You don't really have fewer talents. You never had much talent to begin with!

[Glorious Leader]

General Forums: We're going to go play Diablo 3.
Ghostcrawler: See you in, like, twenty minutes.

Diablo 3 was also an attempt to give players a similar choice in talent systems as wow is doing. I'm not sure why you'd use that as argument for them...

[KoffeKat]

Lol! Shot bro! Crack up as

[Crawford]

Diablo 3 was also an attempt to give players a similar choice in talent systems as wow is doing. I'm not sure why you'd use that as argument for them...

Diablo is a much simpler game across the board. You have a couple of buttons and a variety of abilities to map to those buttons, but in combat, you can really only do two things.

There's a high potential skill cap, because the margins for error were razor thin when racing for first kills, but for most players, it's a game about loot.

The complexity of WOW has never really come from the talent systems; you have to understand those to play on a very basic level, and they never worked as a mechanism for customization. Blizzard's new system essentially acknowledges that trees like the game has historically used fail structurally in a multiplayer game, because the loadout must always be optimal for a player to be competitive.

Moving all the modifiers related to throughput into the spec and limiting talents to utility makes talents themselves less important; a 4.X paladin with no talents cannot tank or heal, whereas a 5.x paladin gets the tanking kit as soon as he selects "protection" or the healing kit as soon as he takes "holy." But that's fine.

Honestly, in terms of time and demands, to play WoW at an even middling level is pretty demanding. Raid fights are complex enterprises that involve coordinating a lot of people. Heroic modes are some of the hardest challenges in gaming. There is nothing else out there that would stall out gamers like the people who do heroic world firsts for dozens of hours or hundreds of attempts. The challenge modes sound extremely difficult as well. People who claim the game has been "dumbed down" will have a chance to prove it by getting those gold medals in a couple of weeks, but I won't be holding my breath.

[Zoma]

Can't be unseen. The Beholder sure is hypnotic when it moves.

[Mirishka]

3rd person stuff never fails to be annoying, but the post was amusing otherwise.

[Glorious Leader]

Diablo is a much simpler game across the board. You have a couple of buttons and a variety of abilities to map to those buttons, but in combat, you can really only do two things.

There's a high potential skill cap, because the margins for error were razor thin when racing for first kills, but for most players, it's a game about loot.

The complexity of WOW has never really come from the talent systems; you have to understand those to play on a very basic level, and they never worked as a mechanism for customization. Blizzard's new system essentially acknowledges that trees like the game has historically used fail structurally in a multiplayer game, because the loadout must always be optimal for a player to be competitive.

Moving all the modifiers related to throughput into the spec and limiting talents to utility makes talents themselves less important; a 4.X paladin with no talents cannot tank or heal, whereas a 5.x paladin gets the tanking kit as soon as he selects "protection" or the healing kit as soon as he takes "holy." But that's fine.

Honestly, in terms of time and demands, to play WoW at an even middling level is pretty demanding. Raid fights are complex enterprises that involve coordinating a lot of people. Heroic modes are some of the hardest challenges in gaming. There is nothing else out there that would stall out gamers like the people who do heroic world firsts for dozens of hours or hundreds of attempts. The challenge modes sound extremely difficult as well. People who claim the game has been "dumbed down" will have a chance to prove it by getting those gold medals in a couple of weeks, but I won't be holding my breath.

And the same acknowledgment was made about diablo 3. The same principle for the changes in talents in diablo 3 is at the heart of the talent change in wow. You can't praise one for it's efficacy and then laugh at the other one. The implementation of the wow talents may have been better but that's because they amount to litltle more than utility talents and for the most part have no bearing on anything important like how people do damage. The talents in diablo are another matter entirely. Never the less both groups had the same initial design goal, give players choice and variety in talent builds.

[lupito]

And the same acknowledgment was made about diablo 3. The same principle for the changes in talents in diablo 3 is at the heart of the talent change in wow. You can't praise one for it's efficacy and then laugh at the other one. The implementation of the wow talents may have been better but that's because they amount to litltle more than utility talents and for the most part have no bearing on anything important like how people do damage. The talents in diablo are another matter entirely. Never the less both groups had the same initial design goal, give players choice and variety in talent builds.

It wasn't the talent system that made D3 bland. Poor itemization, lack of interesting stats and unbeatable affixes did.

[Crawford]

And the same acknowledgment was made about diablo 3. The same principle for the changes in talents in diablo 3 is at the heart of the talent change in wow. You can't praise one for it's efficacy and then laugh at the other one. The implementation of the wow talents may have been better but that's because they amount to litltle more than utility talents and for the most part have no bearing on anything important like how people do damage. The talents in diablo are another matter entirely. Never the less both groups had the same initial design goal, give players choice and variety in talent builds.

"Anything important" is a matter of dispute. Obviously, the feral druid's choice between Charge and a 15% movement speed buff or my choice between Mortal Coil and Howl of Terror don't impact DPS, but if they did, they wouldn't be choices. Some of the talents seem to matter a lot more for PvP than for raiding, but CC, mobility, damage mitigation and self-healing might become pretty important in MoP if you're trying to make medal times in challenge dungeons.

And even if you find the new talents uninteresting, the old talents that dictated throughput weren't interesting either. Anything that directly affects DPS is not a choice, because maximizing DPS is just a math problem. There's just the right way and the wrong way to do it. If two things that affect throughput are exactly equal, then the choice doesn't matter. If one is superior, then there's not really a choice. You don't get to decide whether you prefer crit or haste. You have a stat priority that maximizes your DPS, and you either gear and forge that way, or your guild is likely to replace you with someone who isn't intentionally bad.

If you prefer the old method, you are saying that you prefered to "choose" to invest 5 talent points in "Increases your shadow damage 2/4/6/8/10%" rather than getting "Affliction: (Passive) Your Shadow Spells deal 10% more damage." But there's really no difference. All those choices were really implicit in being an affliction warlock or whatever, if you were even semi-competent at the game. It's just ridiculous to say that depth in the game comes from the talent trees. The only time I ever bother to change my talents is when there's a significant enough class revision that my points get refunded. The depth has always come from the class mechanics. Now those mechanics are automatically part of your spec instead of your talents. They're still there, though.

Diablo has no "spec" for its classes. You have a bunch of abilities, and you have two mouse buttons. Some of the customization options are pretty much always wrong, but you can change on the fly and the game is more forgiving than WoW's raiding up until Inferno. Also, no other players are depending on your loadout being optimal, so it doesn't matter as much. Diablo is also a simpler game with simpler content. In WoW, I've got four action bars full of abilities that I use. In Diablo, I have two mouse buttons. WoW requires fairly precise movement. In Diablo you move by clicking the place you want to go on the screen. It isn't Diablo's talent design that makes it simple. It's just a simpler game.

[Deleted]

Very funny :-)

[Daedelus]

If you prefer the old method, you are saying that you prefered to "choose" to invest 5 talent points in "Increases your shadow damage 2/4/6/8/10%" rather than getting "Affliction: (Passive) Your Shadow Spells deal 10% more damage." But there's really no difference. All those choices were really implicit in being an affliction warlock or whatever, if you were even semi-competent at the game. It's just ridiculous to say that depth in the game comes from the talent trees. The only time I ever bother to change my talents is when there's a significant enough class revision that my points get refunded. The depth has always come from the class mechanics. Now those mechanics are automatically part of your spec instead of your talents. They're still there, though.

Everyone whining about the new talent system should be made to read this paragraph until they understand exactly what it means.

I changed spec once in Cata. Once.

[bloodwulf]

"Anything important" is a matter of dispute. Obviously, the feral druid's choice between Charge and a 15% movement speed buff or my choice between Mortal Coil and Howl of Terror don't impact DPS, but if they did, they wouldn't be choices. Some of the talents seem to matter a lot more for PvP than for raiding, but CC, mobility, damage mitigation and self-healing might become pretty important in MoP if you're trying to make medal times in challenge dungeons.

And even if you find the new talents uninteresting, the old talents that dictated throughput weren't interesting either. Anything that directly affects DPS is not a choice, because maximizing DPS is just a math problem. There's just the right way and the wrong way to do it. If two things that affect throughput are exactly equal, then the choice doesn't matter. If one is superior, then there's not really a choice. You don't get to decide whether you prefer crit or haste. You have a stat priority that maximizes your DPS, and you either gear and forge that way, or your guild is likely to replace you with someone who isn't intentionally bad.

If you prefer the old method, you are saying that you prefered to "choose" to invest 5 talent points in "Increases your shadow damage 2/4/6/8/10%" rather than getting "Affliction: (Passive) Your Shadow Spells deal 10% more damage." But there's really no difference. All those choices were really implicit in being an affliction warlock or whatever, if you were even semi-competent at the game. It's just ridiculous to say that depth in the game comes from the talent trees. The only time I ever bother to change my talents is when there's a significant enough class revision that my points get refunded. The depth has always come from the class mechanics. Now those mechanics are automatically part of your spec instead of your talents. They're still there, though.

Diablo has no "spec" for its classes. You have a bunch of abilities, and you have two mouse buttons. Some of the customization options are pretty much always wrong, but you can change on the fly and the game is more forgiving than WoW's raiding up until Inferno. Also, no other players are depending on your loadout being optimal, so it doesn't matter as much. Diablo is also a simpler game with simpler content. In WoW, I've got four action bars full of abilities that I use. In Diablo, I have two mouse buttons. WoW requires fairly precise movement. In Diablo you move by clicking the place you want to go on the screen. It isn't Diablo's talent design that makes it simple. It's just a simpler game.

Crawford, i came to this thread expecting whining, what i got was a masterfully written piece of satirical truth of the levels of Colbert or Stewart. You sir are brilliant.
/salute.

[Marahdeka]

Awesome post!

[Crawford]

R

Crawford, i came to this thread expecting whining, what i got was a masterfully written piece of satirical truth of the levels of Colbert or Stewart. You sir are brilliant.
/salute.

I actually think MOP is looking pretty solid. I have been mostly out of WoW since last year, and I am looking forward to playing again. I'm not sure I am into organized raiding anymore, so I am glad there's all the other stuff to do. I think the talents are fine, and I hope they support the increased prominence of utility and survivability by making that stuff matter in PvE again.

[Seriss]

<So much epicness>

I love you. I almost fell out of my chair from laughing. It's all so true. And I will never use that beholder pet on my warlock (yay for Grimoire of Sacrifice! Seriously, yay. I've hated playing my warlock ever since my imp - or other demon if applicable - had to do more than being phaseshifted and providing a stamina buff for the tank) because... well... I think I can't play when rolling on the floor.

[Glorious Leader]

"Anything important" is a matter of dispute. Obviously, the feral druid's choice between Charge and a 15% movement speed buff or my choice between Mortal Coil and Howl of Terror don't impact DPS, but if they did, they wouldn't be choices. Some of the talents seem to matter a lot more for PvP than for raiding, but CC, mobility, damage mitigation and self-healing might become pretty important in MoP if you're trying to make medal times in challenge dungeons.

And even if you find the new talents uninteresting, the old talents that dictated throughput weren't interesting either. Anything that directly affects DPS is not a choice, because maximizing DPS is just a math problem. There's just the right way and the wrong way to do it. If two things that affect throughput are exactly equal, then the choice doesn't matter. If one is superior, then there's not really a choice. You don't get to decide whether you prefer crit or haste. You have a stat priority that maximizes your DPS, and you either gear and forge that way, or your guild is likely to replace you with someone who isn't intentionally bad.

If you prefer the old method, you are saying that you prefered to "choose" to invest 5 talent points in "Increases your shadow damage 2/4/6/8/10%" rather than getting "Affliction: (Passive) Your Shadow Spells deal 10% more damage." But there's really no difference. All those choices were really implicit in being an affliction warlock or whatever, if you were even semi-competent at the game. It's just ridiculous to say that depth in the game comes from the talent trees. The only time I ever bother to change my talents is when there's a significant enough class revision that my points get refunded. The depth has always come from the class mechanics. Now those mechanics are automatically part of your spec instead of your talents. They're still there, though.

Diablo has no "spec" for its classes. You have a bunch of abilities, and you have two mouse buttons. Some of the customization options are pretty much always wrong, but you can change on the fly and the game is more forgiving than WoW's raiding up until Inferno. Also, no other players are depending on your loadout being optimal, so it doesn't matter as much. Diablo is also a simpler game with simpler content. In WoW, I've got four action bars full of abilities that I use. In Diablo, I have two mouse buttons. WoW requires fairly precise movement. In Diablo you move by clicking the place you want to go on the screen. It isn't Diablo's talent design that makes it simple. It's just a simpler game.

Again your completely missing the point and I'm not sure why. I'm not really attempting to compare the two games in any fashion, other than for the simple fact that in both cases the developers sought to give the players more freedom to choose abilities and dispel the old talent systems. You can make a case that one failed and one didn't but both groups sought to achieve the same goal and I'm not sure why you think it's appropriate to bring it up without making your argument have just a tinge of irony. The circle jerk about how awesome the wow talent system is now was entirely unnecessary but i noticed you managed to ham it up there some how. The talents for the most part are indeed bland and uniteresting and amount to little more than utility talents. Hell even the diablo abilities are more interesting even if they get min maxed at least they do something to my play style. At least I feel powerful for taking them.

To be honest I prefer the wotlk style. Yes some geek on a forum told me what was best but who cares? So what? Do you always listen to things you read on forums? No you still had the FREEDOM TO CHOOSE talents as you liked them nobody really stoped you from doing it. We've neither gained nor lost depth, I still don't touch my talent trees very much or at all really. What's the point? If everything is just as valid as the other I could pick any single one and it doesn't matter. If you pvp it makes a huge difference though and the system is clearly geared towards those players. For pve players the talents (for the most part) do nothing for you. If they did then you'd pick that talent. Even utility talents can be min maxed.

[Crawford]

Again your completely missing the point and I'm not sure why. I'm not really attempting to compare the two games in any fashion, other than for the simple fact that in both cases the developers sought to give the players more freedom to choose abilities and dispel the old talent systems. You can make a case that one failed and one didn't but both groups sought to achieve the same goal and I'm not sure why you think it's appropriate to bring it up without making your argument have just a tinge of irony. The circle jerk about how awesome the wow talent system is now was entirely unnecessary but i noticed you managed to ham it up there some how. The talents for the most part are indeed bland and uniteresting and amount to little more than utility talents. Hell even the diablo abilities are more interesting even if they get min maxed at least they do something to my play style. At least I feel powerful for taking them.

Diablo is just a totally different kind of game. If the Diablo ability design were mapped onto WoW, the game would let your mage try to use a rotation of Arcane Blast+Fireblast+Ice Lance. There's nothing like a rotation, and maximizing efficiency is a lot less integral to performance. There are some synergies among abilities, but the game doesn't revolve around throughput. In fact, mobility, survivability and crowd control are all pretty important in Diablo, possibly more important than raw damage, since you often can't stand still or you get surrounded on harder difficulties.

Diablo is just very faithful to its original 1990's roots, and its two-button control scheme seems simplistic by modern standards. The depth or lack thereof isn't a function of the talent tree; the game gets old because it starts to feel like there's nothing to it beyond frantic mouse-clicking.

To be honest I prefer the wotlk style. Yes some geek on a forum told me what was best but who cares? So what? Do you always listen to things you read on forums? No you still had the FREEDOM TO CHOOSE talents as you liked them nobody really stoped you from doing it. We've neither gained nor lost depth, I still don't touch my talent trees very much or at all really. What's the point? If everything is just as valid as the other I could pick any single one and it doesn't matter. If you pvp it makes a huge difference though and the system is clearly geared towards those players. For pve players the talents (for the most part) do nothing for you. If they did then you'd pick that talent. Even utility talents can be min maxed.

Blizzard's controversial move is to decide that talent trees as we know them fail for massively multiplayer games. The reason they fail is because optimized builds were not optional for any sort of organized play.

When you talk about "some geek on a forum" you're implying that the correct build is just the geek's opinion, or that the geek might be wrong. But there is no room for differences of opinion when we're talking about throughput. The geek is saying: "2+2=4" and your response is: "That's just your opinion." Math is not an opinion. If you choose to deviate from the optimal build, then you are choosing to be bad at the game. Nobody will want to raid with you. Nobody will want to PvP with you. Your poor choices will be reflected in your meters, and you'll be kicked out of LFR for low DPS.

So there's really no choice. You either go online and google your optimized build or you run a suboptimal build and you suck at the game. So you're falling back on the argument that the choices don't matter because none of them are clearly "wrong." But those choices will matter in different contexts. I am certain that mobility, CC, and life-regen will all be useful in challenge dungeons, and may possibly be made relevant in raids if more movement and control requirements are incorporated into encounter design.

[Chonar]

I assume Crawford's battle pet team will consist solemnly out of a team of Willies.

Willy's.

[Chirri]

I woke my dog up laughing, Crawford. Why's your post count so low? You make the world a better place. I assume. After reading some of your disturbingly clear and (what I consider) well reasoned responses to people's arguments.

Also. I remember freaking out over the rear end of Beholders back in BC. All of my friends told me I was nuts. Now I'll be sure my Warlock shoves her Beholder in front of everyone as often as possible. Thank you.

[Crawford]

I assume Crawford's battle pet team will consist solemnly out of a team of Willies.

Willy's.

We all need to lobby Blizzard to make sure Willy is a rare quality pet. I don't think he currently is.

[Pancaspe]

Very enjoyable read Mr Warlock!