>.> some idiotic guild management there, we have a couple of women doing a perfect job at what they do.
Why shouldn't the idiot guys be kicked? I've seen guys get pissed off and hate on girls for legitimately winning loot via DKP, for knocking them back, for talking to other people, for doing every other kind of totally normal shit that people can do which apparently turns into a huge issue for some guys if a girl does it (see the rest of this thread for about a million examples). When that happens it suddenly becomes 'girl drama' despite the fact that it's actually drama started by the guys, based in their own shitty issues and expectations, and the girl has done nothing other than try to play the game. It's the guys wrecking the guild, the guys causing the drama, and the guys responsibility for it, and that should be recognised.
As to why I have a problem with the guild in question my issue isn't that they're excluding people, they have every right to do that no matter how stupid it is, my issue is that their comments have made it abundantly clear that their objections are based in their own concerns and issues, and have nothing to do with the female applicants, who despite that are still somehow being blamed for it being their fault. It isn't actually their fault, it is the guilds fault and the guilds choice and they should grow the fuck up and take some responsibility for that instead of blaming the people they're excluding (it's called vicitim blaming, it's a bad thing, look it up).
Last edited by Windfury; 2012-08-19 at 10:02 AM.
Let's put it this way. I've been in two TOP 5 US guilds, and by some miracle I've ended up seeing 4 of the last 5 female member's nudes. For the VERY small handful of talented female raiders who manage to keep up with the guys, it's just not worth it. (Every girl except two have been healers, which makes it even harder to calculate someone's talent) People in top guilds spend the large majority of their time in game, and relationships and drama always unfold.
You can talk about men being mature, or girls not being flirty, but it's happened every single time I can think of where the girl isn't some 70 year old overweight mom.
Last edited by Fountaiinn; 2012-08-19 at 10:02 AM.
So was your guild leadership letting people in who shouldn't have been there, in which case it's a flaw with your leadership/recruiting, or were the dudes seriously pressuring the chicks for nudes? From my experiance I can tell you that's what happens, female players get put under a huge amonut of pressure, if they cave and say yes the pics get passed around and they're whores, if they say no they're stuck up bitches (guess which I was!) and some guys will hate them forever for knocking them back. That's why I hate these scenarios so much, chicks literally can not win no matter what way they go, and it's all always their fault, never the guys who are pressuring them or who let them in when they shouldn't have been there because they were hoping to get something or whatever. It's total BS.
If you saw 4 nudes then guess what? You were partially responsibile for creating the drama you're crying about, and you're creating the culture that's the fucking problem. Congratulations!
Females cause drama.
You can get into specifics about point of view, opinion and self-presentation, but there's no need. They cause drama.
---------- Post added 2012-08-19 at 06:25 AM ----------
That's not to say that Males don't cause drama as well...but just like anything that is male dominated, interjecting the opposite gender is just asking for dramatic incite.
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You mean that discriminating is efficient I assume? I don't see how adding the whole extra layer of blame, drama and lies that comes with victim blaming could possibly be efficient. Care to explain? I'm not disputing the right to exclude. My problem is the victim blaming. If you want to exclude go ahead, but take the responsibility for your own actions and choices.
Last edited by Windfury; 2012-08-19 at 10:26 AM.
Rest In Peace, World of Warcraft. Subscriber count doesn't matter, WoW has been dead in spirit for a while
Rest In Peace, Star Wars the Old Republic. SWTOR is a fun RPG, but a bad MMO
Fair? Perhaps. But it's a lot easier to just ditch the female. We're talking about a game here after all, if I had to choose between having a quick solution by removing the female, and addressing several males causing even more drama and possibly stretching the drama and fighting and whining for days, I'd ditch the female.
---------- Post added 2012-08-19 at 01:31 PM ----------
In a way, yes. But it's a lot easier to get rid of one female than several males.
Those are some nice stereotypes you have there. Do you have anything to back that up aside from meaningless personal annecdotes? Some research perhaps? Any useful stats?
Of course not, because it's bs and nothing like that exists. Saying it over and over isn't going to make it true.
The reality is that 99% of everyone, male and female is bad. Why are you making it gender specific? I assure you there's plenty of baddies out there with dicks as well, more statistically in fact. I promise you more than 90% of male apps high end guilds recieve are total rubbish and the good ones have to be weeded out as well. Which takes exactly the same amount of time (more in fact because there's more male apps generally). And we've already gone over blaming women for men making drama about them is bs, they don't have a say in it and other people chosing to act like jerks isn't their responsibility. Man up and own your own shit instead of forcing it on to other people.
Fine, but man the fuck up and say that's what you're doing instead of blaming the women who have nothing actually to do with the guilds actions or choices. They shouldn't have to take responsibility for all of the bs emotional problems of your raid team if they seriously can't handle a female in guild.
Last edited by Windfury; 2012-08-19 at 10:38 AM.
This thread certainly provided an exhaustive answer to the question asked by the OP.
When someone asks, “What is best in life?” there’s only one answer: “To crush the newbs, see them driven before me, and read their lamentations on the forums” - Lylirra
Rest In Peace, World of Warcraft. Subscriber count doesn't matter, WoW has been dead in spirit for a while
Rest In Peace, Star Wars the Old Republic. SWTOR is a fun RPG, but a bad MMO
I had multiple bad experience in guilds were girls destroyed everything ... one time it was one who lived with an officer and then slept with 3-4 other guildies over the months... when that transpired, I let you imagine the chaos...
An other time, it was an officer (female) who was like a princess and didn't support the fact that other girls could "take her place" in the guild life and became a real pain by trying to seduce guildies to join her cause... Needless to say the guild split shortly after that...
Recently we recruited a female player who doesn't accept any critics about her gameplay and such, and act like a real princess cause she's accustomed to men offering her pets, mounts, etc... She made an officer give her the Madness HM mount without any rand and caused an uproar because of that... ever since she's in the guild, there's tensions and groups of people fighting each other to defend her or criticize her...
Those kind of female player are a real pain, but it's not the majority. I've known plenty over the years and apart of these 3 example and maybe some other minor things I've always had a good experience with girls in game (the only thing I can honestly say is that in the vast majority, they're not as good as men in raid... there's some exception obviously I know one of those girl whose a freaking robot it's scary !) ...
I can totally understand guilds who don't want to take a risk by letting girls in. But be careful not to generalize =)
It can be men or women that cause drama. Honestly, I've seen more guys causing dramatic issues. I'm also a male saying this.
"A bird doesn't sing because it has an answer, it sings because it has a song. -Lou Holtz"
If guild relationships cause drama, wouldn't it make more sense to put a ban on guild relationships? No bf/gf in the same guild. Which is by the way what most serious real world companies do.
Last edited by namelessone; 2012-08-19 at 10:52 AM.
The night is dark and full of terrors...
Rest In Peace, World of Warcraft. Subscriber count doesn't matter, WoW has been dead in spirit for a while
Rest In Peace, Star Wars the Old Republic. SWTOR is a fun RPG, but a bad MMO