version of improved soulfire but worse, they're huge spell damage maintenace buffs with mobility/dmg penalties that needs to be upkept so that you can do your normal damage just to compete with other classes.

[PhantomAgony]

How are they interesting game play changes? It's a) channel evocate like a maniac and hope not to get interrupted b) stand in one place! c) hope to absorb damage

I'm failing to see any game change here. Channeling Evocate 6x as often as we did in cata is not something i find "game changing." All I see are hindrances that don't add anything to fire or frost rotations at all, and only work to push arcane's mobility problems onto those specs (which also falls into our homogenization discussion!).

The talents are like a version of improved soulfire but worse, they're huge spell damage maintenace buffs with mobility/dmg penalties that needs to be upkept so that you can do your normal damage just to compete with other classes.

Exactly, the level 90 tier looks good on paper... but in practice, they really really do not play well.

[zomgDPS]

No, I haven't been reading the Beta stuff, and I can't belive that Lhiv would say those things

If we are to be honest, this is part of the greater problem isn't it.

People are so quick to just "believe" the MVP that they don't even bother checking for facts. You openly state that you have no knowledge about what has been going on in the beta, and within the same breath, you say you do not believe the people who do know.

And nowhere does he say that its fine the way the lvl 90 talents are now

But don't worry, people in this thread will give you the proof you need. Like Ellsian just did.

But lets turn this little exercise on its head for a moment. Why don't we put the burden of proof on you for a change. You asked for proof from us and it was delivered. Now its your turn.


Why don't you crawl through the beta forums and find one, just one post, by the MVP where he is actually constructively discussing Arcane mage gameplay from an experienced standpoint.

Just one. Not two or three or the twenty counter-facts that were just provided to you.

Just one.


Then you will begin to see the problem from where we are sitting. Blind faith, my friend, can be a powerful thing, sure, but it can also lead to your own demise.
Just because he has green text, doesn't mean you should give him a carte blanche. As many here have stated, he is good for a few things, balancing numbers and talking about RP. But when it comes to actually caring about the gameplay of non-frost specs, the MVP has proven, without a shadow of a doubt and with a metric ton of factual evidence to support it, he has proven that he does not care.

Does nobody actually like that we get interesting game changing lvl 90 talents

There is an massive multi-page thread on the beta forums, stocked full of feedback from beta mages. Every single one of them is saying what PhantomAgony just said.

"The talents do not work in practice"

But don't turn away yet, there's more.

There is a single mage in the beta who does not share that belief. Yes, you guessed it, its the MVP.

The best part is, his reasoning for liking them is exactly like yours, i.e. not a single point is based in reality but in the "fantasy of RP" for the talents. The issue we (and everyone else on the beta) has with him, is that he hasn't done a lick of raiding and has absolutely no idea how the real world works.

You want a perfect example of this (there are literally thousands by now, but this one is so recent). Take a look at this statement by the MVP:

An Arcane Mage with Scorch, Blazing Speed, and Incanter's Ward is going to be more mobile than a Fire Mage with Presence of Mind, Temporal Shield, and Rune of Power. A Fire Mage with Frost Bomb is liable to be better at large-group AOE than a Frost Mage with Nether Tempest

On the surface, it looks like such a harmless statement, but it is so absolutely wrong.

There is not a single situation, encounter or fight where one mage would take Scorch and another would take PoM. There isn't a single fight where one mage in the raid would take RoP while another mage in the same raid and same fight would take Incanters.

And that is the point. He basically says that Arcane is ok because a fire mage who willingly chooses to nerf himself is at parity with the Arcane mage.

No, what will actually happen, is that raiding mages will all take the same talent on the same fight. The fight where the Arcane mage takes IW, the Fire mage will take IW too. If one mage takes Scorch because its a movement heavy fight, the others mages will take scorch too. Thats how raiding actually works. People min max and its a fact of life.

But he doesn't get that. He is still living in his fantasy RP world where people make raiding and talent decisions based off of what the "feel".

Sure, some extreme minority of players out there like you and him might, but for the greater playerbase, that is not the case.

He just doesn't get that. Hopefully you do now.

[Gamdwelf]

Games are about fun, not min maxing.

If you really think they is an optional talent choices for current fights lay them out right now, explaining why different talents would be required for fights on live.

[zomgDPS]

If you really think they is an optional talent choices for current fights lay them out right now, explaining why different talents would be required for fights on live.

I'll do one better.

I'll actually lay out what a mage on the beta who has actually raided in MoP has laid out as the min/max talent options for the different raid encounters.

Here is Mivva's post.

Since, by your own admission, you have no idea what's actually taking place in the beta, let me just say, Mivva is perhaps one of the most experienced raiding mages who is actually raiding in the beta right now. He has been providing consistent feedback about how mages of all specs are in raids as well as how the talents work (or don't in RoP case).



As a completely separate point, I urge you again to turn to facts to color your beliefs and not just 'faith'.
Just because you haven't bothered to go and find the truth, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. You keep placing the burden of proof on others, but provide nothing but your 'faith' when questioned.

Please let the rational side of your mind take over for a bit. The facts, the truth and the data is out there, you must be prepared to go get it if you want to contribute to the discussion in any meaningful way.

It is ironic that you started in this thread *gasp*ing on how people can take me seriously, even when I provide proof for my claims.

But instead, you expect others to take you seriously when you admittedly have nothing to back yours up? You expect us to take your viewpoint into account when you are basically to lazy to even look up the facts on the beta forums for yourself?

How can we take you seriously?

[Gamdwelf]

Oh look in his post is almost every encounter he only lists lvl 90 talents, and for each encounter, at least 2 options are viable.

[zomgDPS]

Oh look in his post is almost every encounter he only lists lvl 90 talents, and for each encounter, at least 2 options are viable.

/facepalm

If you looked a little closer, you would realize that the topic for the thread is particularly about the level 90 talents.

The point of me linking that is that eventually, the same will happen to all talents. Min/Maxed on a per fight basis will be theorycrafted/experimented out and posted, and that is what people will take.

But at this point, I really just think you are trolling. Especially since you are blatantly ignoring our requests for you to provide some proof for your claims.

I think I'll just ignore you from now on. At least that way this thread can remain constructive. Thanks and good luck!

[Ellsian]

Oh look in his post is almost every encounter he only lists lvl 90 talents, and for each encounter, at least 2 options are viable.

If you parse through his logs you can see his talent choices:
PoM or Ice Floes
Temporal Shield
Cauterize
Nether Tempest
IW or Invocation

Mivva has made it a point to explain that rune of power isn't very viable in the new raids compared to the other options, and that IW is the best choice to take as long as you can take enough damage to upkeep it. Looks like he only used invocation in about 3-4 fights out of all 16 raids in his guild logs and IW for everything else.

[Ifeanychukwu]

Its funny how I said this like 3 months ago and it got sweeped under a rug by pretty much everyone.. Though glad to see am not alone in this


And yes its the same for pretty much every class..

Not druids

[Gamdwelf]

If you parse through his logs you can see his talent choices:
PoM or Ice Floes
Temporal Shield
Cauterize
Nether Tempest
IW or Invocation

Mivva has made it a point to explain that rune of power isn't very viable in the new raids compared to the other options, and that IW is the best choice to take as long as you can take enough damage to upkeep it. Looks like he only used invocation in about 3-4 fights out of all 16 raids in his guild logs and IW for everything else.

but his choices are completely different from what zomg dps thought was best. that is my point, different people are going to think the different talents are better or not.

If you want to blindly follow somebody else though that is up to you.

Zomgdps though scorch was best first tier, and cold snap was best in the cauterize tier. And as long as you use your bomb spell it matters much more on how many targets there are, and single target, they are all close enough it doesn't matter.

[zomgDPS]

Zomgdps though scorch was best first tier, and cold snap was best in the cauterize tier. And as long as you use your bomb spell it matters much more on how many targets there are, and single target, they are all close enough it doesn't matter.

So we have resorted to lying now?

I guess it makes sense. When you have no facts to back up your claim, I guess you just have to make some up *shrugs*

Pray do tell, where exactly did I say all these amazing things that you claim I did?

[Gamdwelf]

If we are to be honest, this is part of the greater problem isn't it.

People are so quick to just "believe" the MVP that they don't even bother checking for facts. You openly state that you have no knowledge about what has been going on in the beta, and within the same breath, you say you do not believe the people who do know.



But don't worry, people in this thread will give you the proof you need. Like Ellsian just did.

But lets turn this little exercise on its head for a moment. Why don't we put the burden of proof on you for a change. You asked for proof from us and it was delivered. Now its your turn.


Why don't you crawl through the beta forums and find one, just one post, by the MVP where he is actually constructively discussing Arcane mage gameplay from an experienced standpoint.

Just one. Not two or three or the twenty counter-facts that were just provided to you.

Just one.


Then you will begin to see the problem from where we are sitting. Blind faith, my friend, can be a powerful thing, sure, but it can also lead to your own demise.
Just because he has green text, doesn't mean you should give him a carte blanche. As many here have stated, he is good for a few things, balancing numbers and talking about RP. But when it comes to actually caring about the gameplay of non-frost specs, the MVP has proven, without a shadow of a doubt and with a metric ton of factual evidence to support it, he has proven that he does not care.


There is an massive multi-page thread on the beta forums, stocked full of feedback from beta mages. Every single one of them is saying what PhantomAgony just said.

"The talents do not work in practice"

But don't turn away yet, there's more.

There is a single mage in the beta who does not share that belief. Yes, you guessed it, its the MVP.

The best part is, his reasoning for liking them is exactly like yours, i.e. not a single point is based in reality but in the "fantasy of RP" for the talents. The issue we (and everyone else on the beta) has with him, is that he hasn't done a lick of raiding and has absolutely no idea how the real world works.

You want a perfect example of this (there are literally thousands by now, but this one is so recent). Take a look at this statement by the MVP:


On the surface, it looks like such a harmless statement, but it is so absolutely wrong.

There is not a single situation, encounter or fight where one mage would take Scorch and another would take PoM. There isn't a single fight where one mage in the raid would take RoP while another mage in the same raid and same fight would take Incanters.

And that is the point. He basically says that Arcane is ok because a fire mage who willingly chooses to nerf himself is at parity with the Arcane mage.

No, what will actually happen, is that raiding mages will all take the same talent on the same fight. The fight where the Arcane mage takes IW, the Fire mage will take IW too. If one mage takes Scorch because its a movement heavy fight, the others mages will take scorch too. Thats how raiding actually works. People min max and its a fact of life.

But he doesn't get that. He is still living in his fantasy RP world where people make raiding and talent decisions based off of what the "feel".

Sure, some extreme minority of players out there like you and him might, but for the greater playerbase, that is not the case.

He just doesn't get that. Hopefully you do now.

^ right there.

[Ellsian]

Latest patch is up, set for "Release." Mage devs are truly done, no more changes, stuck with the talents!

[zomgDPS]

^ right there.

Rofl! You quote my entire post, no. You need to quote the exact statement I made.

Its interesting, because by now even you realize your attempt at trolling has failed. But please, I want to see how far you can actually go, so, why don't you quote, from all my posts exactly where I stated:

"scorch was best first tier, and cold snap was best in the cauterize tier".

Which is exactly what you said was my position, here I'll quote you:

Zomgdps though scorch was best first tier, and cold snap was best in the cauterize tier. And as long as you use your bomb spell it matters much more on how many targets there are, and single target, they are all close enough it doesn't matter.

There. You see how I have bolded and underlined the exact spot in your post where you claimed what I said, please return the favor and do the exact same thing with my post.

Please bold, underline or highlight where in my post I used the phrase:

"scorch is best first tier, and cold snap is best in the cauterize tier"

I really want to see how you will get out of this one

---------- Post added 2012-08-21 at 03:26 PM ----------

Latest patch is up, set for "Release." Mage devs are truly done, no more changes, stuck with the talents!

Yup, its pretty much GG at this point.

[Hurpdurp]

^ right there.

I play a mage on occasion but even I can see what zomgdps is saying with his statement while you totally miss it. He didnt say scorch was the best in that tier... he stated for a movement heavy fight raiding mages would take scorch. Best for a fight does not = best for a tier. Best for a tier does not seem to exist. You WILL be faced with a best for the encounter choice if you are a min/max raider. If you prefer to drag everyone else down raiding, or are in a semi casual raiding guild you can pick w/e you like.

[zomgDPS]

I play a mage on occasion but even I can see what zomgdps is saying with his statement while you totally miss it. He didnt say scorch was the best in that tier... he stated for a movement heavy fight raiding mages would take scorch. Best for a fight does not = best for a tier. Best for a tier does not seem to exist. You WILL be faced with a best for the encounter choice if you are a min/max raider. If you prefer to drag everyone else down raiding, or are in a semi casual raiding guild you can pick w/e you like.

Exactly!

The thing is that he gets it too, because no one can be that stupid really.

But lets see how he tries to weasel himself out of the corner he has made for himself. I for one, think its all quite humorous