PvE players put too much hope into Guild Wars 2 ?

[mag07]

I saw people that loved raiding talking about GW2 and saying "End game is gonna be so awesome, downing bosses in explorable mode will keep us busy for months! Can't wait to see the armour sets" It's sad because these people will waste their money and be left with a bad taste in their mouths after geting the real GW2 (the GW2 we should have been thinking about instead of trying to make it something it's not).

And on what assumptions do you base your opinion that this is not the case?

There are dynamic events all through the world, there are dungeons with two difficulty levels in game, there are armor sets of different quality, as well as weapons.

While there isn't a gear treadmill as such, being of a competitive nature myself, a better allocation of stats on a piece of gear, one that suits my build or play style more is very much a carrot for me. I'd rather have +xxx power and condition dmg, then +++toughness and condition dmg. Across the multiple pieces of gear, it will make a fairly significant difference. Just like in WoW, people would quite happily spent their dkp/gp on a side-grade chest, simply cos it had haste instead of crit on it.

Similarly, in pvp, depending on whom your teammates are, profession wise, you will want/need a specifically itemized gear to serve the group best. It also applies to pve, if you're planning to treat dungeons like raids and do them in an organized manner.

There is carrot all over, and if you munch all that you can possibly eat, well, try the jumping puzzles

I used to raid a lot and I personally welcome the game as it is...if I want a raid, well, last time I checked, despite dropping subs, WoW wasn't going anywhere, it's there if I feel an irresistible urge to wipe for 4 hours straight. Meanwhile, I can relax and play a game that is b2p. I am only level 22 on my GW2 char and already feel like it was money well spent, everything else will be a bonus.

Also, check how often content was added to the original GW - whether free or paid. And then, lets talk.

[ddsad2212]

Your really assuming alot hear, tbh even if your 100% right in the end, you cant act like you forseen what would happen all that would be is a lucky guess. We dont know how good the end game is until we do it (or until we watch videos on it and pretend we did it on forums like 90% of the people who "clear all hc modes in wow"). Can we make these thread one month in when there based on evidence , not assumptions. Again you may well be 100% right, but the must you could have done is the first 3 dungeons on explorable mode, maybe the 4th, but if you got that far, i honestly have no idea how you cleared it and leveled. You`d actually have to be in the best group in the world to do that and thats based on evidence not assumptions(basing kunguns group as a world class group)

[Morrowind]

Ok, I guess I'll try and address your original post. First of all, you're trying to tie together "PvE players" and "end game content/raid experience". These two things do not always necessarily line up. Just look at WoW's statistics of how many players never reach max level or participate in raids. There's plenty of other content to do.

You say that you liked adventuring with friends. GW2 has this.

You say you like getting more powerful. GW2 has this, though not on the scale that WoW does. You will not be getting +100 or +200 more stats with every tier of gear.

You say you like clearing content. GW2 has this.

It seems that you're infatuated with the exponential increase of numbers as either stats or damage numbers. Is this really what you want? Is it the only thing that defines a raiding experience? Are you not doing it to see the content?

The cosmetic appeal can't be completely dismissed. People are always looking forward to making their character look cooler or more distinguishable from the rest. It's why WoW in each tier iteration has increasingly wilder designs and bigger shoulders. It's why games have costume functionality and people idle around in front of the banks on their epic achievement mounts.

You seem to only see it as fun if you're required to beat Big Bad Dragon #1 to use its gear to beat Big Bad Dragon #2. Why is this necessary? Do you really need a piece of armor or a sword to confirm for you that you totally destroyed #1, to give you validation? Or is it solely for the "awesome stats"?

And you say you'd have nothing to do once you've exhausted all of the content, and that it doesn't provide you with "progress". What do you normally do when you finish the raids in your other MMOs? Do them again? Are you really doing them because they're fun? Or are you doing them because your one piece of loot hasn't dropped? Are you really progressing when you're just spinning your wheels in place?

I really wish WoW had gone through with their "number crunch" or "mega damage" idea for taming the wildly growing numbers of their game. It's kind of funny how games have changed their scoring systems over the years. We've gone from games giving high scores in the 100's to today, where no one is happy unless they're getting 100,000 per hit. It's all relative.

Guild Wars was never a game about getting bigger numbers, yet you cite it as your main reason for playing MMOs. Is it really any wonder that you don't like GW2 then?

GW2 doesn't see gear like other MMOs do (which may or may not be a bad thing depending on your perspective)

No matter how many times I clear content I enjoy it because of the new gear I may or may not get. However, in GW2 you'll be eventually clearing the same content for simple cosmetics.

[Gray_Matter]

What I've noticed is a lot of GW2 fans seem to get very defensive over the notion that there could perhaps be a flaw with their game (not even a flaw they feel is there, but someone else stating they see it gets the fans mad).

Why does something that does things differently have to be a "flaw"? The problem is that you are talking from your perspective. There will be some people that agree with you and others that don't. People don't need to strive to be raiders in wow any more with LFR. Even the LFR DW kills would probably not hit 25% of the wow player base. Raiding may be an important aspect of an MMO for you but it won't be for everyone.

I have seen posts from HC raiders who are besotted with GW2 and others from regular raiders who are unhappy.

The thing is, what does it cost anyone to try out GW2? $60. That's the same price as something like Tomb Raider. Even if people only enjoy playing it for a month, they will still get value for money. Treat it as you would a single player game and if it lasts longer, you really hit the jackpot.

[Morrowind]

And on what assumptions do you base your opinion that this is not the case?

There are dynamic events all through the world, there are dungeons with two difficulty levels in game, there are armor sets of different quality, as well as weapons.

While there isn't a gear treadmill as such, being of a competitive nature myself, a better allocation of stats on a piece of gear, one that suits my build or play style more is very much a carrot for me. I'd rather have +xxx power and condition dmg, then +++toughness and condition dmg. Across the multiple pieces of gear, it will make a fairly significant difference. Just like in WoW, people would quite happily spent their dkp/gp on a side-grade chest, simply cos it had haste instead of crit on it.

Similarly, in pvp, depending on whom your teammates are, profession wise, you will want/need a specifically itemized gear to serve the group best. It also applies to pve, if you're planning to treat dungeons like raids and do them in an organized manner.

There is carrot all over, and if you munch all that you can possibly eat, well, try the jumping puzzles

Also, check how often content was added to the original GW - whether free or paid. And then, lets talk.

Anet stated themselves that endgame/highlevel gear in GW2 is purely cosmetic.

DEs will get old after doing them for 80 lvls with no "carrot on the stick" seeing as the DE is the carrot.

---------- Post added 2012-08-28 at 12:11 AM ----------

Why does something that does things differently have to be a "flaw"? The problem is that you are talking from your perspective. There will be some people that agree with you and others that don't. People don't need to strive to be raiders in wow any more with LFR. Even the LFR DW kills would probably not hit 25% of the wow player base. Raiding may be an important aspect of an MMO for you but it won't be for everyone.

I have seen posts from HC raiders who are besotted with GW2 and others from regular raiders who are unhappy.

The thing is, what does it cost anyone to try out GW2? $60. That's the same price as something like Tomb Raider. Even if people only enjoy playing it for a month, they will still get value for money. Treat it as you would a single player game and if it lasts longer, you really hit the jackpot.

That was the point I made in my post...

[Gray_Matter]

GW2 doesn't see gear like other MMOs do (which may or may not be a bad thing depending on your perspective)

No matter how many times I clear content I enjoy it because of the new gear I may or may not get. However, in GW2 you'll be eventually clearing the same content for simple cosmetics.

Not many people are at end game level so it's difficult to say but from what I understand, it won't be the "same content" but rather different DE's. There is a big difference.

[Morrowind]

Not many people are at end game level so it's difficult to say but from what I understand, it won't be the "same content" but rather different DE's. There is a big difference.

Let's make no mistake, the gameplay is by no means unlimited...

In 80 levels you would have most likely seen every type of DE and eventually the pattern will repeat and for what?

[Spoonman]

Wow look at this, here is the second thread

[Gray_Matter]

That was the point I made in my post...

No, you said that was where it would fall down. That translates into "flaw". At the moment, that is only something from your perspective. If 2 million people buy the game and 1.6 million of those are still playing after 6 months would it be a success or failure in your eyes? A/Net will have their own sweet spot for that too. There is no way you can predict that at this point. You are saying that you don't like something that you think will happen to you when you reach level 80. That's fine, but it's just that, your opinion. Others will feel differently. There is not going to be any middle ground. Person A believes X and person B believes Y. Until time has passed and the situation plays itself out it will be nothing but conjecture.

Let me ask you this. Why did you make your original post?

---------- Post added 2012-08-27 at 11:21 PM ----------

Let's make no mistake, the gameplay is by no means unlimited...

In 80 levels you would have most likely seen every type of DE and eventually the pattern will repeat and for what?

So there is no point in Blizzard adding new dungeons, raids and bosses because people have already experienced every type?

[Deleted]

Why can't people just hold their opinion to their self? I don't care if you don't like the game tbh. All you accomplish with this is negative publicity for new players.
I like GW2 and I believe if you play it, like normal people would for 2-3 hours per day you will use a long time to get to lvl 80 and do everything. You forget about patches, which may or may not introduce better gear, dungeons, areas etc etc.
If you want to leave, fine, but do it silently, because many of us will play it for a long time.

You don't like opinions eh? Funny seeing as how you just gave yours. If people didn't give opinions whether they were asked for or not this forum would have only a fraction of posts, the world might not have been able to develop itself as it is today (I'm not talking about forums in that case) and life would be pretty boring without opinions.

If you dont like opinions then you shouldn't really be surfing this forum very much.

More on topic; I agree with you OP about prefering stats over looks but I also want to look good. I'm more of a casual gamer so I believe the explorable mode dungeons will satisfy my needs but they won't for everybody.

Although I love the game so far and everything about it, over the 3-day headstart I have felt the need to have multiple breaks to do other things and didn't hesitate to go to sleep at 1am. I've only played about 24 hours in total give or take which is rather low to what I thought I would play, granted I'm a casual gamer but when I was introduced to wow (only at start of cata btw) I was easily playing 6 hour periods without any needs for break other than food.

I know I'm going to carry on playing Guild Wars 2 for a long time but at a really casual level probably; apart from the part where I'm going to hunt down every single accolade like I'm still doing with 25% achievements left in WoW.

As Shadowcrafter posted, try Rift. It has really good end-game, I don't know anything about the new xpac but it they follow their style it will be pretty good.

[Morrowind]

No, you said that was where it would fall down. That translates into "flaw". At the moment, that is only something from your perspective. If 2 million people buy the game and 1.6 million of those are still playing after 6 months would it be a success or failure in your eyes? A/Net will have their own sweet spot for that too. There is no way you can predict that at this point. You are saying that you don't like something that you think will happen to you when you reach level 80. That's fine, but it's just that, your opinion. Others will feel differently. There is not going to be any middle ground. Person A believes X and person B believes Y. Until time has passed and the situation plays itself out it will be nothing but conjecture.

Let me ask you this. Why did you make your original post?

---------- Post added 2012-08-27 at 11:21 PM ----------



So there is no point in Blizzard adding new dungeons, raids and bosses because people have already experienced every type?

That is my point...Blizz can remake dungeons because the gear is the incentive whereas in GW2 you do it purely for fun (which fades rather fast)

I said the flaw was from my perspective yet GW2 fans still get so defensive.

[Deleted]

Let's make no mistake, the gameplay is by no means unlimited...

In 80 levels you would have most likely seen every type of DE and eventually the pattern will repeat and for what?

You know when they invent super immersive virtual reality RPGs which put you right in the world there are only going to be so many things to do. Games differ from life in that they have to by definition have a structure and that means giving you things to do. I have my problems with GW2 and the questing experience really hasnt clicked together for me yet, but saying that the gameplay is limited is a somewhat asinine criticism. The game is out, either play it or don't and when the playerbase takes a tumble in a month or two (which you are never going to get numbers about as it doesn't have subs) the critics can crow and the dedicated playerbase can have their game to themselves and everyone can move on until the next big shiny MMO.

[Thrage]

The problem with giving the horse the carrot is that he stops working.

[puppypizza]

GW2 doesn't see gear like other MMOs do (which may or may not be a bad thing depending on your perspective)

No matter how many times I clear content I enjoy it because of the new gear I may or may not get. However, in GW2 you'll be eventually clearing the same content for simple cosmetics.

Simple cosmetics = new gear, i.e. it's the reason people will run dungeons multiple times.

For example, in WoW, you run the same dungeon for a 10% chance of getting a new shield. You want it because it has +40 block rating or something. You run the content multiple times because it either never drops, or someone outrolls you for it. The only reason you need it is because it increases your survivability in the next raid by 0.2% or something. But does it matter in the long run?

It's simply a means to an end. Which I hope, that end is beating new bosses and seeing more lore and content. If you're playing simply because you want to log in every major patch and do 26,000 dmg/hit instead of the old 25,000 dmg/hit you used to do, isn't that a shallow way of looking at raiding?

All GW2 does is reduce the need to "gear" yourself up to take on level-appropriate content. Why should it matter that you have ilvl 384 equipment just so you can beat a boss that drops ilvl 390 equipment? Does gear really define a player? Or is it skill, or drive, or motivation?

That is my point...Blizz can remake dungeons because the gear is the incentive whereas in GW2 you do it purely for fun (which fades rather fast)

Pure fun is the incentive to play, instead of gear?

Just curious, what is your opinion on the new dungeon challenge mode that they're implementing in MoP? The one where you try to beat best times for clearing a dungeon and win transmogrifiable gear.

[Korgoth]

I know this: if life is illusion, then I am no less an illusion, and being thus, the illusion is real to me. I live, I burn with life, I love, I slay, and am content.

The illusion based gear grind in WoW worked. GW2 does away with that, opting instead to rely on the content experience to drive player participation. For me their combat design has failed to provide the enjoyment necessary to do away with that illusion. Other player's will reach their own conclusion about combat at some point, but at that point their is nothing to hold them to the game. Yet not working off a subscription model, it remains to be seen if ArenaNet cares about the player loss.

[mag07]

Anet stated themselves that endgame/highlevel gear in GW2 is purely cosmetic.

DEs will get old after doing them for 80 lvls with no "carrot on the stick" seeing as the DE is the carrot.

---------- Post added 2012-08-28 at 12:11 AM ----------



That was the point I made in my post...

Not sure what Anet stated or not, havent followed that closely but it is enough to take a look at stat allocation on same quality and level items ingame to realize that is hardly a cosmetic choice if you are into min/max things. The descrepancies are simply not as huge as they are in WoW due to linear progression model.
As for DEs, I consider them fun content, the carrot is dungeon challange modes, not DEs. Just as Vanilla raids were chaotic more then anything else, compared to the rather structured raids in WoW today, so will DEs be, simply due to the sheer number of people taking part in them. Will they get old quickly? Time will show, however no sooner then the same raid grows old on you after a couple of months. If yoy have played at least 20 levels you must have noticed several different event styles, and being open world and not boss locked in a room, there really is a lot of space for creativity when adding new ones. Take the game for what it is, like it or not, but let go of WoW for a moment, did you really want yet another clone?

[Madruga]

Its not a game about raids or anything like that. Ppl blindly starting to play the game and expecting features from other games are going to get a rude awakening. Far too many assumptions are made by ppl rather then looking up what a game actually has for features and set up. This is why the bubble bursts so hard and fast for so many players on other games. Then instead of realizing they assumed to much and expected features that were never going to be in place, they blame the game.[COLOR="red"]

I did not mean GW2 needs raids to be successfull. I do believe it is possible to have a different type of Endgame. And yes, you are right about people trying a game expecting things they have on another.

But I remember very clearly. Right before SWTOR launched, I posted about my concern in the lack of Endgame in it. And I remember a poster with a wookie avatar saying to me that it was not the case, that the people who were playing SWTOR were not concerned about Endgame, they were very excited about the leveling experience, which I do believe is awesome, and the community. Look what happened...

The Endgame in GW2 does not need to be raiding. It can be cosmetic, like someone stated, no problem.

But it has to exist, and has to be addictive. It has to keep people entertained.

I am hoping to see that happening.

[Simca]

It's hard to find anything in this forum I agree with honestly. I like WoW and GW2 for entirely different reasons because they are radically dissimilar games.

I'm glad this thread poster actually thought about what he had to say, said it in a kind and informative manner, and actually went beneath the surface of the games. The psychology of gaming is incredibly important to the success of games, and very few people realize this.

An example of this is that a game designed by entirely by consensus among gamers would be an awful game.

I did not mean GW2 needs raids to be successfull. I do believe it is possible to have a different type of Endgame. And yes, you are right about people trying a game expecting things they have on another.

But I remember very clearly. Right before SWTOR launched, I posted about my concern in the lack of Endgame in it. And I remember a poster with a wookie avatar saying to me that it was not the case, that the people who were playing SWTOR were not concerned about Endgame, they were very excited about the leveling experience, which I do believe is awesome, and the community. Look what happened...

The Endgame in GW2 does not need to be raiding. It can be cosmetic, like someone stated, no problem.

But it has to exist, and has to be addictive. It has to keep people entertained.

I am hoping to see that happening.

The thing is that Guild Wars 2 doesn't HAVE to have any endgame. Fable, Mass Effect, and The Witcher 2 all have no endgame. The game ends when you finish the content.

I'm not saying I agree with that (or disagree with that), but you need to challenge your own expectations for the genre (and the genre itself needs to be better defined).

[Vice80]

I'm an mmo fan and I will never ever again play any mmo that has gear progression. Or at least I won't play it seriously. I'm sick and tired of gear grind, I wanna get my stats fast and easy and preferably solo and only THEN play the actual game for cosmetic items. Thinking about "oh no, new raid is soon out, my hard earned gear is gonna be shit again and I'll have to work my ass off to get new upgrades and since I'm mostly casual I probably won't ever get this super awesome imba twohanded axe ever" is a real nightmare for me.
If any new mmo is planning to make gear progress again, then they'll have to make it absolutely solo obtainable through grind. No more "better player gets better gear/more nolife player gets better gear". Enough.
I also hate healer/tanks crap, it limits game and our choices. I'm sick of waiting for tank/healer, I'm sick of being "undergeared" for some dungeon, I'm sick of having to worry that this asshole I'm succesfully owning in pvp is going to get a heal from other player and turn the tide of battle into his favor.

[Granyala]

Just curious, what is your opinion on the new dungeon challenge mode that they're implementing in MoP? The one where you try to beat best times for clearing a dungeon and win transmogrifiable gear.

Well I couldn't care less about leader boards & rankings, and the gear they drop is butt ugly (Priest) to my taste. So I'll do them once, to see if it can be done and then I won't touch them for the rest of the expansion. (Unless I'm helping a friend who wants to do them)